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Robindaybird posted:I remember Popeye having decent slapstick - and Olive Oyl had ZERO redeeming qualities that'd make her so attractive to the sailors. Olive Oyl is female, I think that's all the criteria sailors really need.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:04
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raditts posted:Olive Oyl is female, I think that's all the criteria sailors really need. Eventually Bluto and Popeye will figure out that they're just using Olive Oyl as a bridge to get to each other.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:08
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K. Waste posted:Eventually Bluto and Popeye will figure out that they're just using Olive Oyl as a bridge to get to each other. I'm sure there's fan art out there somewhere confirming that.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:16
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raditts posted:Olive Oyl is female, I think that's all the criteria sailors really need. Correction - her being vaguely human-shaped is more than sufficient. Remember, this was the inspiration for mermaid myths.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:26
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K. Waste posted:Eventually Bluto and Popeye will figure out that they're just using Olive Oyl as a bridge to get to each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCcYyB3OSQc
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Jun 19, 2014 18:14
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Popeye is one of those difficult properties whose appeal is largely tied to its original time period, so when modernizing it (either as part of the narrative or just part of the metanarrative) you definitely have to walk a very fine line. However, The Three Stooges were even more so and that recent movie actually ended up being better than it had any right to be, so you never know.
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Jun 19, 2014 20:06
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Sir Lemming posted:Popeye is one of those difficult properties whose appeal is largely tied to its original time period, so when modernizing it (either as part of the narrative or just part of the metanarrative) you definitely have to walk a very fine line. I don't see why it needs to be modernized any more than, say, Tintin was. It's not as though it's live action, and even that's been done already.
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Jun 19, 2014 20:23
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raditts posted:I don't see why it needs to be modernized any more than, say, Tintin was. It's not as though it's live action, and even that's been done already. Plus Flapjack and, to a lesser extent, Spongebob Squarepants have shown that grody old sea dogs are timeless entertainment for kids.
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Jun 19, 2014 20:31
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raditts posted:I don't see why it needs to be modernized any more than, say, Tintin was. It's not as though it's live action, and even that's been done already. Yeah, but it'll still be "modern" in a meta way, just by virtue of being made today. I'm confident that Tartatovsky won't do anything obviously stupid to the core character. It's more just a tone thing. It has to be something "new" in some sense in order to be worth making at all. But I also wouldn't want the tone to be totally different. It's not impossible, I just hope they recognize the challenge they're facing.
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Jun 19, 2014 20:46
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A whole week without any Dragon2 discussion? Sigh, I guess Dreamworks is doomed.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:24
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Waffleman_ posted:Genndy Tartakovsky is making a Popeye movie! Here's the first image. I think it's a bit blown up from a promotional flyer Sony is using at a licensing expo. Finally realized what I found strange about the character designs here. It's that they have distinct white eyes rather than just mostly suggested eyes like in the original cartoons.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:45
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Doctor Bishop posted:Finally realized what I found strange about the character designs here. It's that they have distinct white eyes rather than just mostly suggested eyes like in the original cartoons. Jeez, you're right. Popeye has 'pop eyes.' I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's just promotional/concept art, but a good deal of what makes Popeye unique is that he didn't really obey any of what we now think of as being the conventional rules of how you design a cartoon hero. His eyes are beady, his eyebrows low, his stride hunched... He could be the villain, but this is the whole point of the cartoon. Even when later versions began giving him bigger eyes, I don't recall it ever being that pronounced. They've also made his chin significantly smaller. He looks like he could be voiced by Jim Carrey. Don't get me wrong, I think Jim Carrey would be a fantastic choice to voice Popeye... but a Popeye who looks like this: 
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Jun 20, 2014 01:59
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Shaocaholica posted:A whole week without any Dragon2 discussion? Sigh, I guess Dreamworks is doomed.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:02
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K. Waste posted:
just get Robin williams to come back 
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Jun 20, 2014 05:51
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Shaocaholica posted:A whole week without any Dragon2 discussion? Sigh, I guess Dreamworks is doomed. I asked for it to have it's own thread because it's not out in my country for another couple of weeks and Pick kindly obliged.
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Jun 20, 2014 10:41
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If they make it like the Fleischer studios cartoons I'm so in.
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Jun 20, 2014 11:22
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Kikka posted:If they make it like the Fleischer studios cartoons I'm so in. And the closer this gets us to a legit Betty Boop feature, the better. I want a feature length version of Betty Boop for President (that isn't a cheap, colorized compilation) dammit! She's change we can Boo-boo-pidoo-believe in!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVcPRr_ounc
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Jun 20, 2014 11:45
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How'd you like the scoop on Pete Docter's Inside Out? That'd be nice, wouldn't it? http://www.hitfix.com/in-contention/pixars-inside-out-has-strong-personal-and-emotional-origins-for-director-pete-docter/single-page quote:[Inside Out is] a personal response to the natural, tangible, relatable world around Docter. He confided that his daughter, Ellie (who voiced young Ellie in "Up"), was so full of the typical energy of youth when she was a little girl. But when she hit the age of 12, something changed. The overcast of adolescence and the complex emotions that come with it had begun to take over. "It was hard for me as a parent because I felt at times that her childhood joy was gone," Docter said. "I didn't want her to be withdrawn and sad. I wanted her to stay the way she always was. What happened to her? What was going on inside her head?" It sounds VERY cool.
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Jun 20, 2014 14:30
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Just reading that first paragraph reminds me of how Pixar people have described their previous, more passion-driven films (Finding Nemo, Wall-E, etc. as opposed to Cars, or maybe Brave, which started out with a really personal story but ended up getting dragged out for years and muddled by multiple views), which makes me really excited to see it.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:09
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K. Waste posted:And the closer this gets us to a legit Betty Boop feature, the better. I want a feature length version of Betty Boop for President (that isn't a cheap, colorized compilation) dammit! She's change we can Boo-boo-pidoo-believe in!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVcPRr_ounc Betty Boop probably wouldn't work well in a feature setting, but a theatrical compilation of the best shorts would be awesome. Especially since Paramount had most of them scanned in 4K over the last few years. If you've seen the Blu-Rays, they look incredible.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:11
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K. Waste posted:And the closer this gets us to a legit Betty Boop feature, the better. I want a feature length version of Betty Boop for President (that isn't a cheap, colorized compilation) dammit! She's change we can Boo-boo-pidoo-believe in!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVcPRr_ounc Popeye is a grizzled sailor who beats the poo poo out of people, that's something that has cross-cultural appeal. Betty Boop doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that anyone would really want to see more of outside of like the 1940s-50s.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:12
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raditts posted:Popeye is a grizzled sailor who beats the poo poo out of people, that's something that has cross-cultural appeal. Betty Boop doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that anyone would really want to see more of outside of like the 1940s-50s. Egbert Souse posted:Betty Boop probably wouldn't work well in a feature setting. Any number of characters who were specifically written for comedic shorts wouldn't work well in a feature setting. There's nothing in particular about either Popeye or Betty Boop that implicitly lends itself to translate from the former to the latter. Coy sex appeal and beating the poo poo out of people are just two halves of the same coin, and both characters are unique products of the times in which they were conceived that make no logical sense in a modern setting, except as nostalgia or irony. The reason Popeye has survived the tide of cultural history and Betty Boop hasn't isn't because of Betty. It's because of sexism.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:52
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redcheval posted:Just reading that first paragraph reminds me of how Pixar people have described their previous, more passion-driven films (Finding Nemo, Wall-E, etc. as opposed to Cars, or maybe Brave, which started out with a really personal story but ended up getting dragged out for years and muddled by multiple views), which makes me really excited to see it. Cars was a passion-driven film, there's even a documentary on the DVD explaining how it was inspired by the Route 66 trips John Lasseter took with his family. The town in that movie has loads of stuff directly taken from the things he saw there.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:32
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K. Waste posted:Any number of characters who were specifically written for comedic shorts wouldn't work well in a feature setting. There's nothing in particular about either Popeye or Betty Boop that implicitly lends itself to translate from the former to the latter. Coy sex appeal and beating the poo poo out of people are just two halves of the same coin, and both characters are unique products of the times in which they were conceived that make no logical sense in a modern setting, except as nostalgia or irony. It might also be that a lot of Betty Boop shorts were basically extended jokes on how Betty avoids being raped.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:42
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Corek posted:Cars was a passion-driven film, there's even a documentary on the DVD explaining how it was inspired by the Route 66 trips John Lasseter took with his family. The town in that movie has loads of stuff directly taken from the things he saw there. It's also why Cars' moral was a weak baby boomer nostalgia circlejerk, so I'm kind of worried that a passion project based on "I just want my little princess back  " paternalism could be something similarly weak and off-putting to its target audience.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:52
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chthonic bell posted:It might also be that a lot of Betty Boop shorts were basically extended jokes on how Betty avoids being raped. The effect of the feminist movement on American consciousness definitely has something to do with Betty being marginalized as an icon. But it's also certainly sexism. Popeye's whole schtick is rescuing Olive Oyl from rape. But because he's a man rescuing the damsel in distress, it becomes more palatable as a traditional hero narrative. You're still being asked to find cartoonish humor in a scenario that involves rape and violence. The independent variable between Betty Boop and Popeye is not narrative content. It's gender.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:05
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chthonic bell posted:It might also be that a lot of Betty Boop shorts were basically extended jokes on how Betty avoids being raped. And on her gradual evolution from dog-woman to human woman. Aside from this, Betty Boop's entire character is based around being a parody of a 1920s-era flapper, which makes no sense outside of its temporal / cultural context because nobody alive today has any real-life context for what the gently caress a flapper is or how they act. It has nothing to do with "this world so sexist" at all or whatever K.Waste is trying to assert, it's just that it's as out of place today as vaudeville. To put it simply: You know the feeling of second-hand embarrassment you get when you see a commercial where the people filming still think what's "cool" is putting on a pair of shades, rapping horribly, and then tightly crossing their arms like it's 1990? Betty Boop is that plus 60-70 years. raditts fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 18:07
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raditts posted:And on her gradual evolution from dog-woman to human woman. A significant part of Betty's transition from dog to woman has to do with the fact that she was originally conceived, like most female characters at the time, as a love interest to the male star, Bimbo. But Bimbo was lame. Betty became the more interesting character. I'm still not certain what Betty's status as a flapper has to do with the supposed difficulty in translating her for a modern audience as opposed to Popeye. I get there are still sailors, but every generation has its own variation on the flapper. Relatively independent, fashion conscious women still exist. I could walk into a boutique right now and probably find some article of fashion that refers back to the flappers, to free love, to punk. Style and aesthetic aren't nearly as temporally shackled as you're constructing them to be, especially in this day and age. I even get your point. Obviously, Popeye, even though he's pretty much moved from being a reference to sailor stereotypes to being the premier icon of those now outdated stereotypes, is a simple and iconic enough of a character that translating him for a new audience is easier. But why is it easier? Because male cartoon characters are far less likely to be defined solely by the attributes of the times in which they are created. The exceptions are characters like Mini Mouse who, again, is mostly like what Betty was originally conceived of as being -- merely a negatively defined Mickey/Bimbo. It's not at all a stretch to call this an example of sexism or phallocentrism. It's a tad bizarre to me that there's incredulity to the concept that a woman star/icon can both represent and be a victim of patriarchy. Betty is fetishized, but she is also the protagonist. Not only our gaze, but our identification is with her. Her constant escaping rape serves exactly the same function as Popeye eating the spinach and getting iron strength: the cartoon overcomes a seemingly impossible obstacle in order to entertain a spectator (man or woman) for whom this isn't necessarily possible, whether because of misogyny, or the Great Depression, or corrupt businessmen, or mobsters. In this context, Betty became a rare positively defined woman, one who could be a princess, a politician, a sailor, whatever, but also be more than those things. I understand that you yourself are not being sexist when you say Betty Boop is out of date in a way Popeye isn't, in the same way that I'm not saying that Betty Boop should be construed as some kind of protofeminist icon. But you yourself betrayed the cultural and historical sexism that makes Popeye immortal and Betty Boop obsolete when you observed that he is "is a grizzled sailor who beats the poo poo out of people" while Betty's role doesn't even warrant definition because it's already implicit that she has no "cross-cultural appeal." (The latter isn't even true. Flapper is definitely chic, especially post-Luhrmann's Gatsby.) This has something to do with what we value culturally, especially in regards to storytelling. Popeye is still defined positively as a fluid icon. Betty Boop is 'old and lame,' without reservations. Frankly, that last analogy is terrible. Being corny and obnoxious transcends time. If there's a difference between me looking at the guy "putting on a pair of shades, rapping horribly, and then tightly crossing their arms" in the '90s and now, then the embarrassment should not be secondhand, but mutual. That guy would have been just as corny then as now. Furthermore, one could level the same analogy against virtually any cultural icon that had an incarnation divorced from the period in which it was initially popular, including Popeye. It narrowly defines 'cool' as "what's popular and contemporary," but leaves out the part where there are actually multiple ways to be cool. "Movies, cabarets, and jazz" can be cool. A belligerent sailor can be cool. If we've successfully determined that there's significantly more of a demand for a male-driven film in the case of the latter than a woman-driven film in the case of the former within a culture, or less incentive to create it, that's absolutely evidence of cultural sexism and phallocentrism. Because cool doesn't solely have to do with iconography. You need to be able to identify with 'cool.' I think you're right; there is less of a demand for a Betty Boop movie because she's seen as uncool and culturally irrelevant. I'm saying that this is a problem of identification that isn't just because of fashion and music, but also because of a persistent cultural attitude that frames male character-driven properties as implicitly, universally accessible, while female character-driven properties must virtually always be young and fresh.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:57
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K. Waste posted:The effect of the feminist movement on American consciousness definitely has something to do with Betty being marginalized as an icon. I didn't actually see it but they made a direct-to-DVD CGI Popeye movie back in the 00s and the way they updated Olive Oyl's character was having her be marriage-crazy towards a reluctant Popeye, effectively reversing the power dynamic.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:07
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Corek posted:Cars was a passion-driven film, there's even a documentary on the DVD explaining how it was inspired by the Route 66 trips John Lasseter took with his family. The town in that movie has loads of stuff directly taken from the things he saw there. Yeah, I've seen it a few times, I have a DVD copy but don't return to it very often (nowhere near as much as the rest of Pixar's library). I feel like Cars and the sequel were very much driven by Lasseter's individual passion, and his own interest in the subjects the film explored, and it ended up being nailed down to two specific topics; the death of small towns and a love of, well, cars. I'm not discounting that those are actually really valid topics to explore, but I think the movie was a lot weaker because those things are by no means universal, and it doesn't really go much for the emotional resonance that's characteristic of a lot of Pixar work. Finding Nemo stemmed from the experience of realizing you're an overprotective parent, and both Marlin's and Nemo's motives and emotions give it a broad range of emotional hook. Monsters, Inc. is a great example of this too, I think, since 'monsters in the closet'/childhood nightmares are pretty universally experienced feelings, and the relationship between Sully and Boo has a lot of emotions tied up in it. Pixar seems to do its best when it's exploring the intimate relationships between people (or robots, or rats, talking dogs, haha!). I guess the difference being that a lot of Pixar's best work, in my opinion, stems from some kind of almost average human experience that someone had, and exploring that, which I would bet also plays into why Cars is considered kind of an aberration in their catalogue.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:09
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K. Waste posted:I understand that you yourself are not being sexist when you say Betty Boop is out of date in a way Popeye isn't, in the same way that I'm not saying that Betty Boop should be construed as some kind of protofeminist icon. But you yourself betrayed the cultural and historical sexism that makes Popeye immortal and Betty Boop obsolete when you observed that he is "is a grizzled sailor who beats the poo poo out of people" while Betty's role doesn't even warrant definition because it's already implicit that she has no "cross-cultural appeal." The grizzled sailor archetype is totally still a thing, for example why do you think Deadliest Catch was such a popular show? It wasn't for the hot fish-catching action. I mean I'm not saying you're totally wrong, but if you want to make a case for popular icons being less popular over time on account of their gender, you could do a lot better than a character as tied to a certain fad in a certain time period as Betty Boop. quote:(The latter isn't even true. Flapper is definitely chic, especially post-Luhrmann's Gatsby.) This has something to do with what we value culturally, especially in regards to storytelling. Popeye is still defined positively as a fluid icon. Betty Boop is 'old and lame,' without reservations. Hahah, what? On what loving planet is "flapper" still chic, unless you're going to cheat and say that hipster or MPDG is the new "flapper." quote:Frankly, that last analogy is terrible. Being corny and obnoxious transcends time. If there's a difference between me looking at the guy "putting on a pair of shades, rapping horribly, and then tightly crossing their arms" in the '90s and now, then the embarrassment should not be secondhand, but mutual. That guy would have been just as corny then as now. I'm not really sure you remember the '90s. raditts fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 21:48
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...of SCIENCE! posted:I didn't actually see it but they made a direct-to-DVD CGI Popeye movie back in the 00s and the way they updated Olive Oyl's character was having her be marriage-crazy towards a reluctant Popeye, effectively reversing the power dynamic. Comparing Olive Oyl for President to Betty Boop for President is fascinating. On the one hand, Popeye sees the utopia that Olive Oyl will create, and becomes a champion for women's rights, campaigning for the first woman independent party president. On the other hand, most of Olive Oyl's conception of a perfect America is almost entirely predicated on... you guessed it! Marriage, fashion, children, and maternity. The most radical she gets is basically by just fulfilling Popeye's sadomasochistic fantasy: the 'woman on top' of the business ladder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5wDVNbgD5E What is Betty Boop's platform? Redistribution of the wealth and government sponsored renewal and arts programs!
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Jun 20, 2014 21:54
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Anyone know anything about this "Justin and the Knights of Valor"? It looks painfully generic, but one could be surprised.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:18
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It's like DirecTV exclusive or something and Antonio Banderas is a producer I dunno.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgjJoSxhaNQ I mean, the animation isn't Hoodwinked levels, but it's pushin' it. It basically looks like Shrek looks now, and that movie hasn't aged that well visually at all. (Some may disagree, but I find that with most of DreamWorks early features, and it's just as prominent in Pixar's catalogue, but, you know, story.) There's also no way to get around that it's transparently borrowing from those movies, to say nothing of How to Train Your Dragon. But you never know. I'm not a believer in writing off direct-to-video stuff as a middle shelf knock off of 'A' theater pictures, though that conviction has run me afoul often.
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Jun 21, 2014 04:55
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Going off of the amount of merchandise they currently move, Betty Boop is wayyyy more culturally relevant then Popeye. Betty Boop is incredibly common on t-shirts and such, she's almost like an older woman's Hello Kitty. People remember Popeye's cartoons better, probably, but I guarantee you I could go to Wal-Mart right now and find probably ten things with Betty Boop and some kind of clever text or something. I can't remember the last time I saw a Popeye t-shirt.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:11
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Man, that popeye spinach bubblegum poo poo was the best. Also, Popeye is a good cartoon, with lots of funny slapstick opportunities, but it's definitely a product of it's time and I hope they find a good way to update it.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:20
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K. Waste posted:What is Betty Boop's platform? Redistribution of the wealth and government sponsored renewal and arts programs! Well, poo poo, she's got my vote.
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Jun 21, 2014 14:38
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raditts posted:The grizzled sailor archetype is totally still a thing, for example why do you think Deadliest Catch was such a popular show? It wasn't for the hot fish-catching action. I mean I'm not saying you're totally wrong, but if you want to make a case for popular icons being less popular over time on account of their gender, you could do a lot better than a character as tied to a certain fad in a certain time period as Betty Boop. Hot fish-catching action is definitely a part of the show's draw. It's actually integral, because while plenty of boring personalities have carried reality shows, that 'real life' fish-catching action provides a sense of authenticity that supports the drama of the show. Popeye isn't like that. He doesn't need to be an authentic fisherman or sailor because that's not the point. His being a stereotype of sailors is a joke unto itself. But it's not the defining aspect of his character, as it is for the 'working stiffs' on Deadliest Catch or in Leviathan, because their job is the only reason we have drama. Popeye is almost exclusively defined by his personality, by who he is and not necessarily what he does. Betty Boop is the same. She is a parody of a flapper. But that does not mean that's how she's exclusively defined, nor does it lend itself to a justification of why she's necessarily less cultural accessible or adaptable than Popeye. She is also a cartoon, and can be anything. quote:Hahah, what? On what loving planet is "flapper" still chic, unless you're going to cheat and say that hipster or MPDG is the new "flapper." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/womens-flapper-dresses_n_1373304.html#s802093&title=Forever_21_Knitted http://www.collectorsweekly.com/womens-clothing/1920s-1930s http://wwd2.wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion-features/roaring-chic-6913607 quote:I'm not really sure you remember the '90s. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with the point I was making. Travis343 posted:Going off of the amount of merchandise they currently move, Betty Boop is wayyyy more culturally relevant then Popeye. Betty Boop is incredibly common on t-shirts and such, she's almost like an older woman's Hello Kitty. People remember Popeye's cartoons better, probably, but I guarantee you I could go to Wal-Mart right now and find probably ten things with Betty Boop and some kind of clever text or something. I can't remember the last time I saw a Popeye t-shirt. What's critical to note here is that this doesn't override the disjuncture between Boop's persistent popularity and the lack of a serious attempt to adapt her to any significant storytelling format since 1988's Who Framed Roger Rabbit, where the joke was even that the last Betty Boop cartoon was released nearly a decade earlier, and that Boop's 'It Girl' had been replaced by the post-Second World War femme fatale. As ...of SCIENCE! pointed out, there was a feature-length Popeye as early as 2004. Popeye is remembered and marketed as a character. Boop is primarily remembered and marketed as a fetish. The ultimate irony is that Popeye made his debut in a Betty Boop cartoon.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:13
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Yeah referring to Flappers as currently chic isn't absurd at all
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Jun 21, 2014 16:50
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