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iminay posted:I don't agree that the Primarchs (or even the emperor) at the Heresy time are fully aware of what Chaos entails. There is a definitive knowledge gap between "current" 40k fluff and "horus heresy" era fluff, there is in inquisition yet, no contact with the Eldar black library etc. I think that they know that there are individual intelligences in the warp (daemons), but basically assume they're just another type of extra-dimensional alien and not that they're actually also part of massive gestalt warp entities with overreaching intelligence able to comprehend and interact with the material world (i.e. the Chaos 'gods'). Also it's possible that the Librarius, while permitted by the Emperor, was actually drawn up by Magnus and a few other primarchs and their favored psykers and that the Emperor didn't design them and their rituals and practices first-hand. Which means that when there's accusations of sorcery (i.e. consorting with warp intelligences) and other bad practices or outside influences the Emperor, who is busy with other matters, just tells them to shut that poo poo down and he'll deal with it later, sometime after his top-secret plan to give the finger to the emerging gods of the warp. After all, other psykers that belong to organizations already directly set up or vetted by the Emperor, like the astropaths and the navigators, are left alone.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:11
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iminay posted:I don't agree that the Primarchs (or even the emperor) at the Heresy time are fully aware of what Chaos entails. There is a definitive knowledge gap between "current" 40k fluff and "horus heresy" era fluff, there is in inquisition yet, no contact with the Eldar black library etc. The Emperor definitely knew about Chaos. It's ambiguous but it's been referenced several times that he made a deal with the Chaos gods in his creation of the Primarchs then backstabbed them. Plus, aren't there some short stories with the Emperor and his deals with the Eldar?.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:48
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pentyne posted:The Emperor definitely knew about Chaos. It's ambiguous but it's been referenced several times that he made a deal with the Chaos gods in his creation of the Primarchs then backstabbed them. Plus, aren't there some short stories with the Emperor and his deals with the Eldar?. I'm pretty sure that the whole "emperor made a deal with chaos" thing was said by a servant of chaos. So i wouldn't take that at face value.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:50
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I'm pretty sure that the whole "emperor made a deal with chaos" thing was said by a servant of chaos. So i wouldn't take that at face value. Nah, Vengeful Spirit pretty much explicitly states the emperor went and stole power from the Chaos gods before becoming the Emperor. Horus does something similar, though I doubt it's theft that time.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:55
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I'm pretty sure that the whole "emperor made a deal with chaos" thing was said by a servant of chaos. So i wouldn't take that at face value. Go and read Vengeful Spirit, it's far more clearly said than in The First Heretic. That the Emperor used the Warp and science to create the Primarchs is not a new idea and has appeared before, but that he had made a deal with the Chaos Gods and cheated them? New plot line and one I don't like a bit.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:14
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UberJumper posted:You are right about the order existing before the Lion. Weren't they more or less completely insignificant before his rise to power though? quote:I thought for the longest time Jonson, Luther, and the other together consisted of the leadership of the order. I thought the Lion was pretty genuine about that. Also the Lion is a primarch, who are supposed to more or less make anyone less than a primarch have a ton of issues being around them. quote:Zahael is the only other one aside from Jonson who killed the Calibanite Lion, which is something that everyone knows Luther desperately wanted to do. I didn't really think he was trashing luther more, just pointing out they now have a special bond that nobody else will ever be able to have. quote:He did bring peace and prosperity to the vast majority of the world, and the people know this. He was the figure head for leading his 10 year great crusade against the beasts, while Luther was probably doing a lot of the grunt work, everyone views him as the saviour of the world. The reality is he is still a primarch and even without Luthers scheming he would have still managed to clear the world of horrors. Also i thought the Lion was more or less responsible for summoning the imperium using the knowledge he found in the knights of lupus's library. quote:Yeah they really did drop the ball on editing it. The timeline for the dark angels makes very little sense in the Horus Heresy, especially since the Lion and the First Legion were second only to Horus and his Sons in terms of victories. Which basically relies on Luther and Co sitting on Caliban for a very very long period of time doing nothing. Also i really dislike how all the things like regular space marines basically having problems being in the same room as their primarch, etc. Apparently does not seem to really exist for the Lion. Like, you can see the outlines of some good ideas and interesting character arcs set up in it. They just get bungled.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:24
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Angry Lobster posted:Go and read Vengeful Spirit, it's far more clearly said than in The First Heretic. That the Emperor used the Warp and science to create the Primarchs is not a new idea and has appeared before, but that he had made a deal with the Chaos Gods and cheated them? New plot line and one I don't like a bit. Yes, but who tells them? Ingethel the Ascended (Who happens to be a Daemon Prince of Chaos). The only people who know the full truth behind the creation of the Primarchs are the Sigilite and the Emperor himself. I doubt any of the gene technicians working the labs are still alive after they served their purpose. The only information we as the reader have comes from a Deamon who was busy corrupting Lorgar.
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Jun 20, 2014 21:50
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iminay posted:Yes, but who tells them? Ingethel the Ascended (Who happens to be a Daemon Prince of Chaos). The only people who know the full truth behind the creation of the Primarchs are the Sigilite and the Emperor himself. I doubt any of the gene technicians working the labs are still alive after they served their purpose. The only information we as the reader have comes from a Deamon who was busy corrupting Lorgar. And pretty much confirmed by Horus in several moments in Vengeful Spirit, like the exposition he gives when he recovers his memories after defeating the guardian entity in the cave or his thoughts at the end of the book, although not as explicitly as Ingethiel in the First Heretic. Let's see how it is handled in Master of Mankind.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:44
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iminay posted:Yes, but who tells them? Ingethel the Ascended (Who happens to be a Daemon Prince of Chaos). The only people who know the full truth behind the creation of the Primarchs are the Sigilite and the Emperor himself. I doubt any of the gene technicians working the labs are still alive after they served their purpose. The only information we as the reader have comes from a Deamon who was busy corrupting Lorgar. Well, the lady the Emperor left behind to make sure the gate was destroyed if anyone ever tried what he did confirmed that he came out of the Warp half dead but victorious, so make of that what you will.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:07
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Angry Lobster posted:And pretty much confirmed by Horus in several moments in Vengeful Spirit, like the exposition he gives when he recovers his memories after defeating the guardian entity in the cave or his thoughts at the end of the book, although not as explicitly as Ingethiel in the First Heretic. Let's see how it is handled in Master of Mankind. The same Horus who, after acquiring power to rival the Emperor, can't come up with a better plan than "punch the Emperor until he dies". Horus really comes off as someone who doesn't make use of his supposedly ascended intellect. Disclaimer: who really knows when Chaos is involved? So far, the only explanations we've gotten have come from daemons and Chaos-corrupted individuals who have their own agenda.
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Jun 21, 2014 00:39
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Shroud posted:Disclaimer: who really knows when Chaos is involved? So far, the only explanations we've gotten have come from daemons and Chaos-corrupted individuals who have their own agenda. But Chaos is the Truth, Shroud.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:54
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VanSandman posted:Well, the lady the Emperor left behind to make sure the gate was destroyed if anyone ever tried what he did confirmed that he came out of the Warp half dead but victorious, so make of that what you will. So its not exactly known what happened when he went in? It could have gone either way then.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:38
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Shroud posted:The same Horus who, after acquiring power to rival the Emperor, can't come up with a better plan than "punch the Emperor until he dies". Horus really comes off as someone who doesn't make use of his supposedly ascended intellect. How the hell else are you going to kill a living god besides with another living god?
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Jun 21, 2014 02:48
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:So its not exactly known what happened when he went in? It could have gone either way then. Welp, the Big E comes to the planet, enters through a portal that leads to the heart of the Realms of Chaos and emerged half-dead but more powerful than before, left a perpetual and a psychic construct made of pure power to guard the entrance and proceeds to create the primarchs and the Great Crusade? What do you think happened there? Him and the chaos gods had a party and did a conga line? Seriously, why is so difficult to believe, even when strongly hinted in that direction, that the Emprah in the Horus Heresy series may have more dirty secrets than his previous incarnations?
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Jun 21, 2014 02:53
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Angry Lobster posted:Seriously, why is so difficult to believe, even when strongly hinted in that direction, that the Emprah in the Horus Heresy series may have more dirty secrets than his previous incarnations? An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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Jun 21, 2014 02:58
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VanSandman posted:An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:02
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Angry Lobster posted:Welp, the Big E comes to the planet, enters through a portal that leads to the heart of the Realms of Chaos and emerged half-dead but more powerful than before, left a perpetual and a psychic construct made of pure power to guard the entrance and proceeds to create the primarchs and the Great Crusade? What do you think happened there? Him and the chaos gods had a party and did a conga line? Alright alright, i guess i was to entrenched in the old idea of big E. Still I'll give that book a read anyways.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:33
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Shroud posted:The same Horus who, after acquiring power to rival the Emperor, can't come up with a better plan than "punch the Emperor until he dies". Horus really comes off as someone who doesn't make use of his supposedly ascended intellect. Why bother with a lie when the truth is just as effective? During Horus' recovery from being poisoned he was shown a future where entire worlds were dedicated to the worship of the Emperor, and there were statues honoring some of the primarchs but not him. Of course Chaos told him he could prevent this future but in reality his actions would lead to it. Angry Lobster posted:Welp, the Big E comes to the planet, enters through a portal that leads to the heart of the Realms of Chaos and emerged half-dead but more powerful than before, left a perpetual and a psychic construct made of pure power to guard the entrance and proceeds to create the primarchs and the Great Crusade? What do you think happened there? Him and the chaos gods had a party and did a conga line? Not even dirty secrets, just really, really dumb ideas. - He wanted Magnus to run the Golden Throne, but that would've consigned him to an eternity of torment (unless the throne was damaged and originally was painless to use) - Had some sort of weird secured complex with 18 luxury apartments set up for when the Primarchs were done with the Crusade, like he planned to cage them and hold onto them until he might need them again. - He brutally humiliates Lorgar in front of everyone expecting him to get over it. - He lets Angron brutalize his way across the galaxy for decades before suddenly deciding to impose some limits. - He makes Horus Warmaster then fucks off without an explanation after being side by side for decades. - He outright bans the use of Space Marine psykers, leaving them with no defense against Chaos and more susceptible to corruption. The biggest thing is that every time he hosed up with a Primach it's like he expected his logical declarations to be completely accepted and the Primach to act like a completely rational being.
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Jun 21, 2014 03:50
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Shroud posted:The same Horus who, after acquiring power to rival the Emperor, can't come up with a better plan than "punch the Emperor until he dies". Horus really comes off as someone who doesn't make use of his supposedly ascended intellect. See to my mind it's one of those things like the end of Sherlock Holmes: Game of Shadows where Holmes and Moriarity have this big fight that's "if I do this then he'll do that, then I'll do this other thing" in their heads and it leads Sherlock to realize that his only choice is to plunge them both over a waterfall. I picture Horus and Big E doing this mental strategy dance with Horus getting more and more frustrated until he finally just says "gently caress it, Now if only they'd actually write it that way, because the way they do it now makes Horus look like a moron. 
jng2058 fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 21, 2014 |
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Jun 21, 2014 04:08
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Fried Chicken posted:Apparently they were the biggest group of knights before Jonson was found, there is mention of a battle where they broke a siege that made them big long before he was found Your right. I completely forgot that they had fusion powered armour and yet rode horses. Can we please get a re-write of all the DA Fluff by someone other than Gav Thorpe? Abnett hinted at doing more DA HH stuff. However Gav Thorpe's new DA series is just pummeling any hope we had into the loving ground.  Why Thorpe
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Jun 21, 2014 06:12
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UberJumper posted:Your right. I completely forgot that they had fusion powered armour and yet rode horses. Can we please get a re-write of all the DA Fluff by someone other than Gav Thorpe? Abnett hinted at doing more DA HH stuff. In the interview ADB said he had some Dark Angels stuff he wanted to do but Thorpe has dibs and they put the DA on the wrong side of the galaxy for what he wants to do
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Jun 21, 2014 14:04
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jng2058 posted:See to my mind it's one of those things like the end of Sherlock Holmes: Game of Shadows where Holmes and Moriarity have this big fight that's "if I do this then he'll do that, then I'll do this other thing" in their heads and it leads Sherlock to realize that his only choice is to plunge them both over a waterfall. I picture Horus and Big E doing this mental strategy dance with Horus getting more and more frustrated until he finally just says "gently caress it, It drives me nuts, because we know the Emperor is simultaneously powering the Astronomicon and fighting off an army of daemons underneath the palace. If Horus has the same level of power, he should have a significant advantage since he doesn't have to divide his attention. He could start a warp storm in the Terran system, teleport a couple of legions there, or literally anything other than hand-to-hand combat.
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Jun 21, 2014 21:23
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Or he could just destroy Terra from orbit but you know, this is warhammer 40k, everything has to be solved with two manly dudes clobbering each other in epic single combat, even if it's the dumbest idea ever.
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Jun 22, 2014 02:09
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Angry Lobster posted:Or he could just destroy Terra from orbit but you know, this is warhammer 40k, everything has to be solved with two manly dudes clobbering each other in epic single combat, even if it's the dumbest idea ever. 'We should lower our shields so I can punch his face in orbit. It's the only way to be sure.'
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Jun 22, 2014 05:10
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pentyne posted:- Had some sort of weird secured complex with 18 luxury apartments set up for when the Primarchs were done with the Crusade, like he planned to cage them and hold onto them until he might need them again. Wasn't this just a guest house for the Primarchs for when they came to visit? Big E did a lot of mind-bendingly dumb things (to human perceptions), but this one didn't seem to be anything more than having an awesome pad for his sons to drop by and use where they can kick back and relax in comfortable surroundings. You know... when he's not sending them to the other side of the galaxy to fight in constant wars or having them 'sanctioned'... pentyne posted:- He wanted Magnus to run the Golden Throne, but that would've consigned him to an eternity of torment (unless the throne was damaged and originally was painless to use) The golden throne was to be a gateway for Magnus to sit and guide humanity through the webway. Magnus was always swanning off out of his body and would have probably welcomed the chance as he was pretty much already a being of warp energy squeezed into genetically engineered super flesh. Plus he could have got up, stretched his legs and taken a superhuman crap every now and again. Unfortunately he crashed through it like a drunk, retarded bull through a plate glass window so the Big E has been stuck on there holding it shut for 10,000 years while fighting off the chaos gods AND running his messed up empire leaving him a psychicly screaming, agonised, writhing corpse. Again, the genius of chaos is that it showed a true future, but it caused Magnus to misunderstand and make it happen. Which is not to say that if Magnus had been told this at Nikea he might not have hosed up so spectacularly, but that's the mysterious ways in which the Master of Mankind moves. Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 15:42
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Sandweed posted:The Emperor could have prevented the entire Heresy by telling some of his idiot sons about the webway project.
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Jun 22, 2014 17:34
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He was
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Jun 22, 2014 19:53
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I'm pretty sure that the whole "emperor made a deal with chaos" thing was said by a servant of chaos. So i wouldn't take that at face value. The ironic thing about Chaos is that half the time what you see/hear is probably true. When Ingethel showed the Primarch project in the Empy's labs, she was showing the truth. The sheer audacity of it is what makes it seem inconceivable.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:06
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I finished Prospero Burns last night. It was really good, it's probably displaced both The First Heretic and Betrayer as my top 40k novel. I'm kind of at a loss on what to read next, Horus Heresy wise. Maybe I'll try to finish the Eisenhorn omnibus that's been collecting dust for the last year or so.
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Jun 23, 2014 04:39
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I grabbed Master of Sanctity recently because I'm traveling and was bored. I got to say, I was a little surprised by it. I found Ravenwing to be pretty standard 40k garbage that didn't have much going for it beyond being about Dark Angels. The sequel was a lot better. If any of y'all are interested, you don't need to read Ravenwing to get into it. There's maybe five characters that carried over and they aren't important. The focus is put on Sapphon, the titular head chaplain of the Dark Angels, and a bunch of the other higher-ups. At times it felt like Thorpe was just kind of mashing established characters into the story, but it more-or-less works since most of them are small parts. Things like Azrael's in a couple of scenes because they're on The Rock or Ezekial's hanging out when there's interrogating to do. Asmodai's the big exception there. He's ridiculously one-note and constantly played up as Sapphon's counter-part. Beyond that, there's a pretty sweet Deathwing assault on a demon world in the middle of the book and a bunch of stuff about the Fallen. You know, the usual. The ending was pretty sudden, but that was so it could end on a  cliffhanger.
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Jun 26, 2014 13:08
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Finished Scars and actually found it to be one of the better HH books in the list. Certainly a relief after reading Vengeful Spirit. Whats the consensus on it and has Chris Wraight written any other good books?
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Jun 26, 2014 15:07
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Mikojan posted:Finished Scars and actually found it to be one of the better HH books in the list. Certainly a relief after reading Vengeful Spirit. It's pretty good, Wraight shows potential He did a really good iron hands book in space marines battles series the name if which escapes me
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Jun 26, 2014 15:15
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Mikojan posted:Finished Scars and actually found it to be one of the better HH books in the list. Certainly a relief after reading Vengeful Spirit. Battle of the Fang is pretty good and Wrath of Iron is one of the more grim dark  ones.
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Jun 26, 2014 15:17
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Mikojan posted:Finished Scars and actually found it to be one of the better HH books in the list. Certainly a relief after reading Vengeful Spirit. I found Blood of Asaheim to be pretty decent. Flat characterization, but neat concept.
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Jun 26, 2014 19:37
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After forcing myself through the first book of the Macharian crusade, i am extremely disappointed. I was expecting something from a much higher tactical perspective, that you know that starts detailing the crusade. Instead it just follows Macharius doing completely un-warmaster things. He is a god drat warmaster, yet seems to be fighting on the front lines. The book gives you a terrible high level overview of what is going on, and if you replaced his role as Warmaster with IG Regiment commander it would feel like the same drat thing. However some of the cover art for the series is just 
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Jun 26, 2014 21:45
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Yeah the covers of those books are fantastic.
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Jun 26, 2014 23:23
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Is that surprising? Almost every leader in WH40k is based around the fact their strategy seems to be 'I will kill dozens of enemies at this important spot!' They literally make it seem like Horus employing advanced understanding of troop deployments is magic
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Jun 27, 2014 16:33
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Is that surprising? Almost every leader in WH40k is based around the fact their strategy seems to be 'I will kill dozens of enemies at this important spot!' They literally make it seem like Horus employing advanced understanding of troop deployments is magic I guess not. Honestly i would love a book that views a crusade from a high level, maybe gives a few pov's of the battles. But mostly focuses on the grand strategy of the crusade and the intrigue that i would expect to occur at that type of high level. Like the warmaster has to juggle: The imperial Army, the navy, the Inquisition (who knows what they are doing), the Mechanicum, and the Astartes. They all have their own agendas, and i would love to see a face off between the inquisition and the adapteus mechanicum over a world. 
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Jun 27, 2014 17:12
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UberJumper posted:After forcing myself through the first book of the Macharian crusade, i am extremely disappointed. I was expecting something from a much higher tactical perspective, that you know that starts detailing the crusade. Why would a regular guy get personalized golden armor like that?
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Jun 27, 2014 19:27
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UberJumper posted:After forcing myself through the first book of the Macharian crusade, i am extremely disappointed. I was expecting something from a much higher tactical perspective, that you know that starts detailing the crusade. I actually thought about it myself and then the answer hit me. From a tabletop game sense it makes sense. Remember the books are about a game. You always have your commander on the table, in the thick of it. Ergo every commander will be on the front line in the book, or at least every sympathetic one (exceptions being Zyvan and Van Votz I guess).
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Jun 27, 2014 19:38
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