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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:not only American PDs either. The Met in London have been saying "well this crime could be this, but we'll classify it as this so we'll look better" for years The Japanese Police have been doing this for quite a while. They only call it a murder when they basically already know who did it, otherwise it is an accident or suicide. That's how they have a 95% solve rate on murders.
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Jun 29, 2014 09:39
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pokeyman posted:I'm in the same boat, and I wonder if it has to do with familiarity. I guess it's possible to love season 2 immediately on first viewing but it seems pretty rare. I know I haven't seen much (any?) other TV about blue collar union workers, and beyond the superficial level I didn't really get how it fit in with the show until the second go round. This thread helped a lot too, explaining how it's just another side of the same coin. I'm on my first trip through season 2 and I "got" how the docks storyline is showing a different facet of how systemic issues affect the working class, but it's jarring to have the show basically split in half now: one half involves characters and plots that I'm already invested in, and the other half starts out with me being apprehensive over whether it's going to be a "heh, unions are mobsters amirite" caricature. It's clearly not (and I'm only at episode, like, 5?), but it was still jarring at first.
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Jun 30, 2014 03:59
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I'm on my first trip through season 2 and I "got" how the docks storyline is showing a different facet of how systemic issues affect the working class, but it's jarring to have the show basically split in half now: one half involves characters and plots that I'm already invested in, and the other half starts out with me being apprehensive over whether it's going to be a "heh, unions are mobsters amirite" caricature. It's clearly not (and I'm only at episode, like, 5?), but it was still jarring at first. Right, I got the "white folk getting hosed too!!" angle the first time, but I shared that apprehension that the show was going off into the weeds somewhere or totally dropping all these awesome characters from season 1. That apprehension took awhile to disappear, probably until season 3, when it's made clear that the world of season 1 still exists. (It sounded less tautological in my head.)
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Jun 30, 2014 16:33
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It's a perfectly reasonable reaction to have. Season 1 was intense and you didn't get the full closure you would expect from a "normal" cop show, so you're looking to season 2 and getting disappointed that they're in an entirely new part of town.
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Jun 30, 2014 19:40
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I started writing a post about how it was the degree and manner in which the show changed focus that threw me off, but as I was writing it I realized that the real issue might be that I'm not used to that kind of transition happening in a TV show. I'm accustomed to shows introducing characters and plot threads gradually, or having an apocalyptic event (in plot terms) which is then followed by one or a few characters from before in a new setting. But here, season 1 ends with apocalyptic events (the convictions and the scattering of the investigators) but the only "new setting" involves completely new characters, plot, and themes. But now that I think about it, this is a pretty common plotting device (or whatever the actual writers' term for it is). I don't recoil when a story cuts somewhere new in other media, like books or film (or hell, even video games). In fact that's one of the things I really enjoy about (for example) the Discworld series, where a book might focus on completely new characters, but here and there some previously-introduced characters or plot threads get introduced and things are woven together to create a bigger story.
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Jun 30, 2014 21:37
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You still see a lot of the same cops, it's just harder to tell where everything is going at first and they're not all working together as a unit in the way they were previously.thrakkorzog posted:The Japanese Police have been doing this for quite a while. They only call it a murder when they basically already know who did it, otherwise it is an accident or suicide. That's how they have a 95% solve rate on murders. Does anyone know about any sort of day-to-day accounting of murder investigations similar to Homicide, but for the Japanese police?
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Jun 30, 2014 23:32
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I have really loved 3 and 4 more than any others. I just love the street characters so much, despite hating them in the beginning because they were just villains. I can't stand Marlo though - wish he would have gotten killed.
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Jul 5, 2014 01:11
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Parachute Underwear posted:
Tokyo Vice is the closest thing to it that I've encountered in english.
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Jul 5, 2014 02:29
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oswald ownenstein posted:I can't stand Marlo though - wish he would have gotten killed.
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Jul 5, 2014 11:19
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Stare-Out posted:He got it even worse than that in the end; Omar's legend overshadowed his own by miles and Marlo, having never been aware of Omar's challenge, was basically labeled a bitch on the streets. And since he had to leave the game, there's no way for him to prove that claim otherwise anymore. Marlo lost, and he lost hard. I figured Marlo would violate his deal and end up back in prison because of this. He can't stay out of the game with all that hanging over him.
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Jul 5, 2014 14:11
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Marlo bordered on cartoon-ish for me. I could never fully buy into the idea that he somehow outmaneuvered and outmuscled the existing drug organizations.
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Jul 5, 2014 14:24
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Naet posted:Marlo bordered on cartoon-ish for me. I could never fully buy into the idea that he somehow outmaneuvered and outmuscled the existing drug organizations. Don't forget that the existing drug organizations were in a bit of a rut. The Barksdales were dangerous but had been gutted, and now Stringer Bell was running around trying to make the drug game civilised, hence all the drug bosses having CO-OP meetings and avoiding conflict. It was pretty much perfect for a chaotic newcomer to take advantage off.
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Jul 5, 2014 14:32
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Out of curiosity I just read over the Marlo Wiki article, it touches on the "how did he do that?" aspect and how deep disrespect cuts him.quote:Marlo's organization starts out small-time, operating in the vacuum left by the Barksdale Organization, and rises to the top of the Baltimore drug trade fairly quickly. A repeated theme in Marlo's characterization is his demand for unconditional respect, which trumps all other concerns. He frequently orders the deaths of those who disrespect him or undermine his name on the streets, however unwittingly. He is arguably the most violent and ruthless of the drug kingpins portrayed in The Wire. quote:Marlo "Black" Stanfield's background prior to his drug empire is largely unexplored. He was a previous suspect in an unsolved case for Homicide Detective Vernon Holley; Holley believed it was Marlo who killed his only witness as well as the original victims, yet no evidence could be traced back to him. The Barksdale Organization already had prime territory in the form of the towers and Avon expressed little interest in doing business outside them. Marlo's established rule and reputation is only noticed by the returning Barksdale dealers and soldiers when the towers are demolished and Avon wishes to return to their roots, escalating an all-out war over the new best territory of the westside. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlo_Stanfield
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Jul 5, 2014 15:32
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Yes, it does pay to remember that Marlo is DEAD at the end of season 3. He and his top lieutenants are all gathered in one incredibly vulnerable spot (Michael and a single partner would successfully stick it up at the end of the series) and are completely unaware that Slim has them under surveillance and a small army lead by Avon (equipped with hand grenades!) is coming to launch a surprise blitzkrieg on him. If the Detail had been a day (or hell even a few hours) later than they had been, Marlo would have been destroyed. Instead, Avon and most of the new muscle he brought in are taken off the streets, Stringer is dead and Marlo is alive and on the streets getting the credit for the latter.
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Jul 5, 2014 22:08
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UberJew posted:Tokyo Vice is the closest thing to it that I've encountered in english. I'll have a look at this, thanks!
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Jul 7, 2014 21:25
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I've been watching Oz, and a shitload of The Wire's actors were on it. Lt. Daniels, Herc and Lestor Freemon all show up within 3 episodes of each other. And Bodie's a regular.
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Jul 8, 2014 06:16
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Naet posted:Marlo bordered on cartoon-ish for me. I could never fully buy into the idea that he somehow outmaneuvered and outmuscled the existing drug organizations. He only had to outmaneuvre one - the Barksdales, and there he got super lucky. East Side had many large dealers but West was always a tyranny.
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Jul 8, 2014 10:02
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Lester is on a bunch of HBO shows, notably Treme. He is a great actor and now that i think about it i am ashamed to not know his real name...
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Jul 8, 2014 12:39
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Clarke Peters, and I'm tempted to say he was better on Treme than on The Wire, but I think he has more to do on Treme. I just finished watching Season 3 of Treme, and now I have to go buy Season 4.
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Jul 8, 2014 13:57
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Meltathon posted:Clarke Peters, and I'm tempted to say he was better on Treme than on The Wire, but I think he has more to do on Treme. I just finished watching Season 3 of Treme, and now I have to go buy Season 4. I love that he did a stint in Holby City, which is distinctly middle of the tier drama over here in the UK
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Jul 8, 2014 19:30
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He was pretty good in Red Hook Summer.
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Jul 9, 2014 00:40
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I know the point of Ziggy's character is that you're supposed to hate him and think he's a fuckup, but on a second watch he was SO overacted that it took me out of the show. That's probably why I didn't like season 2 the first time around, but I thought it was great on a second view knowing what happens instead of dreading another boring dockworker bar scene and wacky Ziggy. Ziggy's actor is good, his story is good, but I personally think they made him too extreme and in your face.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:07
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I loved Season 2 from the start, and it's still my favorite season. I think it really started to hammer the theme of the show home that year. Season one focused on the cops and a drug organization, so you knew things would be nasty. Season 2 started showing that, wherever you went in this city, things were hosed.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:35
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Bigass Moth posted:I know the point of Ziggy's character is that you're supposed to hate him and think he's a fuckup, but on a second watch he was SO overacted that it took me out of the show. That's probably why I didn't like season 2 the first time around, but I thought it was great on a second view knowing what happens instead of dreading another boring dockworker bar scene and wacky Ziggy. Ziggy's actor is good, his story is good, but I personally think they made him too extreme and in your face. I don't blame anyone for hating Ziggy, there's one on every dock. I like my real-life Ziggy though, he's an idiot sure, but makes work a lot more fun.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:59
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Re watching season 1, so much stuff you forget about/miss. Daniels: "You think the job is gonna save me? You think its gonna save you?" This is the first time I notice that that's echoed (In a completely different context) by Lester with "The Job will not save you Jimmy"
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Jul 13, 2014 02:20
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the culminator posted:Re watching season 1, so much stuff you forget about/miss. I just love McNulty's character throughout the first 4 seasons (don't hate the 5th, but don't love it). I feel like they did a perfect job making a morally ambiguous hero who's addicted to his job.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:59
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I'm watching for the first time. I just finished S1 E2. I literally do not understand anything the cops ever say or why people get angry. "Oh no he talked to the lieutenant judge at the district prosecutors deputy major department office. Let's yell at him."
drunken officeparty fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 22:23
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drunken officeparty posted:I'm watching for the first time. I just finished S1 E2. I literally do not understand anything the cops ever say or why people get angry. "Oh no he talked to the judge at the district prosecutors deputy major department office. Let's yell at him." He's going outside of the chain of command.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:26
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ElectricWizard posted:He's going outside of the chain of command. This is the reason for most of the guff Jimmy gets.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:50
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drunken officeparty posted:I'm watching for the first time. I just finished S1 E2. I literally do not understand anything the cops ever say or why people get angry. "Oh no he talked to the lieutenant judge at the district prosecutors deputy major department office. Let's yell at him." It's been said before, but it's very normal to be super confused the first time you watch the show until around 4 or 5 episodes in. The show doesn't really make any effort to explain what it's talking about to you, you have to sort of pick it up through context, and it can take a few episodes before it clicks. Stick with it! Also be careful about reading this thread, because it has lots of spoilers (a couple big ones on this very page, in fact).
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Jul 16, 2014 22:54
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Ainsley McTree posted:It's been said before, but it's very normal to be super confused the first time you watch the show until around 4 or 5 episodes in. The show doesn't really make any effort to explain what it's talking about to you, you have to sort of pick it up through context, and it can take a few episodes before it clicks. Stick with it! Yep, it took me a few tries to actually get into the show. I'd get an episode or two in and realize I had no idea who anybody was. Probably didn't help that I would start watching it in bed as I was falling asleep. Totally worth it though.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:05
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drunken officeparty posted:I'm watching for the first time. I just finished S1 E2. I literally do not understand anything the cops ever say or why people get angry. "Oh no he talked to the lieutenant judge at the district prosecutors deputy major department office. Let's yell at him." Jimmy's bosses will not listen to his pleas for resources to take down the Barksdale gang, so he is stirring a bunch of poo poo with a politically well-connected judge that he happens to know. That judge is spreading Jimmy's reservations all over town and forcing Jimmy's bosses to act, which makes them look like assholes for not acting already.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:20
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Bigass Moth posted:I know the point of Ziggy's character is that you're supposed to hate him and think he's a fuckup, but on a second watch he was SO overacted that it took me out of the show. That's probably why I didn't like season 2 the first time around, but I thought it was great on a second view knowing what happens instead of dreading another boring dockworker bar scene and wacky Ziggy. Ziggy's actor is good, his story is good, but I personally think they made him too extreme and in your face. Just in case anyone hasn't watched it, the actor who plays Ziggy is great in Generation Kill (which is itself a great miniseries by a lot of the same people who worked on the Wire).
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Jul 16, 2014 23:24
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I mean I understand the very basic gist of what is going on to move the plot forward but they talk about all these different offices and branches and ranks and how they interact with each other and my eyes just glaze over understanding none of it. I know he isn't supposed to be talking to the judge about things, I don't know why though. I mean they are on the same team and everything right?
drunken officeparty fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 01:17
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drunken officeparty posted:I mean I understand the very basic gist of what is going on to move the plot forward but they talk about all these different offices and branches and ranks and how they interact with each other and my eyes just glaze over understanding none of it. That's normal too! Don't worry about it too much; you're never going to get, like, an org chart that says "this is what a deputy ops does, he's in charge of x, y, and z, the current deputy ops is mr smith, here's a photo," you're just going to eventually get a sense of who's the boss of who through context. It doesn't happen right away but it happens, just go with it! quote:I know he isn't supposed to be talking to the judge about things, I don't know why though. I mean they are on the same team and everything right? They're supposed to be! But you're going to have to keep watching the show to see how that works out for Baltimore!
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Jul 17, 2014 01:44
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drunken officeparty posted:I know he isn't supposed to be talking to the judge about things, I don't know why though. I mean they are on the same team and everything right? Have you ever worked in a large company before? It's like that, but more so. Unhealthy office politics, people stabbing other people in the back to get ahead, people getting very very upset when someone screws them, petty vindictiveness, etc.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:08
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drunken officeparty posted:I mean I understand the very basic gist of what is going on to move the plot forward but they talk about all these different offices and branches and ranks and how they interact with each other and my eyes just glaze over understanding none of it. I know he isn't supposed to be talking to the judge about things, I don't know why though. I mean they are on the same team and everything right? The judge is in a totally different hierarchy. The judge has a lot political clout and can lean on Jimmy's bosses and, like most people, they don't like outsiders coming in and tell them what to do. Don't worry if it's hard to follow, I had to turn on subtitles for my girlfriend the first time she watched it. The one thing I'll say is that you do have to pay attention while you watch the show. If you get up to grab a drink or whatever in the middle or respond to some texts you got you'll likely miss something. And yeah, prob don't come back to this thread until you're done because you'll probably get things spoiled.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:21
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awesmoe posted:Have you ever worked in a large company before? It's like that, but more so. Unhealthy office politics, people stabbing other people in the back to get ahead, people getting very very upset when someone screws them, petty vindictiveness, etc. This. Imagine how mad your boss would get if you didn't like his instructions, so you went to tell his boss what a lovely job he's doing. Even in relatively healthy organizations this is frowned upon to a certain extent. If your boss is even remotely responsible and competent, you're supposed to respect his authority enough to not constantly second-guess and undermine him: there's not much point in "authority" if you get bypassed every time your "subordinates" disagree. But at least in healthy organizations, if your boss did something seriously unethical or unprofessional, this would be a rare and extreme circumstance that justified an extreme reaction. In the Baltimore police dept., not so much. Now multiply that by, you didn't just talk to his boss, you went and talked to a client or a journalist or some other outsider, who's now making a big stink on a larger scale. Even worse.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:51
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drunken officeparty posted:I mean I understand the very basic gist of what is going on to move the plot forward but they talk about all these different offices and branches and ranks and how they interact with each other and my eyes just glaze over understanding none of it. The inner workings of law enforcement become clear pretty quickly. I found the criminal conspiracy is harder to figure out because it's a lot more focused on unspoken hierarchies and bonds of trust. For law enforcement, the judge complaining to Deputy Commissioner Burrell (who is in charge of the day-to-day operations of the whole police force) leads to a "detail", where officers and detectives get pulled off their normal duties to run a new investigation. Burrell has no interest in actually working the investigation, because it will not result in immediate arrests that he can make political hay out of, so he tries to make sure the detail is staffed by the worst people possible. So Herc, Carver and Kima get pulled from the narcotics division, while McNulty gets pulled from Homicide. Bunk is McNulty's partner in homicide, but despite showing up in probably every episode, he is not on the detail. Pryzbylewski, a well-known idiot who is related to a high-ranking police commander, gets put on the detail, as well as Lestor Freamon, who has been stuck on a desk job for 13 years. All of the schmoes on the detail report to Lt. Daniels  Also important, even though she doesn't show up much is Assistant States Attorney Rhonda Pearlman  She is there to make sure that the case the detail is making is solid and offer advice about what evidence the detail needs to get to make the case stronger. She doesn't command any officers, but what she says goes nonetheless.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:05
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drunken officeparty posted:I mean they are on the same team and everything right? One of the basic truths this show tries to get across is the complex answer to this question. In regular fantasy TV, yes, all the police and judges and politicians are on the same team and they act as such. In real life, as portrayed by this show anyway... well, if you watch the whole thing, you'll see how profoundly disturbing the the truthful answer of "they're supposed to be" is.
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Jul 17, 2014 06:32
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