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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.


Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) was the first roleplaying game. Over the years, it has seen many editions, supplements, and owners. While not always on top, it is the most well-known tabletop roleplaying game and is often people's first game. After three years in development, D&D is releasing its latest edition: D&D NEXT.

The fifth edition of the game is like its predecessors. In the sense that the game focuses on players exploring dangerous and mysterious dungeons and fighting horrid monsters like dragons. Just like in its predecessors, each player controls a single character (Player Characters) while one individual sets up the adventure and plays the monsters and non-player characters (The Game Master). As one might assume by dragons being in the title, D&D is a fantasy game. The default rules tend to assume a more high fantasy, germanic setting though many alternate settings are likely to be released.

The first book of this new edition launches tomorrow -- as of this posting -- on July 3rd. Get the official, legal, free pdf here.

Gradenko gives a description of 5th edition and how it relates to 3.5 and 4th edition, mechanically.

gradenko_2000 posted:

quote:

It's a heavily modified version of 3.5e that gets rid of some of the jankiest aspects of that game like:

* tons and tons of CharOp/multiclassing/prestige-classing
* Touch Attacks and other BAB tomfoolery
* item wishlisting / Wealth-by-level
* buff stacking
* feat bloat (at least for now)
* small incremental bonus bloat (morale bonus vs reflex bonus vs untyped bonus, etc)
* Martials outside of Tome of Battle or multiclassing literally have nothing to do except full attack

You could almost call it Dungeons and Dragons: Mike Mearls' 3.5e Houserules Edition

1. Character building is easier - there's less stats to keep in mind, and more-or-less the only decisions characters need to make are their class progression tracks at level 3 and their spells.

2. Monster creation is theoretically easier since you have a chart of expected stats by CR (and goon Sanglorian has made it even easier), but how well this will translate into a fight against the players is up in the air because class design and math isn't as tight as it was in, say, 4E.

3. Combat is objectively quicker at low levels because of a sheer lack of options. As you progress past level 4 or so, everyone starts getting toys to play with. We don't really have a lot of in-depth insight to what happens - some people say combat remains quick, but only because rocket-tagging starts coming into play. Some people say combat starts getting slower as classes start getting more/as many powers as they would have in 4E, especially the casters having to pick through spells.

Basic concept - Attributes

You have 6 attributes, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma.

You have 6 attribute scores: 15/+2, 14/+2, 13/+1, 12/+1, 10/0 and 8/-1. The number to the right of the slash is the attribute modifier, and is the one thing you will have to remember 99% of the time.
Assign one score to each of the 6 attributes, keeping in mind the kind of character you want to be. A Fighter will have to be strong, a Rogue will have to be dexterous, a Wizard will have to be intelligent, and so on.

Basic concept - Proficiency


This is a bonus that starts out at +2 at level 1 and increases by 1 at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17. This is important because it will get added to just about everything you do

Non-combat task resolution


There are 18 different skills in the game, each of them tied to one of the six attributes. Selecting a Class will make you Proficient in 4 skills. Selecting a Background will make you Proficient in 2 more.
When you want to do a thing that is important and/or has a chance of failure and carries an element of risk, roll a d20, add the modifier for the most relevant attribute, and also add your Proficiency bonus if you are Proficient in the corresponding skill. Meet or beat a number set by the DM, known as the Difficulty Check or DC, to succeed.

For example, breaking down a door requires strength, so you would add your Strength attribute modifier. If you were a Fighter, you would be exceptionally skilled at breaking down doors, so you add your Proficiency bonus of +2 as well. If it's a weak door, maybe you only need to get a final result of 8 to break it down. If it's a steel door, maybe you'll need a 15.

Basic Combat Resolution

When you want to attack, roll a d20, add your STR or DEX modifier, and also your Proficiency bonus. Meet or beat the AC of the target to hit, then roll damage dice to deal damage.

Basic Spellcasting

If the spell description classifies it as a "spell attack", then it's actually like a physical/normal attack, except you add your spellcasting attribute (INT, WIS or CHA depending on class) instead of STR or DEX, but you're still aiming to beat the target's AC.

If the spell description refers to a saving throw, then you cast the spell with a DC of (8+Proficiency+Spellcasting Attribute Modifier). The target then has to make a saving throw of (d20+Attribute Modifier). If the target is Proficient in the saving throw for that attribute (every class is Proficient in two out of the six), then the target gets to add their Proficiency bonus to the saving throw as well. They need to meet or beat your DC.

That's basically it. The rest of the specifics are in the Basic Rules.

quote:

You get movement, a Normal Action, a Bonus Action, and a Reaction

A. x squares worth of movement, average is 6 squares (30 feet) - the big gimmick is that you don't have to take all your movement at once. It's like a meter you run down - you can move 2 squares, take a Normal Action, move another 2 squares, take a Bonus Action, and then move another 2 squares, as long your total movement for the turn doesn't exceed your Speed

B. Normal Action - things you can do with a Normal Action:

1. Attack - does what it says on the tin. If you're one of the classes that has Extra Attacks, this represents all of them. Note that some abilities either replace the whole Attack action, or just one of the attacks from it, or even are a rider on one of the attacks and doesn't replace any of them at all
2. Cast a Spell - self-explanatory
3. Dash - increases your movement by your Speed, effectively letting you move twice as far
4. Disengage - movement will not provoke Opportunity Attacks. Note that there is no "Shift" action in Next. In 4E, you could shift 1 square and then attack. In Next, you can move as far as your speed, but preventing OAs replaces being able to attack.
5. Dodge - Advantage on DEX saves. Attacks against you have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
6. Grapple - Make a STR(Athletics) check opposed by the target's STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) check. If you roll higher, you Grapple the target
7. Escape Grapple - Make a STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) check opposed by the target's STR(Athletics) check. If you roll higher, you are no longer Grappled
8.Help - Give Advantage to an ally's ability check or attack roll
9. Hide - Make a DEX(Stealth) check against a set DC. If you succeed, you become hidden
10. Shove - Make a STR(Athletics) check opposed by the target's STR(Athletics) or DEX(Acrobatics) check. If you roll higher, the target will either be knocked Prone or will have to move back 5 feet/1 square.
11. Ready Action - declare an action you want to take based on a trigger, and declare what the trigger will be. If the trigger happens on any other character's turn, you perform the action. This will consume your 1 Reaction per round
12. Most everything else as improvised by the player, such as searching an area, trying to heal an unconscious ally, using an object, etc.

C. Bonus Action - abilities specify if they are to be used as Bonus Actions. One example of a standard Bonus Action is attacking with your off-hand weapon if you are dual-wielding. Since you only have 1 Bonus Action, if you have multiple abilities that need to be used as Bonus Actions, you can only use one of them.

D. Reaction - abilities specify if they can be used as Reactions. One example of a standard Reaction is an Opportunity Attack, which is a basic melee attack roll whenever someone leaves your reach. The difference between this and a Normal Action to Ready an Action is that this can only be used with specific abilities that specify their usability as Reactions, whereas a Readied Action can be anything (at the expense of the player having to anticipate ahead of time what that action will be, and what will trigger it)

Relative to 4th Edition:

* Fast Monster creation and balanced encounter creation is pretty much objectively worse
* Some classes have significantly less options, others have significantly more. The entire AEDU model of 4E has been thrown out. It's like 3.5E with the martials classes getting crippled Tome of Battle handouts
* Skill checks are simpler
* Loot treadmill is pretty much completely gone, unless you choose to reimplement it
* Feat bloat is gone
* The movement and action mechanics of the game still heavily demands playing on a grid
* The math-tightness/balance of 4E's tactical combat is gone

On a budget? Use this handy guide by forum user by Gradenko

gradenko_2000 posted:

Guide to experiencing D&D Next on the cheap:

1. Get the player's basic rules: http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/PlayerDnDBasicRules_v0.2.pdf

2. Get the DM's basic rules: http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMBasicRulesv.0.3.pdf

3. Get Froggod Games' free adventure, The Wizard's Amulet: http://froggodgames.com/wizards-amulet
(no guarantee of quality as I've not run this myself, but it is free)

4.If you want to create your own monsters, use this guide by goon Sanglorian: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3647634&pagenumber=292&perpage=40#post439342954
I've also converted it to Google Docs form here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dK15yjLKN_8DakLsQeLxWAXrqKQjx5BaHsNJ4cUaRng/edit?usp=sharing
(this does not cover CR 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 monsters, but you should be able to wing the stats using the Kobolds and whatnot from the Basic Rules)

5. You can use this: http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/random/#encounter as a reference for creating properly budgeted encounters, and then just using the monster creation guide from step 4 for monsters whose stats you don't have the MM for - just create something with identical CR
(that site also has treasure generators for Next as well. If it ever throws you an item that's just a description because you don't have the DMG, wing it or look at the d20 or Pathfinder SRD's as reference. It's probably going to work out to be the same)

That gets you to about 90% of what you need to play the game - you could even run a homebrewed campaign with just steps 1, 2, 4 and 5.

I also wrote a guide on quickly making level 1 characters: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z3K_mfkfibJrCeClm2kczfOiA0sSuBIwf9ggBJ9b_Is/edit?usp=sharing , although I took some liberties with RAW for the sake of brevity

The Starter Set hopes to be an inexpensive gateaway into this new edition for players who prefer physical products. This set will only feature rules for PCs up to level 5. The Player's Handbook, which comes out in August, will give rules for players characters from first to max level. This will then be followed shortly by the Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide.

This is the thread for the fifth edition of the game, as previously stated. We have other threads for 4th Edition, 3rd Edition, and OD&D, 1st, 2nd, and BECMI.

As the edition hasn't officially launched yet, there isn't much support to link to as of yet, but this will be updated as such things become available.

()A cheat sheet for NEXT created by forum poster, Ritorix
()D&D Adventurer's League: Play Organizers
()Official site for the digital game aid for 5e: Project Morningstar
()Hoard of the Dragon Queen

Our own forum members -- Wolfshirt, Panzer Skank, Gharbad, Ikks, and Medibot -- have been doing a let's play of D&D 5th edition for quite some time now. These are some of the same people who brought you the very popular Let's Play of D&D 4th Edition -- Heroic Tier, Let's Play D&D 4th Edition -- Paragon Tier and Let's Play 13th Age. If you wonder how 5th edition works out in play, this let's play is a good option for finding out.

Now, I suppose it's time to refer to the elephant in the room. This is not the place to have edition wars about D&D. Seriously, stop it. I don't like the game either, but no need to beat a dead horse and bring down the people who do.

Amended on 9/19/2016: New Rule Added: "No talking about other editions, espeically their relative merits, from this point onward. None what so ever. Do not break this rule."

:siren: :siren: :siren: Important Disclaimer: Mike Mearls, Lead Dev, and Zak S, Consultant, Are Human Garbage :siren: :siren: :siren:

So, a lot of people here tend to have a largely negative view of 5e's writing staff and arguments have been starting up over it. Those arguments should stop and, in an effort to do so, let me just tell the entire story here so anyone can see and read it.

When 5e was coming out, they sought out the consultation of a man named Zak S. Zak S is a jerk who has managed to get banned from every RPG focused internet forum and has a major persecution complex because of it. He is known to love to argue and to attack people on social media. He is a giant pissbaby who can make Donald Trump seem well tempered, to put it mildly. But, for some reason, Mearls liked his blog so he asked him for playtesting advice.

Some forum members wanted to tell Mearls that pissbaby is bad and they didn't want pissbaby to be credited as a consultant alongside industry greats.

Pissbaby Whinypants response was to doxx a trans women who was a member of this forum and harass her until she went into hiding out of fear. Death threats, insults, etc., etc. The all too common routine uses by internet losers that has a very real effect on people but law enforcement does nothing to stop.

Naturally, a lot of forum users were pissed and tried to tell Mearls that this happened, it was a big controversy, and Mearls sided with Zak S. This made a lot of people think (rightfully so) that Mearls is a Pissbaby Neonazi Loser too.

So, basically, a lot of people hold a grudge against 5e's writing staff and, by extension, 5e and feel the need to tell people about Mike "Spineless Nazi Enabler" Mearls and Zak "Evil Baby" S and what they did and still do. Understandable, but it gets out of hand at times.

So, there, that's the story of how two assholes tormented a women over an internet disagreement and why the game's writing staff is hated here.

--

And I'm following this up with a new thread rule: No More Arguing Or Discussing These Events In This Thread. Take It To The Industry Thread Instead, Where Such Arguments Are Expected.

Covok fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Feb 13, 2017

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zachol
Feb 13, 2009

Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.
I really like the art they've been posting. The one with the fighter for the PHB, and also like the dragon on the starter set.
Is there a specific individual artist doing all this? I remember way long ago, something about some slightly... odd looking halflings (big heads), was there followup on that or what?

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Also, the "big" news, Basic D&D will be released to the general public, for free, via PDF, tomorrow or whenever WotC's servers stop choking from the added traffic.

It's going to be stripped-down, so while it will give us some idea about the game, it won't have everything and won't have much art.

It is going to have...
* The Big 4 classes, one "archetypal" build of each - Simple Fighter, Simple Rogue, Healer Cleric, and Blasty Wizard, going up to Level 20
* The Big 4 races, each with two subraces
* A selection of spells up to level 9
* Rules for the game

Eventually, it will also have
* Monsters up to Level 20
* Magic items
* Campaign advice

That's the theory anyway.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

dwarf74 posted:

Also, the "big" news, Basic D&D will be released to the general public, for free, via PDF, tomorrow or whenever WotC's servers stop choking from the added traffic.

It's going to be stripped-down, so while it will give us some idea about the game, it won't have everything and won't have much art.

It is going to have...
* The Big 4 classes, one "archetypal" build of each - Simple Fighter, Simple Rogue, Healer Cleric, and Blasty Wizard, going up to Level 20
* The Big 4 races, each with two subraces
* A selection of spells up to level 9
* Rules for the game

Eventually, it will also have
* Monsters up to Level 20
* Magic items
* Campaign advice

That's the theory anyway.

Added that in to the main post. I, for some reason, started talking about that then skipped it. Whoops. Thanks for pointing that out.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
It's all good!

It will be a good glimpse of the system, but we won't get the full picture until probably November, when the DMG comes out.

I have grave doubts about the saving throw system, btw. My prediction is that it will need to be pretty heavily houseruled.

It goes something like this...

Wizard Spell Save DC = 8 + Proficiency Bonus + Int Modifier. At 1st level, this is 13. At 20th, this is 19.

"Good" Save Bonus (normally on a bumped stat) = Proficiency Bonus + Stat Modifier. At 1st, this is +5. At 20th, this is +11.
"Bad" Save Bonus (normally not bumped) = Stat modifier. At 1st, this is +0. At 20th, this is... +0. :crossarms:

There might be (hopefully!) some mitigating factors, but there's a good chance the game will go totally off the rails once a Wizard has access to Save-or-Suck spells against all 6 stats.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.
If you don't have an FLGS, the Amazon preorder discounts for all this year's releases look nice and deep.

zachol
Feb 13, 2009

Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.

dwarf74 posted:

There might be (hopefully!) some mitigating factors, but there's a good chance the game will go totally off the rails once a Wizard has access to Save-or-Suck spells against all 6 stats.

Well, hopefully monster and NPC design will have fairly balanced stat progression, regardless of how saves will generally go for PCs.
Regarding PCs, if Str, Int, and Cha are all "rare" saves, and this is actually acknowledged by the system, it might be an interesting way to have a particularly dangerous sort of enemy, as an effect with a much higher chance of going off than saves in general.

LFK
Jan 5, 2013

dwarf74 posted:

I have grave doubts about the saving throw system, btw. My prediction is that it will need to be pretty heavily houseruled.
This is one of the squidgier parts for me, too.

Ideally it works on the same principle as AC attacks: base accuracy is quite high creating diminishing returns on stacking additional accuracy. The problem is that the effects of spells are often much, much more severe than straight damage. Some of the key offenders have been constrained with HP requirements or Concentration (Creeping Doom, Confusion) preventing them doubling up with buffs, but there's a good chance that those constraints don't matter because the powers are just that powerful.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Someone posted some higher level monster statblocks and it looks like solo enemies can just flat out NOPE and automatically pass a save X number of times.

So in a fight, a dracolich or whatever is going to get hit with the Fighter's maneuver that sends it sprawling because that's minor enough that it doesn't want to burn the resource, but when the cleric tosses a Hold Person at it, even if it targets the weakest save, the dracolich is still going to stay in the fight.

I actually like this a lot more than 4e's design where solos were pretty much immune to debuffs of any kind, with a "save at the start and end of your turn, get a +5 bonus to all saves, and immune to half a dozen of the most common effects" Take the dragons in 4e's Monster Vault. All of them have a 80% chance of passing every saving throw, and they automatically clear any stunning, dazing, or dominating effects at the end of their turn. Later, they get the ability to clear stunning and dominating off turn.

So, 5e's SoDs are about at the level of 4e's stuff, with everything either Save Ends or based on a damage threshold, and against solos, instead of saying "your (save ends) are pointless unless you're an optimized controller throwing down massive penalties", it becomes a resource management thing like hp. Simpler and more tactical. Win win.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Quadratic_Wizard posted:

the Fighter's maneuver that sends it sprawling

Ok you had me up until here.

Father Wendigo
Sep 28, 2005
This is, sadly, more important to me than bettering myself.

dwarf74 posted:

* The Big 4 classes, one "archetypal" build of each - Simple Fighter, Simple Rogue, Healer Cleric, and Blasty Wizard, going up to Level 20

I'm not really sure how you would consider it the 'Blasty Wizard,' as they're getting a pretty big selection of spells to choose from.

I'm really hoping they've done something... anything to make the Rogue more effective than it is right now. Right now it's a markedly less effective Fighter whose biggest positive is their high DEX save.

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

Someone posted some higher level monster statblocks and it looks like solo enemies can just flat out NOPE and automatically pass a save X number of times.

It's worse than that. They have the option to retcon a failed save X times per day.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
Just to tell you. D&D next is not the name of the game. It's officially just Dungeons and Dragons and is referred by the people making the game as D&D 5th Edition. This stated in twitter Next was the name of the playtest. This is not a big deal just somthing to point out.

Also I like the art as well the new Ogre looks quite smashing.

MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jul 3, 2014

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
I just meant that the build/subclass was the Evoker. There's a decent variety of spells, in general.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Father Wendigo posted:

I'm really hoping they've done something... anything to make the Rogue more effective than it is right now. Right now it's a markedly less effective Fighter whose biggest positive is their high DEX save.

Apparently rogues now have a faster sneak attack progression, with 2d6 at level 3 and 3d6 at level 5. With Cunning Action letting them hide constantly, it's not unreasonable to assume that they're not only sneak attacking each turn, but getting Advantage on most of those, and with how much of a godstat Dex is in 5e, they're pretty effective.

...except, they nerfed its out of combat abilities with fewer skills, smaller bonuses, and their ability to jump 10 feet longer and 5 feet higher is now "jump dex mod futher IF you get a running jump" while at the same time making a common magic item that triples the distance you can jump. Legendary thief with near superhuman agility? +4 feet. Put on some magic boots in the bargain bin? +20-40 feet. Oh, and rogues can't use medium armor anymore because reasons.

quote:

It's worse than that. They have the option to retcon a failed save X times per day.
Right. That's what I meant.

LFK
Jan 5, 2013

MonsterEnvy posted:

Just to tell you. D&D next is not the name of the game. It's officially just Dungeons and Dragons and is referred by the people making the game as D&D 5th Edition. This stated in twitter Next was the name of the playtest. This is not a big deal just somthing to point out.
I consider it a big deal, but only because I get to be a grouchy old man and say it reminds me too much of Pepsi and Spice Girls

quote:

Also here is the stats for a Young Green Dragon.


Wait, why is a green dragon amphibious?

moths posted:

Ok you had me up until here.
I'm fine with it. Beowulf ripped Grendel's arm off. Samson killed hundreds with the jawbone of a mule. Why can't a fighter deke out, or even push back, a dragon?

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

I actually like this a lot more than 4e's design where solos were pretty much immune to debuffs of any kind, with a "save at the start and end of your turn, get a +5 bonus to all saves, and immune to half a dozen of the most common effects" Take the dragons in 4e's Monster Vault. All of them have a 80% chance of passing every saving throw, and they automatically clear any stunning, dazing, or dominating effects at the end of their turn. Later, they get the ability to clear stunning and dominating off turn.
Eeeeeh, it's functional, but it's also bad. Or, rather, it's "low interaction" and quite unsatisfying in play. It creates a cold war where you either suck it up and bleed the insta-saves out of it or sit on your big spells waiting for the DM to slip up. At least 4e's system provided 1) tangible reduced results (stuns earn you a small action advantage) and 2) the chance of a lucky break. Because even if the odds are really crap, and the results are typically the same, a 20% chance that my bleed (or whatever) will stay up is far more fun than the DM being able to "nope" right out.

At the end of the day dealing with this crap is the hardest question any modern game needs to answer. Frankly they should have just stripped all the stuns and petrifies and "lol, gently caress you"s out of the game entirely.

Father Wendigo
Sep 28, 2005
This is, sadly, more important to me than bettering myself.

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

Apparently rogues now have a faster sneak attack progression, with 2d6 at level 3 and 3d6 at level 5. With Cunning Action letting them hide constantly, it's not unreasonable to assume that they're not only sneak attacking each turn, but getting Advantage on most of those, and with how much of a godstat Dex is in 5e, they're pretty effective.

...except, they nerfed its out of combat abilities with fewer skills, smaller bonuses, and their ability to jump 10 feet longer and 5 feet higher is now "jump dex mod futher IF you get a running jump" while at the same time making a common magic item that triples the distance you can jump. Legendary thief with near superhuman agility? +4 feet. Put on some magic boots in the bargain bin? +20-40 feet. Oh, and rogues can't use medium armor anymore because reasons.
Hell, they actually made it worse! The problem with Rogues wasn't damage, it's that the only major bullet point of the class was 'DAMAGE.' It's also hampered that it HAS to be ranged damage, since the Rogue's HP progression is the same as the Wizard and the class lacks ways to get proper distance from anyone due to Breakaway requiring a full move that gets you one square away. edit: They actually fixed that, it now halves your move. Still, a Crossbow or Longbow (Elf) is better and safer than your pointy-stick options.

On top of all of that, Sneak Damage quickly necessitates Magic Weapons or just Magic to avoid the 'Resists Mundane Damage' modifier that becomes common past level 6.

If somebody wants to be a Thief, they take the Thieves Guild Initiate. If they want to be masochistic, they play the Rogue.

Father Wendigo fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jul 3, 2014

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



LFK posted:

I'm fine with it. Beowulf ripped Grendel's arm off. Samson killed hundreds with the jawbone of a mule. Why can't a fighter deke out, or even push back, a dragon?

I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out!

I've been following the development process rather closely, and nothing I've seen has given me confidence that we'll see non-casters doing anything remarkable. Even Quadratic_Wizard's hypothetical example of what a Fighter could do is hinged on the DM's evaluation that it's minor enough to ignore.

If Next isn't going to be dominated at every level by skinny dudes in robes, they haven't done much to indicate so.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012

Can't see image. Don't leech from enworld.

LFK
Jan 5, 2013

moths posted:

I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out!

I've been following the development process rather closely, and nothing I've seen has given me confidence that we'll see non-casters doing anything remarkable. Even Quadratic_Wizard's hypothetical example of what a Fighter could do is hinged on the DM's evaluation that it's minor enough to ignore.
Nah, we won't find out tomorrow. We already know the Basic fighter is "super duper improved crit" Path of the Warrior, so we need to wait until August to see the finished Weaponmaster.

Also Quadratic_Wizard's example was somewhat amiss, since Superiority maneuvers don't have a saving throw. The maneuver in question is Drive Back: if your superiority die is equal to or greater than the target's strength mod you push the target 15 feet away from you in a straight line, no save.

Still, yes, it did require the fighter's impact to be worth ignoring. Oh, man, could you imagine if fighters had, I dunno, crippling blows, or bleeds, or 100-damage Save-or-die execute abilities that were actually worth burning an insta-save on? Wild and radical thoughts!

quote:

If Next isn't going to be dominated at every level by skinny dudes in robes, they haven't done much to indicate so.
I think levels 1-4 are gonna belong to the archers. Then the skinny dudes take over.

Lothire
Jan 27, 2007

Rx Suicide emailed me and all I got was this amazingly awesome forum account.

Tortured By Flan
Been having a good time with one of the PbP games on here using the playtest. It's low level involving a lot of "I swing at it" action, but I'm interested in seeing how things play out as we go. They've announced a digital toolset in the works (Morningstar by Trapdoor Technologies) some time ago. There was also a lot of talk about how they want to listen to community feedback before they start making changes/erratas, while also giving those changes out to the public as test phases before deciding to commit to them.

It's a lot of nice talk but we'll see if they hold up on that end. I'm expecting some changes from the playtest packet at least. My concern right now is kind of superficial, in that I really hope to see two weapon fighting with longswords, currently impossible by playtest rules. It's been a staple of one of my favorite characters for a long time, hate to be unable to recreate it.

LFK
Jan 5, 2013

Lothire posted:

Been having a good time with one of the PbP games on here using the playtest. It's low level involving a lot of "I swing at it" action, but I'm interested in seeing how things play out as we go. They've announced a digital toolset in the works (Morningstar by Trapdoor Technologies) some time ago. There was also a lot of talk about how they want to listen to community feedback before they start making changes/erratas, while also giving those changes out to the public as test phases before deciding to commit to them.

It's a lot of nice talk but we'll see if they hold up on that end. I'm expecting some changes from the playtest packet at least. My concern right now is kind of superficial, in that I really hope to see two weapon fighting with longswords, currently impossible by playtest rules. It's been a staple of one of my favorite characters for a long time, hate to be unable to recreate it.
Within the microcosm of martial characters 2WF with longswords is "OP" in the sense that it becomes the best option by a healthy margin. Design wise you have to think about it backwards: 2WF is more meant to boost the value and use of smaller, lighter weapons, and not the other way around. If you can 2WF with any 1-hander then the only real question is "what's the biggest stick I can swing?" and the reasons to use a shortsword are as follows:



Something that D&D has long struggled with is inserting specificity where it really ought to stick with generalities. For example you want to use longwords, probably because of the mental image you have of your character, the mental image you have of a longsword, and (we can be honest) the d8 damage dice. But a longsword isn't strictly a longsword: it's any and every 1d8 (1d10 Versatile) slashing weapon. In the same measure a scimitar is any and every slashing weapon that you use with 2WF." So why call it a longsword or scimitar and not "versatile 1d8 slashing weapon"? Because "longsword" is more evocative and less clinical and dispassionate than an uncut stat block.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

LFK posted:

the reasons to use a shortsword are as follows:


The reintroduction of Speed Factor or something similar could help that.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai
Speed factor rules are cumbersome and boring

LFK
Jan 5, 2013

FRINGE posted:

The reintroduction of Speed Factor or something similar could help that.
Eeeeeeehhhhhhhhhh, for my money I'd rather have the dissonance of "longsword actually means all these different swords" than bringing back unwieldy timing mechanics just so that longsword=longsword (especially since that specificity creates its own problems since, you know, what should a khopesh and a nimcha and a kukri and a talwar and a szabala be?! and as much fun as I had reading the old arms and equipment splat books, they were kinda a waste of space.)

Lothire
Jan 27, 2007

Rx Suicide emailed me and all I got was this amazingly awesome forum account.

Tortured By Flan
Also worth mentioning that they changed the weight of Scimitars to be "light" weapons in order to conform to this two weapon fighting system, where they've been medium weapons in prior editions. So while we may have distinction between Longswords and Shortsword with this system, we no longer do between Scimitar and Shortsword (both light, finesse weapons).

I understand the reasons behind the system, but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow. More than just the damage die (although that's just as much a point as any other), but now a plate wearing fighter can't dual wield longswords, or a barbarian dwarf his battleaxes. Such builds are almost iconic to D&D in recent years, yet we will be lacking them here.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

LFK posted:

especially since that specificity creates its own problems since, you know, what should a khopesh and a nimcha and a kukri and a talwar and a szabala be?!
Sure, but having something more streamlined (as a MODULE lol) would be alright. Even if it was just 4 basic layers. (Equivalent to dagger, short sword, long sword, 2h sword.)

Then there is a specific advantage to short swords, and a reason that people might specialize with them etc.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

Lothire posted:

Also worth mentioning that they changed the weight of Scimitars to be "light" weapons in order to conform to this two weapon fighting system, where they've been medium weapons in prior editions. So while we may have distinction between Longswords and Shortsword with this system, we no longer do between Scimitar and Shortsword (both light, finesse weapons).

The weapon nerd in me hates this.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...
D&D weapons are too granular, I prefer abstracting that out.
If the damage die of two weapons is the same, and the only differences are weight and cost (which only really matter at low level) or damage type (because gently caress mundanes) than I think that's pretty bad design.

Woden
May 6, 2006

Father Wendigo posted:

Hell, they actually made it worse! The problem with Rogues wasn't damage, it's that the only major bullet point of the class was 'DAMAGE.' It's also hampered that it HAS to be ranged damage, since the Rogue's HP progression is the same as the Wizard and the class lacks ways to get proper distance from anyone due to Breakaway requiring a full move that gets you one square away. edit: They actually fixed that, it now halves your move. Still, a Crossbow or Longbow (Elf) is better and safer than your pointy-stick options.

On top of all of that, Sneak Damage quickly necessitates Magic Weapons or just Magic to avoid the 'Resists Mundane Damage' modifier that becomes common past level 6.

If somebody wants to be a Thief, they take the Thieves Guild Initiate. If they want to be masochistic, they play the Rogue.

Doesn't rogue evasion halve damage from everything now? Maybe it was defensive roll or something, but I'm sure I read they had an ability like that at level 6 or so in the Dead in Thay play test.

Woden fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Jul 3, 2014

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Starter pregen for the rogue leaked, and they get Uncanny Dodge at level 5, which lets them halve the damage of any attack that hits them, once per round. They also have a d8 hitdie now.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



So Rogues get to Roll With It? I wonder just how much of the starter will have (*as seen in 13th Age) citations.

e:
Power: Roll With It. Spend momentum when an enemy hits your AC to take half damage.

moths fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Jul 3, 2014

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

So, 5e's SoDs are about at the level of 4e's stuff, with everything either Save Ends or based on a damage threshold
Nope, there are a bunch of straight up Save or Dies: Beholder petrification, Death Knight soul steal etc.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jul 3, 2014

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

moths posted:

So Rogues get to Roll With It? I wonder just how much of the starter will have (*as seen in 13th Age) citations.

e:
Power: Roll With It. Spend momentum when an enemy hits your AC to take half damage.

Yep, only, you know, they can do it without momentum. And against any kind of attack, AC targeting or not.

Really, the rogue is one of the messiest classes in 13a. The momentum mechanic is nice in theory, but since you're capped at holding only 1 point of it from level 1 till the end, it means the rogue scales in power really poorly. New powers just give new, mostly equivalent options, while the other classes get new options they can actually reliably use.

Jack the Lad posted:

Nope, there are a bunch of straight up Save or Dies: Beholder petrification, Death Knight soul steal etc.

Ah, yeah, I was just talking about the PC spells.

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs

LFK posted:

I'm fine with it. Beowulf ripped Grendel's arm off. Samson killed hundreds with the jawbone of a mule. Why can't a fighter deke out, or even push back, a dragon?

Interestingly, Beowulf was cited in the Fighter Design Goals article back in 2012:

quote:

3. The Fighter Exists in a World of Myth, Fantasy, and Legend

Keeping in mind the point above, we also have to remember that while the fighter draws on mundane talent, we’re talking about mundane within the context of a mythical, fantasy setting. Beowulf slew Grendel by tearing his arm off. He later killed a dragon almost singlehandedly. Roland slew or gravely injured four hundred Saracens in a single battle. In the world of D&D, a skilled fighter is a one-person army. You can expect fighters to do fairly mundane things with weapons, but with such overwhelming skill that none can hope to stand against them.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



It's not really a "point," it's a binary condition that you either have or don't. The rogue is either killing or being killed, and it's a mechanic that encourages killing. But while I don't think it was a good idea to dumb it down for a D&D martial class, it was entirely consistent with the design philosophy.

Any word on when it's coming out? Mearls tweeted yesterday that the file was finished sometime in the afternoon.

Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs

moths posted:

out? Mearls tweeted yesterday that the file was finished sometime in the afternoon.

I think he later said 'working hours, can't be more precise than that'

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
Translation: 4:59 PM PST.

treeboy
Nov 13, 2004

James T. Kirk was a great man, but that was another life.

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

Starter pregen for the rogue leaked, and they get Uncanny Dodge at level 5, which lets them halve the damage of any attack that hits them, once per round. They also have a d8 hitdie now.

this gives me some hope they're actually paying attention to things. Perhaps not limiting the Wizard and giving him actual boundaries, but perhaps recognizing the worth of a generally functional party as more than support.

Also regarding monster saves vs. effects. It'd be hilarious if, in effect, the wizard becomes far less useful (though still important as a save "soak") since the DM blows all his auto saves vs. wizard effects, thus allowing the martial characters to shine do things.

"Here, have the power of the cosmos"
"BUT HE JUST SAVES OUT OF IT!"
"Heh"

treeboy fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Jul 3, 2014

ritorix
Jul 22, 2007

Vancian Roulette
Noon EST is when they are releasing it, servers willing.

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Jack the Lad
Jan 20, 2009

Feed the Pubs

ritorix posted:

Noon EST is when they are releasing it, servers willing.

Where's that from?

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