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systran posted:We tried making a separate group for short fiction once but it died because it took us all too long to finish drafts. I think we had a two-week deadline for like 7k-8k word stories, and only three people were participating out of like ~10 from the main group. Yeah...there were definitely weeks where I spent longer on the Skype call than actually writing :/ I don't think I did tooooo much making GBS threads out dumb poo poo though. We tried to figure out a good balance for achievable deadlines vs. staying motivated vs. the issues of critiquing a first draft, but we never quite got it. I think having one really consistent person (it was you, Systran!) helped a lot in the first semester. When I was trying to hold us together and keep it going, I just wasn't consistent enough myself -- I expect that will be a problem for me for a long time. Oh, and I don't mean to imply that everyone else wasn't trying to hold us together. We all were, but life kept getting in the way. I'm still not sure what the best way to achieve this balance is. Maybe no one HAS to write for the week, but you can only Skype if you write? Or is not-skyping more of a motivation to not write? or if you can't make the Skype, would you be lazier about writing? We all vote each week and whoever gets the most votes gets a $5 amazon gift card, lol. (And you can't win twice in a row) Maybe the feedback on first draft thing could be fixed by severely limiting the length of crits. I feel like in our written critiques we ended up getting too caught up in small things. Also they were kind of a pain and I often spent more time critting than I did writing. I think something like...3 sentences: what you liked the best, what you liked the least, what confused you. That might be too extreme, but I do think limits would help. Especially if the group is going to be rather large. I also think that it was useful when we had larger-scale reviews of multiple chapters, once people got there. I am also thinking...maybe we split the group in half, and each half works on first-drafts together, then revise, and the second draft goes to the other group? Because it was kind of hard to judge revisions when you had information from the first draft/knew what was coming next. I'm not sure. I look forward to trying again though. I'm glad a lot of our original cast is interested in the relaunch! Edit: 
Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 04:40
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Maybe a modified Toxx thing? Like, if the goal is 3000 words, and you only manage 2000, donate $5 to charity. 1000, $10 to charity. Nothing at all, $15 to charity. I mean, the precise amount of money / effort doesn't matter, it's more the public shaming aspect of it that I think might work.
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Jul 12, 2014 11:52
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I think it's not a huge deal if not everyone does a thing every week, if there's enough people in on it. Maybe a rotating list of who's up to submit each week? People could swap places if they wanted, I guess, but it'd have to be a swap, not a cancellation.
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Jul 12, 2014 12:09
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I don't want to derail the thread too much with this, but I'm leaning toward either Sitting Here or me making the group and just choosing how it works based on experience. I will try to catch her and some people who did it before on IRC and we can figure out what to do. Ultimately you have to be motivated on your own to write, and no amount of hoops are going to force you to do it. Having a simple setup, basic requirements, and being involved with other people writing should be enough to keep you going. I strongly agree that crits of first drafts should be short. I'm thinking five sentences, which is more than you'll get in a rejection letter from a publisher. This requires people writing crits to think hard about what works and doesn't work rather than fixating on random poo poo that doesn't much matter. After I've talked to Sitting Here on IRC one of us will post a forum link or google groups info on how to join. If you have PMs just PM me now and it will help me get an idea of how many people want to join.
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Jul 12, 2014 16:52
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I'm in a funk, been in one for a week now. I wrote my first draft of a short story, and I'm trying to get a second draft going but I have a weird problem. When I write I can't quite comprehend what I'm writing. poo poo, writing this post right now is hard as gently caress for some reason and I don't understand what is happening. I can read and understand other things, I can read and understand what I've written before but whatever I'm in the process of writing just becomes a confused mess. So I haven't made any progress in a week. And I'm frustrated as all hell. Has anyone else had similar problems? Is this just a "take some time off" kind of thing? I'm not under any pressure to get this thing done either so I don't understand at all.
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Jul 12, 2014 19:43
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organburner posted:I'm in a funk, been in one for a week now. I assume you mean you don't know where plot threads are going, what character motivations are, etc.? This is where outlines come in! I think a lot of people consider outlines as more of a tool for novel-length pieces, but they are honestly pretty important for short stories, too. How detailed you get depends on you. Some people just need broad strokes, while others go nuts and write D&D-style character sheets for every single character that appears in their piece. I used to write without outlines, and while my technique improved, I found that I wasn't getting any better at telling an actual story. Now I try to do at least a rough outline for everything, regardless of length. I'm still very much learning by trial and error (and by getting torn apart by better writers), but I basically went through the exact same process that you're going through now. On the other hand, if this is something that's never happened before, it might very well be a situation where you just need to take a step back before coming at it again. You can definitely get to a point where you are too "deep" into a piece and it suddenly feels like everything you do is aimless. You said this is a second draft: are you rewriting major chunks, or just going through and tightening things up?
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Jul 12, 2014 21:44
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Hey, so. I made up a rough little board for us to start with. Depending on how things go, a better, more customized board may be in the works. There won't be a penalty for missing a week, and people are welcome to sign up so we can get this off the ground. The goal is to have a consistent pool of people who are willing to submit and crit on at least a semi weekly basis. Peer pressure can be added as needed. I have a few ideas of how to help people motivate themselves, but it really depends on how much interest we get. When would people want to have an official first week? I'd be ready to start as soon as this Friday, but that might be too short of notice. Anyway, here's the link, lets see what happens. http://writergoons.jcink.net/
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Jul 13, 2014 07:10
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systran posted:I don't want to derail the thread too much with this, but I'm leaning toward either Sitting Here or me making the group and just choosing how it works based on experience. I will try to catch her and some people who did it before on IRC and we can figure out what to do. Ultimately you have to be motivated on your own to write, and no amount of hoops are going to force you to do it. Having a simple setup, basic requirements, and being involved with other people writing should be enough to keep you going. I strongly agree with this post and also SittingHere's. I am really glad you are doing this again, since you had the most success getting us together and keeping us going. I look forward to writing with you again  edit: even though I always try to come up with hoops for motivation, none of them ever work. I agree that you have to find it within yourself somehow. Hopefully the group will help though! wtf is this sincere posting Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 08:31
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Sitting Here posted:Hey, so. I made up a rough little board for us to start with. Depending on how things go, a better, more customized board may be in the works. I'm good to go whenever. Personally I'm most motivated by letting myself down.
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Jul 13, 2014 13:52
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I'm up for it, but can't contribute until Friday week, as I'm super busy teaching at the moment.
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Jul 13, 2014 16:06
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Do we have to add an extra step before introducing minority protagonists? I've heard that the reader tends to project themselves into and identify with traditional conventions like white leads, and that not going with an ethnic name or behavior right off the bat can lead the reader to be jarred by what to them is a out of nowhere ethnicity reveal/ identification of the character they invested in with "the other" outliers.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:16
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Sithsaber posted:Do we have to add an extra step before introducing minority protagonists? I've heard that the reader tends to project themselves into and identify with traditional conventions like white leads, and that not going with an ethnic name or behavior right off the bat can lead the reader to be jarred by what to them is a out of nowhere ethnicity reveal/ identification of the character they invested in with "the other" outliers. You should provide your reader with any details that will affect either the story or setting, and leave out the ones that won't. No reason to overthink it. Read your favorite books and see how they convey this information, then use that as a starting point.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:48
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Sithsaber posted:Do we have to add an extra step before introducing minority protagonists? I've heard that the reader tends to project themselves into and identify with traditional conventions like white leads, and that not going with an ethnic name or behavior right off the bat can lead the reader to be jarred by what to them is a out of nowhere ethnicity reveal/ identification of the character they invested in with "the other" outliers.  Okay, so what you are kind of awkwardly fumbling around here is a problem called 'the unmarked state'. Readers will often assume that if you don't specify a character's race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever, it is the default (whatever their default may be). This is a pretty basic trait of human cognition. You can get around this issue without being a shithead by finding appropriate, understated, contextually appropriate ways to mark these states for your characters. You should try to be even-handed about this. Don't leave your white characters unmarked and point out other races, for instance; that's just driving home the racial default. If you think that 'an ethnic name or behavior' is something you should...I don't even know what you mean by that, or how to explain why it's a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea. Are you asking whether all your characters need to confirm to crude ethnic stereotypes so readers won't be surprised to learn they aren't white? No. Jesus, treat your characters as people, do good research on other cultures and religions, allow your characters to act like real people from real places, be respectful and sensitive and don't use other peoples' heritage as a cheap 'exotic' thrill in your work. Like Nika said, read decent books, examine how they do it. Make sure they're actually decent, though, since a lot of authors really gently caress this stuff up. A good story should provide a lot of respectful, effective ways to explain who a character is and where they come from without staring in a mirror or infodumping a biography. Please don't call things 'ethnic', gently caress. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 06:02
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General Battuta posted:
As a dark skinned hispanic, I reserve the right to feel ostracized by society at large. I just don't know how to organically buildup racial tension without mocking Dixie or throwing in gratuitous spanish.
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Jul 14, 2014 06:08
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is something you should...I don't even know what you mean by that, or how to explain why it's a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea. Are you asking whether all your characters need to confirm to crude ethnic stereotypes so readers won't be surprised to learn they aren't white? No. Jesus, treat your characters as people, do good research on other cultures and religions, allow your characters to act like real people from real places, be respectful and sensitive and don't use other peoples' heritage as a cheap 'exotic' thrill in your work. Like Nika said, read decent books, examine how they do it. Make sure they're actually decent, though, since a lot of authors really gently caress this stuff up.
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I totally respect your right to feel ostracized, but I'm not sure I understand how that connects to the question you're asking. You shouldn't feel like you have to pigeonhole your characters to please readers. Have you read Junot Diaz? I think he's very good at handling stuff like this in his writing. He illustrates a lot of the attitudes his characters negotiate (and hold) without coming right out and explaining things.
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Jul 14, 2014 06:14
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Sithsaber posted:As a dark skinned hispanic, I reserve the right to feel ostracized by society at large. I just don't know how to organically buildup racial tension without mocking Dixie or throwing in gratuitous spanish. Consider your own experiences as a person of color and how you've been marginalized in both real life and in fiction. And then go the other way in your own writing. And again, read your favorite books and study them; learn how they handle the issues you find most troublesome. Because without any context I'm afraid I cannot be of much help to you! edit: and yes, this, forever General Battuta posted:A good story should provide a lot of respectful, effective ways to explain who a character is and where they come from without staring in a mirror or infodumping a biography. Nika fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 06:16
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General Battuta posted:I totally respect your right to feel ostracized, but I'm not sure I understand how that connects to the question you're asking. You shouldn't feel like you have to pigeonhole your characters to please readers. Have you read Junot Diaz? I think he's very good at handling stuff like this in his writing. He illustrates a lot of the attitudes his characters negotiate (and hold) without coming right out and explaining things. I'm trying to figure out how to show my character's race without turning them into a caricature or something dishonest to my story. Ps. I would go into detail if the story in question wasn't a part of my thunderdome brawl.
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Jul 14, 2014 06:18
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If your character's name doesn't convey the information up front, you can always just say it. Sometimes dancing around and trying to do it indirectly is pretty awkward. I know that must sound really disjointed from my advice above - I wish I had an example of someone doing it really well to show you.
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Jul 14, 2014 06:31
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General Battuta posted:If your character's name doesn't convey the information up front, you can always just say it. Sometimes dancing around and trying to do it indirectly is pretty awkward. I know that must sound really disjointed from my advice above - I wish I had an example of someone doing it really well to show you. I've decided to emulate Brian d' Amato and just talk poo poo about the confederate battle flag. Ps. By right of blood and skin palette I reserve the right to use the phrase "ethnic name". By my inpronunciable title, I claim "ethnic in perpetuity (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 14, 2014 06:44
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Sithsaber posted:I'm trying to figure out how to show my character's race without turning them into a caricature or something dishonest to my story. I'm still not entirely sure why you won't just refer to your favorite books for guidance on this, but I'll try again. This guy  wrote a book called Under Heaven, and after two pages, without even reading the book's jacket copy, I understood what the intended race/ethnicity/appearance of the main characters was supposed to be: quote:His father had been in that war, a general, honoured afterwards with a proud title, Left Side Commander of the Pacified West. Rewarded handsomely by the Son of Heaven for victory: a personal audience in the Hall of Brilliance in the Ta-Ming Palace when he returned back east, the purple sash presented, words of commendation spoken directly, a jade gift extended from the emperor’s hand, only one intermediary. I wouldn't call that a caricature at all, personally.
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Jul 14, 2014 06:45
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Sithsaber posted:Ps. By right of blood and skin palette I reserve the right to use the phrase "ethnic name". By my inpronunciable title, I claim "ethnic in perpetuity Dude I appreciate that you want help with writing but I beg of you, please try to express yourself in a non-insane way so that people can help you better.
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Jul 14, 2014 22:11
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Quick question: I posted a thread for the first couple of chapters of a project I hope to make novel length someday, and it just got archived (Elysium). I've finally gotten around to writing a subsequent chapter and a half, and I'm slightly concerned about just posting too much drat words. My contributions from the past thread totaled together is about 10,000 words. The new stuff (a chapter and a half) is about 7,000. Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but should I just link to the archived thread for my previous chapter, and just post the new stuff or just post the entire gut busting thing? Either way, I'd love to have the incredibly helpful feedback I got in the first thread. Thanks.
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Jul 14, 2014 23:51
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Shageletic posted:Quick question: I posted a thread for the first couple of chapters of a project I hope to make novel length someday, and it just got archived (Elysium). I've finally gotten around to writing a subsequent chapter and a half, and I'm slightly concerned about just posting too much drat words. My contributions from the past thread totaled together is about 10,000 words. The new stuff (a chapter and a half) is about 7,000. Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but should I just link to the archived thread for my previous chapter, and just post the new stuff or just post the entire gut busting thing? Either way, I'd love to have the incredibly helpful feedback I got in the first thread. To answer your next question, no we can't pull stuff back out of archives due to Reasons, nor can we recover anything but the plain rendered text (ie not the bbcode, etc).
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Jul 15, 2014 01:13
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The Worst Muse Twitter feed is showing promise:The Worst Muse posted:You SHOULD base your protagonist on you. Disguise him by giving him really intense green eyes and an ancestral weapon. You don't have those! The Worst Muse posted:You won't have to do as much research if you replace the city's immigrant population with elves. The Worst Muse posted:It's doesn't really count as exposition if a character is just reminiscing out loud.
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Jul 15, 2014 04:14
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I like him and Literary Agent Vader. https://twitter.com/AgentVader quote:The mere fact that @simonschuster will charge an author up to $14K to self pub is loving mind boggling. magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 04:36
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SoundMonkey posted:Dude I appreciate that you want help with writing but I beg of you, please try to express yourself in a non-insane way so that people can help you better. My joke actually summed up the problem behind my question. When I used the word ethnic without revealing my ethnicity, General Battuta reacted a bit negatively. If I had said I was hispanic from the outset, he might have not taken offense. This relates to my question because I don't want to illicit this exact same reaction when I forget to include basic information like common social tensions or a otherwise completely integrated character who out of nowhere complains about country music or rice and beans. My crazy joke was just me poking fun at how quickly that guy withdrew his critique once I revealed my skin color.
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Jul 15, 2014 04:40
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My critique's not withdrawn. I'm not going to lecture you on how to experience race, but people of all backgrounds end up writing badly about the topic.
General Battuta fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 04:43
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General Battuta posted:My critique's not withdrawn. I'm not going to lecture you on how to experience race, but people of all backgrounds end up writing badly about the topic. I just meant the use of the phrase "ethnic name" mainly because you were right to assume that my name is ethic.(and that's okay)
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Jul 15, 2014 04:45
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Sithsaber posted:I just meant the use of the phrase "ethnic name" mainly because you were right to assume that my name is ethic.(and that's okay) You know, I was just about to ask if people prefer writing to music. See, I like writing to Peter Gabriel myself (among others, of course), and it turns out I have a pretty decent song of his for this situation! Also: magnificent7 posted:I like him and Literary Agent Vader. A publisher charges you 12k to self publish? How does that work? I guess if you're under contract to them...?
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Jul 15, 2014 04:53
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Sithsaber posted:My crazy joke was just me poking fun at how quickly that guy withdrew his critique once I revealed my skin color. Your writing is bad and you suck a lot.
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Jul 15, 2014 04:54
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quote:The Worst Muse @WorstMuse · Jul 7 i'd read that
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Jul 15, 2014 05:14
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Should I care more about freytag's pyramid/dramatic arc or Campbell's monomyth/ story circle?
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Jul 15, 2014 06:10
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Sithsaber posted:Should I care more about freytag's pyramid/dramatic arc or Campbell's monomyth/ story circle? You should care, first and foremost, about telling your story. I say that as someone who is horrible at sitting down and putting words to paper, but I know enough to know that no single theory or approach is going to tell the story for you. Read up on them if you want, they can't hurt, but in the end stories are always their own beast. People who stick too rigidly to formulas and theories usually end up shooting themselves in the foot.
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Jul 15, 2014 06:26
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Sithsaber posted:My joke actually summed up the problem behind my question. When I used the word ethnic without revealing my ethnicity, General Battuta reacted a bit negatively. If I had said I was hispanic from the outset, he might have not taken offense. This relates to my question because I don't want to illicit this exact same reaction when I forget to include basic information like common social tensions or a otherwise completely integrated character who out of nowhere complains about country music or rice and beans. good troll dude, you're really upping your game in here. DivisionPost posted:You know, I was just about to ask if people prefer writing to music. See, I like writing to Peter Gabriel myself (among others, of course), and it turns out I have a pretty decent song of his for this situation! I like to listen to ambient music or really dramatic film scores when I write, if anything. Lyrics tend to be too distracting. Glitch and Electronica are okay, too but only for writing sci-fi B) edit: Another good writing blog is http://slushpilehell.tumblr.com quote:Dear guys: edit 2: "writing" blog Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 15, 2014 07:38
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FouRPlaY posted:The Worst Muse Twitter feed is showing promise: I'm guilty of thinking like the second one down. Hrm if I do this in a fantasy world I won't have to research as much. Then inevitably someone gets on a boat or a horse and off to wikipedia I go. It's a vicious cycle. This is a good post but Sithsaber is on a weird ego thing right now where he thinks he's a cool dude who is simultaneously trolling and yet also bringing intense realness to this square-rear end thread. It's best to let these ones tire themselves out and not prod them too much.
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Jul 15, 2014 07:49
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SoundMonkey posted:To answer your next question, no we can't pull stuff back out of archives due to Reasons, nor can we recover anything but the plain rendered text (ie not the bbcode, etc). Alrighty, looks like I'll just post everything I have so far, each chapter its own post. So many words.... Shame about the archived thread not being findable (at least during my search). It had some great encouraging stuff on there.
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Jul 15, 2014 12:26
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Sithsaber posted:Should I care more about freytag's pyramid/dramatic arc or Campbell's monomyth/ story circle? People fall into the trap of assuming descriptive theories, like the monomyth or the Hero's Journey, are presecriptive theories. They aren't so much "here's how to write a good story" as "here's how a lot of good stories are organized". Don't worry about writing to someone else's structure.
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Jul 15, 2014 15:29
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The only real structure you need for a story is "write until you can connect the start point to the end." It's also why I just had to step away from thirty thousands words, because I realized I didn't have an end point in mind, just a couple of middles. Does anyone write under a pseudonym? I'm taking advice from a few friends and forcing myself to start a blog, register a domain name, really just start building a lovely fuckin' presence for myself online, and one of the big bits of advice that gets put online is "make your name your brand, make your authorial presence an easy thing for potential editors/publishers/agents to find in a google search." Thing is, I have the same name as a record label CEO with a big PR team, and he dominates search results. I'm a long way away from selling novel manuscripts, so I'm not super concerned just yet, but it's something I've started thinking about. I'm kind of bummed out that I can't conceivably write under my own name if I'm going to get those sweet Google first-page hits. So, does anyone write under a pseudonym? Why? How'd you pick it?
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Jul 15, 2014 15:57
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Sithsaber Shut up.
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Jul 15, 2014 20:42
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Whalley posted:How'd you pick it? Just seek to a random location in this video and use whatever name they say next. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFHlJ2voJHY
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Jul 15, 2014 22:13
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