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CommissarMega posted:Can't find it, so have this one: That's pretty much Bioware in a nutshell.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:49
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:So were a lot of the status effects and the effects of stats, it's nice to mouse over things and get an explanation. Unless you were pretty familiar with D&D you had no reason to think constitution 20 would give your character regeneration. Captain Oblivious posted:Or that strength wouldn't do a loving thing for ya until 16, which is the arbitrary magical point at which it begins to benefit you I've played BG 1&2 (and NWN1, but I guess the rules are different for that one?) and still didn't know this. I played Morrowind before going through BG, MW is a bit more forgiving when it comes to character creation  . Was surprised when a friend explained I should have re-rolled my character until I got "good enough" stats. I just upped stats I thought sounded useful too and assumed I could raise them later on if needed. Partly true, I got through the game by getting a Dex belt and a bow.Still, gotta love all those numbers. Glad PoE will keep those.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:11
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In 3rd Edition, any attributes provides additional benefits for every 2 points invested. In other words, even numbers good, odd numbers dead weight. It's...a big improvement over the completely byzantine, arbitrary system in AD&D wherein literally every stat works off a completely different chart with no real rhyme or reason to it's rate of progression. Edit: Or the Druid experience chart 
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Jun 29, 2014 00:13
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By the way GOG is having a sale right now! D&D games are $5 or less.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:29
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Did you people not read your manuals? As I recall the BG1 manual was really good and had tables for all the stat bonuses and resistance poo poo. It's still AD&D and the game could've done a better job of explaining itself, but that was the style at the time and it was far and away more accessible than any other D&D game up to that point.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:40
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Hakkesshu posted:Did you people not read your manuals? As I recall the BG1 manual was really good and had tables for all the stat bonuses and resistance poo poo. It's still AD&D and the game could've done a better job of explaining itself, but that was the style at the time and it was far and away more accessible than any other D&D game. I did, but at the same time, anyone who felt that reading a thick rear end spiral ringed manual to have basic understandings of all the counterintuitive and arbitrary nonsense that awaited them was a sign of bad game design was completely justified in so doing. Cuz it kind of is exactly that, a lovely system, bad game design. People put up with it because they were teenagers with nothing better to do.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:42
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Hakkesshu posted:Did you people not read your manuals? As I recall the BG1 manual was really good and had tables for all the stat bonuses and resistance poo poo. Anyway, the sales not the best ever but good enough to grab one to see how it was, its not like theyre short games. 
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Jun 29, 2014 00:43
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Captain Oblivious posted:Or that strength wouldn't do a loving thing for ya until 16, which is the arbitrary magical point at which it begins to benefit you
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Jun 29, 2014 00:49
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Hakkesshu posted:Did you people not read your manuals? As I recall the BG1 manual was really good and had tables for all the stat bonuses and resistance poo poo. It's still AD&D and the game could've done a better job of explaining itself, but that was the style at the time and it was far and away more accessible than any other D&D game up to that point. Some of the information in the manual was inaccurate as it pertained to Baldur's Gate. For a couple of examples, wisdom doesn't affect magic defense, nor does intelligence cap the maximum spell level you can learn.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:59
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Captain Oblivious posted:In 3rd Edition, any attributes provides additional benefits for every 2 points invested. In other words, even numbers good, odd numbers dead weight. It's...a big improvement over the completely byzantine, arbitrary system in AD&D wherein literally every stat works off a completely different chart with no real rhyme or reason to it's rate of progression. 3E as a system is a vast improvement over 2E in every other way except in how fun and easy it is to play. The rules are very fun to look at, and very little fun to play. AD&D games had weird arbitrary rules but when you're playing the game it matters gently caress all that your wizard can't swing a sword (with a -6 to hit roll non-proficiency penalty, and an additional -4 from armor check penalty and 25% arcane spell failure) because the sword is red and that means you can't use it, end of story, and also who cares that you don't understand what THAC0 is when the computer rolls the dice and you can plainly see that Fighter McArcher over there gibs 5 bandits a round while Wizard Von Mage can't hit the broad side of a bard. Game systems should be judged based on how fun they are to play, not how fun the rulebooks are to read.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:17
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verybad posted:3E as a system is a vast improvement over 2E in every other way except in how fun and easy it is to play. The rules are very fun to look at, and very little fun to play. AD&D games had weird arbitrary rules but when you're playing the game it matters gently caress all that your wizard can't swing a sword (with a -6 to hit roll non-proficiency penalty, and an additional -4 from armor check penalty and 25% arcane spell failure) because the sword is red and that means you can't use it, end of story, and also who cares that you don't understand what THAC0 is when the computer rolls the dice and you can plainly see that Fighter McArcher over there gibs 5 bandits a round while Wizard Von Mage can't hit the broad side of a bard. Perhaps...these two things are related? Perhaps the fun value of the game is...greatly decreased by the likelihood of needing to regularly revisit a bigass book of rules that is sometimes even wrong! Great scott! We might have caught on to why some people decide they have better things to do with their time!
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Jun 29, 2014 01:21
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I've examined the facts, and have come to a conclusion: 2e and 3e are both bad.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:Perhaps...these two things are related? Perhaps the fun value of the game is...greatly decreased by the likelihood of needing to regularly revisit a bigass book of rules that is sometimes even wrong! Great scott! You only need to read the manuals for these games if you're an OCD nerd obsessed with min-maxing everything. If you're an OCD nerd obsessed with min-maxing everything, the Baldur's Gate games can be a bit disappointing because the manuals are mostly useless.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:34
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You know, there are probably some people reading this thread who don't know what THAC0 is, but it keeps coming up every so often. For their benefit, I will include this exhaustive guide to how it works: 1. When you attack something, subtract its armor class from your THAC0 (to hit armor class 0) score. So, if you have a THAC0 of 20 and your target has an armor class of 8, the number is 20 - 8 = 12. 2. Roll a 20-sided die; you hit if the number you roll is greater than or equal to that target number. You miss if it is lower than that number.* 3. There is no step 3. THAC0 and AC are counterintuitive only in that you usually want scores to be high, but you want those to be low. (A characteristic they share with 2E saving throws.) * Sometimes 20 is considered to always hit and 1 is considered to always miss. This is generally a good idea so you don't have situations where people literally can't miss or can't hit.
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Jun 29, 2014 03:49
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Clouds appear overhead and thunder rolls in the distance. Jastiger now owns Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, and Planescape: Torment. Muahahahahahaha. And soon Pillars of Eternity. Woo! Jastiger fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 04:13
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a slim pixie posted:Some of the information in the manual was inaccurate as it pertained to Baldur's Gate. For a couple of examples, wisdom doesn't affect magic defense, nor does intelligence cap the maximum spell level you can learn.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:11
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Replaying IWD2 (with an actual well-rounded party, no tieflings or sverfneblin in sight) with expanded feedback options indicated that at the very least the racial immunities in that game were actually implemented. Did speed factor ever matter in those games?
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Jun 29, 2014 07:17
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I made sure they were all implemented in IWD and IWD2. I don't think speed factor ever mattered, no.
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Jun 29, 2014 07:32
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You definitely seem slower to attack with a Two Handed Sword or a Halberd even given the same proficiency and number of attacks, but that may be placebo.
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Jun 29, 2014 08:37
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Speed factor definitely had an effect, but endgame weapons mostly had a low speed factor no matter the type, and combined with proficiency & dex bonuses most warrior types had near 0 speed factor no matter what weapon they chose. I think high APR/dual wielding might've also removed speed factor completely from the equation also. So no, speed factor wasn't that important overall, but it certainly has a noticeable effect in BG1 and early-mid BG2.
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Jun 29, 2014 12:22
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I don't think I missed it, but they didn't list the skills that barbarians get bonuses in, did they? Presumably they just forgot or something.
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Jun 29, 2014 13:32
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CottonWolf posted:I don't think I missed it, but they didn't list the skills that barbarians get bonuses in, did they? Presumably they just forgot or something. Bonus to Muscles (for crushing) Bonus to Whipping (for driving before you) Bonus to Listening (for hearing lamentations of women)
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Jun 29, 2014 14:03
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verybad posted:You only need to read the manuals for these games if you're an OCD nerd obsessed with min-maxing everything. If you're an OCD nerd obsessed with min-maxing everything, the Baldur's Gate games can be a bit disappointing because the manuals are mostly useless. Why wouldn't you want to make one of the best character builds possible? If you make a warrior-class character with high intelligence and/or wisdom, the benefits only exist in your head because the rules and content don't support that character concept.
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Jun 29, 2014 14:11
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CottonWolf posted:I don't think I missed it, but they didn't list the skills that barbarians get bonuses in, did they? Presumably they just forgot or something. You missed them, the skill bonus is listed above the barbarian picture: Update 81 posted:A QA (Quality Assurance) favorite at Obsidian, barbarians are the wild, unconventional counterparts to fighters. Barbarians need not be from the "hinterlands" of Eora, though the vast majority are. In the Eastern Reach, barbarians most often come from Eir Glanfath, though some can be found in rural Dyrwoodan communities or drifting in from abroad through port cities like Defiance Bay and New Heomar. Barbarians are often used as shock troops for dealing with mobs or simply to intimidate the easily-cowed with their ferocity. As the Dyrwood has settled down over time, the regular employment of foreign barbarians has slowed significantly, but they still make up the majority of Glanfathan front-line forces. Barbarians all have a strong skill focus in Athletics and lesser focus in Survival.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:32
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The "speed factor" that really mattered was the casting time of spells, because that was the difference between stunning that enemy wizard or having the enemy wizard stun/mind control/sleep your whole party.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:37
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prometheus12345 posted:You missed them, the skill bonus is listed above the barbarian picture: Cheers. Clearly I need my eyesight tested or something.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:40
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Sensuki posted:You definitely seem slower to attack with a Two Handed Sword or a Halberd even given the same proficiency and number of attacks, but that may be placebo.
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Jun 29, 2014 15:53
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pun pundit posted:The "speed factor" that really mattered was the casting time of spells, because that was the difference between stunning that enemy wizard or having the enemy wizard stun/mind control/sleep your whole party. Also improved alacrity >_>
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Jun 29, 2014 16:05
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rope kid posted:They played different attack animations and those animations may have had a different frame count, but I'm pretty sure the 2nd Ed. "speed factor" value for weapons was not used by the game. Hey in icewind dale 2 did the improved initiative feat actually do anything?
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Jun 29, 2014 16:15
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rope kid posted:They played different attack animations and those animations may have had a different frame count, but I'm pretty sure the 2nd Ed. "speed factor" value for weapons was not used by the game. I don't know about speed factor but when playing it seemed that any animation would simply get sped up if it was too slow to keep up with the attacks per round they were supposed to perform. It got really funny looking when it was trying to fit a Baal-form with improved haste on it into the 6 second round window.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:31
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I thought speed factor in the BG games was an abstraction for the number of attacks per round you'd get with a weapon? Slings and daggers had a very low speed factor, and so classes like the Mage got more attacks per round even at level 1 with a throwing dagger than a Fighter with a long sword or short sword?
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Jun 29, 2014 16:38
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:Hey in icewind dale 2 did the improved initiative feat actually do anything? Nah as per default it didn't work. Although I believe one of the fix packs fixed it.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:43
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I thought speed factor in the BG games was an abstraction for the number of attacks per round you'd get with a weapon? Slings and daggers had a very low speed factor, and so classes like the Mage got more attacks per round even at level 1 with a throwing dagger than a Fighter with a long sword or short sword? Second Edition AD&D initiative was roll 1d10 add the weapon initiative or spell initiative (each one has it's own stat on that) and the lowest goes first in that round. Also does it weird anyone else out that in Baldur's gate 1&2 monks can't use quarterstaves? Mr.Pibbleton fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 16:43
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I thought speed factor in the BG games was an abstraction for the number of attacks per round you'd get with a weapon? Slings and daggers had a very low speed factor, and so classes like the Mage got more attacks per round even at level 1 with a throwing dagger than a Fighter with a long sword or short sword? That's very definitely not true in the tabletop game; speed factor was basically a modifier on initiative to change when you'd go. Darts and shuriken and (maybe slings? I forget) had an explicit rate of fire stat that allowed you to throw them more often. Darts were 2 or 3 per round, I think! But speed factor was to make, say, a guy with a rapier go first before a guy with a claymore, assuming they rolled the same initiative. Of course I don't remember BG very well, but that was the original 2E implementation.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:45
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Prism posted:That's very definitely not true in the tabletop game; speed factor was basically a modifier on initiative to change when you'd go. Darts and shuriken and (maybe slings? I forget) had an explicit rate of fire stat that allowed you to throw them more often. Darts were 2 or 3 per round, I think! But speed factor was to make, say, a guy with a rapier go first before a guy with a claymore, assuming they rolled the same initiative. Yeah darts had a high number of attacks per round, thus a stone giant hurling one boulder per round was less dangerous than one hurling 3 darts per round.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:48
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I thought speed factor in the BG games was an abstraction for the number of attacks per round you'd get with a weapon? Slings and daggers had a very low speed factor, and so classes like the Mage got more attacks per round even at level 1 with a throwing dagger than a Fighter with a long sword or short sword? Speed factor iirc was an initiative thing in PnP. In BG I thought it was explained as being implemented as a priority thing as far as when in the course of the turn your attack would execute. Whether it was or not implemented, by the time you get multiple attacks and start casting haste or whatever, the combat threads have a stroke trying to cram everything in a turn anyways and nothing seems any better for interrupting than the next
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Jun 29, 2014 16:48
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rope kid posted:They played different attack animations and those animations may have had a different frame count, but I'm pretty sure the 2nd Ed. "speed factor" value for weapons was not used by the game. Nah it wasn't that. In Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, when your character walks up to attack, characters enter a "combat stance" or something where their model sort of pulses up and down in between attacks and fake attacks. For me, weapons with a higher speed factor definitely seem to take longer (more pulses) before the attack animations play. These were removed in IWD1, so maybe that's why it didn't matter in IWD1.
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Jun 29, 2014 16:51
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Okay, I don't know if anyone in this thread can help me with this, but I've been playing Icewind Dale and it has the same problem I had with Planescape: Torment. It doesn't happen every time I save, but every so often when I save (particularly quicksave) it will freeze. For Planescape: Torment, I used this mod guide: http://thunderpeel2001.blogspot.com/2009/01/planescape-torment-fully-modded.html It's workable for me, but god I really would like it to stop and I'd like to not be afraid every time I save.
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Jun 29, 2014 17:35
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:Hey in icewind dale 2 did the improved initiative feat actually do anything? It was required for the sick forester/toughness/improved initiative build.
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Jun 29, 2014 18:02
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a slim pixie posted:Why wouldn't you want to make one of the best character builds possible? If you make a warrior-class character with high intelligence and/or wisdom, the benefits only exist in your head because the rules and content don't support that character concept. My favourite error between book and game was the Shapeshifter kit. Per the manual, low-level Shapeshifters in werewolf form were supposed to get a base magic resistance of 20%, when instead it was locked at 20%; immunity to normal weapons, when instead they got nothing at all; and 1d12 slashing damage on their innate weapons when they got 1d6 piercing. Higher-level ones were even more hosed. They were supposed to get a base THAC0 of 6 (they got nothing); base saves of 1/1/1/2/1 (they got nothing); base elemental and magic resistance of 50 and 40% (they got them locked to those values instead); immunity to normal weapons (nothing!); +3 innate weapons (got +2); innate weapons do 2d8 slashing damage (they got 1d6 piercing again); and regen of 3 hp every round (they got, guess what, nothing). If they actually got what the manual said they were supposed to get without having to install a fix for it, I bet there'd be a lot fewer people who considered Cernd worthless.
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Jun 29, 2014 20:44
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