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ImpAtom posted:The problem is that the R Original plot is honestly pretty barebones, even in its original game. The big gimmick it has is time travel and how that time travel impacts things which loses a lot of its luster in the Original setting where they can't fool around with it in the same way. Heck, there is even only one of the originals in the original game, it's more of a gender pick than anything. The A Original plot basically boils down to "Evil Goatee Twins From A Parallel Dimension Invade Ours" and they built an entire universe out of that. The D Original plot is "Spooky Evil Ghosts From Underground Invade The Surface World" and they hung an entire game on it. The Alpha originals didn't even have personalities of their own before OG1 made them up. You're telling me that you can't do anything with literal time travel? Traveling from a dystopian future where Kyosuke has an eyepatch and some rad scars and they're fighting a desperate war against the victorious invading Balmar army or something and they got sent back to make sure that never happens DBZ/Terminator style? It's all down to how much effort you're willing to put into the characters, which in the case of R's originals boils down to "not much". e: Kusuha has been poo poo on massively compared to her Alpha appearances and is a pathetic shadow of the character she once was, but she's still a major participant in main plotlines and a fixed pilot in an S-tier protagonist-level super robot. That doesn't even remotely compare to getting four stages of plot and then almost being dropped from the roster before next game like they're Giada and Garnet. Kanos fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 04:26
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Ethiser posted:OG really needs a music character in the vain of Basara or Mic Sounders. If we're getting a music character, it's going to be an idol.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:26
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Kanos posted:The A Original plot basically boils down to "Evil Goatee Twins From A Parallel Dimension Invade Ours" and they built an entire universe out of that. The D Original plot is "Spooky Evil Ghosts From Underground Invade The Surface World" and they hung an entire game on it. The Alpha originals didn't even have personalities of their own before OG1 made them up. The "Evil twins from a Parallel Universe" thing has a lot more to work with because they have a firm concrete grounding for it. They either referenced things from the original game or Einst bullshit. Most of the characters were just 'you died in our universe.' With Time Travel they run smack-dab into the problem of not actually having this stuff lined up yet. With R classic they were able to work with the "you know this stuff is happening from the anime" kind of stuff, but all the OG games except Alpha (and Z) are one-and-dones. There's not really much equivalent to Char's Counterattack in that regards aside from maybe the A3 plot which they're holding back on. It's why they went for alternate universe for it because it allowed them to do some of the same beats without having to establish a future or potential future. Hellioning posted:If we're getting a music character, it's going to be an idol. We already have a pair of idol singer robots. Kanos posted:e: Kusuha has been poo poo on massively compared to her Alpha appearances and is a pathetic shadow of the character she once was, but she's still a major participant in main plotlines and a fixed pilot in an S-tier protagonist-level super robot. That doesn't even remotely compare to getting four stages of plot and then almost being dropped from the roster before next game like they're Giada and Garnet. She isn't a major participant in plotlines except for being endagered or kidnapped. The plotlines she's supposed to have mostly went to Bullet. Hell, they weren't even willing to have Bullet kidnapped so she could do her Alpha 2 plotline. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 04:32
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ImpAtom posted:We already have a pair of idol singer robots. Yes, but neither pilot is an actual idol, and they don't use music to inspire others/somehow make robots punch harder/make aliens LISTEN TO THEIR SONG/etc. I'd prefer a Basara-like character (honestly, I kinda just want Basara) but if they're making a music character it's almost guaranteed to be an idol nowadays.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:34
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^^ Latooni and Shine are literally training to become idol singers, so... ^^ImpAtom posted:The "Evil twins from a Parallel Universe" thing has a lot more to work with because they have a firm concrete grounding for it. They either referenced things from the original game or Einst bullshit. Most of the characters were just 'you died in our universe.' R's original plotline was hung very hard on its accompanying anime series and Dyuminas was pretty much an afterthought so it would be really really easy to just repeat that. It would be trivially easy to tie R in with another incoming game's plotline and achieve literally the exact same "You know what's happening from the anime plot" effect while actually giving them something to do. Since the entire point was fixing poo poo in the past so the future wasn't a loving mess, it doesn't matter what happens in the fake R future for purposes of canon because the point is preventing it from occurring in the first place. Let's assume R was never included and they were going to put it in for the first time with the likely introduction of J in the next game. Prologue stages consist of a hosed up future scenario where the Fury have basically rocked the Earth's poo poo into the ground and everything sucks. Big last battle, time engine shenanigans, R people go back in time to warn everyone about the Moon Knights right as they appear and prevent catastrophe, maybe bring big revelations re: Touya and Calvina and help spur their growth as characters. That took me five minutes. Instead we got "Ehhh, just make them Shadow Mirrors. Wait, their entire gimmick was time travel? Too much effort." e: poo poo, now I'm even madder we didn't get this scenario. You could have had golden lines like "Wait, you're Sanger Somvoldt? The legendary hero who died dueling Al Vaan?!" Kanos fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 04:39
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Kanos posted:^^ Latooni and Shine are literally training to become idol singers, so... ^^ Well, the problem there is you basically have them derailing the J plot in service of their own plot then, which isn't very fun for people who liked J's originals. It worked with the anime plots because... well, they're the anime plots. J's plot does exist in the original game but the OG version of it would be running through for the first time and having Raul show up and derail their plot wouldn't be very fun in the way that CCA's plot being derailed is. I think that is a problem a lot of OG stuff runs into, honestly. They can't subvert it very much because they're effectively treating it as the first real time the plot has been done, and the few attempts they make to subvert it usually end up for the worst. (Kusuha, Ibis' long meandering plot that takes forever to go anywhere, ect.)
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Jul 6, 2014 04:51
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ImpAtom posted:Well, the problem there is you basically have them derailing the J plot in service of their own plot then, which isn't very fun for people who liked J's originals. It worked with the anime plots because... well, they're the anime plots. J's plot does exist in the original game but the OG version of it would be running through for the first time and having Raul show up and derail their plot wouldn't be very fun in the way that CCA's plot being derailed is. You mean like the Einst storyline derailed the A storyline and everyone absolutely hated it and couldn't stand it and it destroyed the integrity of the plotline? Or how the A storyline derailed and ruined the Divine Crusaders plotline? They already do fusions and subversions of existing OG plotlines by melding them together even if it's technically the "first time" the game is being featured in OG.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:53
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Kanos posted:You mean like the Einst storyline derailed the A storyline and everyone absolutely hated it and couldn't stand it and it destroyed the integrity of the plotline? Or how the A storyline derailed and ruined the Divine Crusaders plotline? Huh? The A storyline went through pretty much as expected. The thing everyone hated about it was that they used Lamia-protagonist/Axel-villain which nobody liked at all. (And they've been steadily walking back villain-Axel every time, including doing goofy Axel in one the side games.) Otherwise the A storyline went through almost unchanged aside from using Echidna to replace Evil Lamia. The Einst storyline didn't derail anything except for getting a lot more screentime than everything else. There's no problem with fusing plotlines. The bigger problem is having someone come back and go "here is how your plotline is going to end" because that inherently kind of alters the story. That's kind of the core concept of R's plotline. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 04:58
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ImpAtom posted:Huh? I was being sarcastic because I couldn't understand your assertion that they tend to play new entries in OG straight, because they most certainly do not. Axel's entire motivation and rival fixation was on a character not even from his own game, for god's sake. Tying the Einst storyline into the A storyline and the A storyline into the Divine Crusaders storyline are both things that happened, they worked great, and are roughly equivalent to what I suggested with R and J. They really don't play new entries in OG straight like you suggested they do, they fuse them with existing poo poo and tweak stuff around constantly. There's absolutely no issue with "Here is how your own plotline is going to end" because the entire point of R was that they went back in time and changed everything. CCA happened at the beginning of R, but due to the events of R Quattro never says gently caress it. You can have the R people say "This is how your plotline ends" and make something completely bullshit up out of the blue and it won't matter or gently caress with the series's final plot in any way because that's the entire point of time travel. Kanos fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 05:07
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Kanos posted:I was being sarcastic because I couldn't understand your assertion that they tend to play new entries in OG straight, because they most certainly do not. Axel's entire motivation and rival fixation was on a character not even from his own game, for god's sake. Except they do. They play those stories straight. They fused them together but the actual outcomes are pretty much the same, almost to an excessive degree. (And sometimes they end up retconning them later, see: Alfemi and Axel.) The details changed and there are some new additions (Lemon Browning being the clone-zombie Excellen) but the core events happen as intended. The cool idea about SRWR's plot is that they change the plots. They go and rescue the Zambot-3 pilots before they die or they convince Quattro that he doesn't want to become the guy who drops Axis on Earth. They specifically change things so the events can't happen. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 05:09
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ImpAtom posted:Except they do. They play those stories straight. They fused them together but the actual outcomes are pretty much the same, almost to an excessive degree. (And sometimes they end up retconning them later, see: Alfemi and Axel.) The details changed and there are some new additions (Lemon Browning being the clone-zombie Excellen) but the core events happen as intended. I'm starting to think we're arguing past each other again. Let me try and simplify my example here. 1. Prologue. Fury has hosed up earth. Lots of people are dying, desperate last stand. 2. Time Engine occurs, R people go back in time, realize they went back in time, try to prevent dystopian hellscape. 3. The plot of J plays out as normal with the addition of the R people to the mix, almost exactly like how A fused with Compact 2 and the Divine Crusader plots. 4. Things were changed, but the plot still played out as normal without stepping on any J fans' toesies!
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Jul 6, 2014 05:13
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I'm a fan of Ibis and her Alpha 2 storyline and I really hate what they did to Sleigh in the OG games. She had a legitimate reason to hate Ibis in Alpha 2, but her motivations in OG2 were petty and are perfectly summed up as "You're only here because you slept with the director" and I hate it.
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Jul 6, 2014 05:14
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Kanos posted:I'm starting to think we're arguing past each other again. Let me try and simplify my example here. The problem there is that the J plot is predicated on both of the protagonists have a Big rear end Secret, which the R guys would have to know and act on to do something interesting with that plotline, which is turn would derail their plots. Pretty much everything about the Fury is built on the idea they're surprising to the protagonists and the way they react to that surprise (especially when it comes at a particularly bad moment.) That is what I mean by this being a problem. It works in SRWR because they are able to take action which derails disasters before they happen, which is interesting when done with the anime shows because they've been done, often multiple times, and subverting or altering their plots is part of the appeal of SRW classic. It's really cool in SRWR and why I liked that game! J's plot is pretty paper-thin to begin with, basically. v  v It's got a lot of potential for crossover but it doesn't have much else going for it that could survive an R-ing. That's kind of the downside of the originals as a whole. They really mostly have paper-thin plots which are far less welcoming to something cool like SRWR because they have like 5 'stages' of plot in their home games, aside from Kusuha/The SRX Guys/Sanger. The best originals serve to screw with other people's plots as opposed to having their own, with OG is a lot less welcoming towards.Edit: Basically, it isn't R's fault. It is the fact that a bunch of other Originals can't carry R's strong concept to its logical conclusion without collapsing under the weight of it. That said, I really don't think it is because of hatred for R. R got retconned into OG2, was part of OGG and survived the cut into OG2nd where the Compact guys didn't. That doesn't strike me as "we hate these guys" behavior. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 05:26
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e: Come on, retconned into OG2? Raul shows up alone for the last 8 stages of the game and nobody even interacts with him. He's just sort of there like an easter egg.ImpAtom posted:The problem there is that the J plot is predicated on both of the protagonists have a Big rear end Secret, which the R guys would have to know and act on to do something interesting with that plotline, which is turn would derail their plots. Pretty much everything about the Fury is built on the idea they're surprising to the protagonists and the way they react to that surprise (especially when it comes at a particularly bad moment.) The R cast wouldn't have to know anything about Touya and Calvina's backstories to spoil them, though. Presumably in a future where the Fury won, Touya and Calvina either never became protagonists or they died, sort of like how Excellen died in the Shadow Mirror universe and how Beowulf Kyosuke became a horrible Einst monster instead. The R people could act as a plot dump on vaguely what the Fury are to be filled in by Touya/Calvina/The Powerpuff Girls later as things progress. To round this page-long discussion off, I think we can at least agree that the R cast got an incredibly raw deal compared to every other protagonist group in OG and now I'm simply discussing might-have-beens to assuage my sadness that some of my favorite originals got the shaft. They couldn't at least keep their robots? Kanos fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jul 6, 2014 |
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Jul 6, 2014 05:38
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Hellioning posted:I just want the non-Kusuha Alpha originals to be relevant again. Like, have all of the A-listers get teleported away to another dimension and have the Earth be defended by Kai, Tasuku, Leona, Carla, Yuuki, Ryoto, Rio, Russel, and Katina. And Masaki, because he manages to wander back home before anyone else can find it, because Midorikawa would throw a fit if he weren't in this. Ryoto and Rio are forming a new cool team with Irm and Ing so we'll hopefully get their adventures at some point. At the very least they need new rides, Irm's dad can supply them with prototypes of whatever comes after the Exbein. I think I just want the Boxer back, so give me something like that and let's go. I'd love some more team attacks if they're going to stick more to the "no this is the right mech for this guy" thing. Where's Katina and Russell going "Rampage Ghost huh? Hey Russell hold that dude still while I come and beat the crap out of him. And you." Kai and Gilliam showing that love between two men doesn't have to be expressed with a horse? Yuuki and Carla. Grungusts everywhere. Kanos posted:The R cast wouldn't have to know anything about Touya and Calvina's backstories to spoil them, though. Presumably in a future where the Fury won, Touya and Calvina either never became protagonists or they died, sort of like how Excellen died in the Shadow Mirror universe and how Beowulf Kyosuke became a horrible Einst monster instead. The R people could act as a plot dump on vaguely what the Fury are to be filled in by Touya/Calvina/The Powerpuff Girls later as things progress. The obvious one to me for this is that in the other timeline she died in the Fury attack on the facility she worked at and this time the R crew were there to get her out. Touya was there going to visit his dad or whatever and the Fury attacked because they found out he was going native or whatever.
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Jul 6, 2014 06:10
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Kanos posted:one of the most awful and lovely SRWs in modern history I agree that the R originals feel like they got the short end of the stick but come now. OGG was a mess, but you've got to admit it was pretty great to run around with giant robot Kenshiro and see Dark Brain again after all these years.  EthanSteele posted:Ryoto and Rio are forming a new cool team with Irm and Ing so we'll hopefully get their adventures at some point. I hope this is the case, but I have a sinking feeling that the former two especially will just continue to be Original the Machinery Barshem's backup dancers.
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Jul 6, 2014 06:16
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EthanSteele posted:Touya was there going to visit his dad or whatever and the Fury attacked because they found out he was going native or whatever. That would be kind of hard since Touya's dad died way before J happens.  Not gonna lie, J is the SRW plot I most want to see get redone. Touya particularly, they just forgot what they wanted to do with him midway through or something.
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Jul 6, 2014 06:41
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I'm mostly curious to see how they handle the Powerpuff Girls and two protagonists at the same time.
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Jul 6, 2014 08:42
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As long as Calvina and Katina become Anger-Buddies it'll be good.
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Jul 6, 2014 10:10
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Three sidekicks and two protagonists is a problem easily solved by giving the EXExbein a two-seater upgrade.
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Jul 6, 2014 10:24
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1st Stage Midboss posted:Three sidekicks and two protagonists is a problem easily solved by giving the EXExbein a two-seater upgrade. Only if it gets a bigger backpack with even more pointy bits sticking out of it.
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Jul 6, 2014 15:34
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ImpAtom posted:I'm mostly curious to see how they handle the Powerpuff Girls and two protagonists at the same time.
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Jul 6, 2014 15:50
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I will be so salty if Calvina gets shafted for Touya's harem extravaganza. 
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Jul 6, 2014 16:26
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Maybe Calvina's boyfriend will be recruitable or something when OG rolls around
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Jul 6, 2014 17:12
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Couldn't you get him in J? I'm pretty sure Touya could at least if he didn't use any of the girls enough.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:45
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You know what, I kinda wonder if an OG reboot would be useful to do some of the original plots but with the freedom to change them up a bit. If anything that's how I think a Z-based OG would work - instead of the various worlds being like Eureka Seven or Gundam SEED, there's the Shadow Mirror world and Balmar-Are-Invading world and Fury's On the Moon World. It could work out pretty decently by just substituting what was going on in Z - the Fury replace the Moon Race, the Eldar and Gaizock and Aldebaron's roles are put into the Balmar, while the Divine Crusaders mirror what was going on with the Zeta stuff, and I guess the Einst are the Zeravire? And then the Black History turns out to be the events of the previous OG-Verse until the opposite of a Dimensional Quake happened and split everything apart and reset them all into seperate universes...i.e. the events of the individual games all those guys come from. come on Banpresto you complained about how Z OG wouldn't work, I am handing it to you right now
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Jul 6, 2014 17:45
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Ethiser posted:Couldn't you get him in J? I'm pretty sure Touya could at least if he didn't use any of the girls enough.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:50
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Ethiser posted:Couldn't you get him in J? I'm pretty sure Touya could at least if he didn't use any of the girls enough. Yeah, he'll join and survive automatically in Calvina's route.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:51
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Endorph posted:You can get him as a secret unit in the last map by fulfilling certain conditions, I believe. You get him automatically on the last map, but he only survives the post battle scene if you haven't paired Touya up with anyone, or alternately he survives if you use Calvina, no strings attatched.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:54
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In my ideal dream world you'd get Granteed, Belzellute and Coustwell and you'd be able to slot in anyone into that third mech.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:15
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I don't have much experience with the OG games, but I liked Viletta in Alpha Gaiden, mostly because of her great theme song. Does she get to do anything in any of the games?
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Jul 6, 2014 18:19
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Endorph posted:Honestly it'll probably go Touya getting all three of the girls in the same way it worked int J, and Calvina gets jack. And kidnapped at some point. Hopefully it will work like the Element system to allow you to swap them around.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:20
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MonsieurChoc posted:I don't have much experience with the OG games, but I liked Viletta in Alpha Gaiden, mostly because of her great theme song. Does she get to do anything in any of the games?
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Jul 6, 2014 18:20
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Samurai Sanders posted:Other than briefly in the first game, she's just kind of there, unfortunately. Lots of characters are just kind of there. That's too bad. Maybe she wasn't anime enough.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:44
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Samurai Sanders posted:Other than briefly in the first game, she's just kind of there, unfortunately. Lots of characters are just kind of there. Viletta is still part of the SRX team and will likely cycle back into the spotlight when the Alpha 3 plotline finally hits.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:56
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I just want the Shuras back and I'll be happy...  At least, with the Crossgate there, the Swordian can act as the Excellium and come out of it at the start of the Balmar Invasion.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:01
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GimmickMan posted:In my ideal dream world you'd get Granteed, Belzellute and Coustwell and you'd be able to slot in anyone into that third mech. No Raftclans, no deal.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:02
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Bertram Weatherby posted:No Raftclans, no deal. Raftclans will definitely be a secret unit, whether it'll be piloted by Calvina/Toya or Al-Van is in the air. Honestly I kind of expect it to go Granteed-Toya and Bellzelute-Calvina, with Ja-Mu having Coustwell which is an obtainable secret after Ja-Mu gets killed off.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:14
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TARDISman posted:Raftclans will definitely be a secret unit, whether it'll be piloted by Calvina/Toya or Al-Van is in the air. Honestly I kind of expect it to go Granteed-Toya and Bellzelute-Calvina, with Ja-Mu having Coustwell which is an obtainable secret after Ja-Mu gets killed off. Ja-Mu goes too definitively crazy and even before that, he's still kind of a butt. Fu-Lu on the other hand, she's way more reasonable and cool, I could see her as a good secret pilot to use the Coustwell with. Though obviously you should get it before that - each of the girls should escape with their own mech instead of piling into a single one, and you can switch them around freely.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:42
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Gyra_Solune posted:Ja-Mu goes too definitively crazy and even before that, he's still kind of a butt. Fu-Lu on the other hand, she's way more reasonable and cool, I could see her as a good secret pilot to use the Coustwell with. Though obviously you should get it before that - each of the girls should escape with their own mech instead of piling into a single one, and you can switch them around freely. The main reason I said Ja-Mu was because his fighting style is considerably closer to Coustwell's style than Fu-Lu's. Case in point, his strongest attack in his Raftclans is the Claw style attack, compared to Fu-Lu's Rifle based attack. He wouldn't be a secret character, just his robot.
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Jul 6, 2014 19:51
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