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SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012
Adam Hughes doing an art nouveau bayonetta.

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Mr. Neutron
Sep 15, 2012

~I'M THE BEST~
I don't know who that is but the picure is terrible, that woman looks nothing like Bayonetta and oh man that boob :stonk:

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
That was the special cover for a version of the game, and yeah its pretty terrible. Good technical skill is not enough to obscure the horror show anatomy and pose.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
I think the reason that looks flat as hell is mostly because her back is showing virtually no tension despite the torque of her body, it's like he did the back 1st and then painted the arms and legs on after he forgot what his plan had been.

Bayonetta is so hard to draw right, I am awe of the character designers to bang out sketch after sketch and they all look good.

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

Something that came up in another thread a while back is that the Ninja Gaiden games(PS360 not NES) were pretty close to DMC/Bayo/MGR:R, I've never played so I wonder would they be close enough to scratch the same itch gameplay wise? even if not exactly the same. All I find on the internet is flame wars at the level of "Dante/Ryu is a fag, Ryu/Dante is a real man".

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Hel posted:

Something that came up in another thread a while back is that the Ninja Gaiden games(PS360 not NES) were pretty close to DMC/Bayo/MGR:R, I've never played so I wonder would they be close enough to scratch the same itch gameplay wise? even if not exactly the same. All I find on the internet is flame wars at the level of "Dante/Ryu is a fag, Ryu/Dante is a real man".

They're similar but different.

Ninja Gaiden is a lot less focused around style and combos and a lot more around survival. It's a way more defensive game where the concept is to survive/block and attack enemies in the openings they leave. You have to play it significantly more defensively than you do DMC or Bayonetta and with much less of an emphasis on combos or risk/reward mechanics like taunts.

It's a fun game but it isn't the same and it's hard to say if it will scratch the same itch. It's a lot less 'stylish-action' and a lot more 'wants you to die' action, if that makes sense?

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 20, 2014

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012
I think if you're into the Clover / Platinum action games or DMC3 and 4 for specific reasons like, you really like experimenting with combo stuff or if getting perfect ranks on all modes is what appeals to you, then you might not be into the Ninja Gaidens. But I feel like if you're just into challenging 3D action games in general, it's hard to imagine not also liking NGB (dunno about NG2 since I haven't played it, but it seems like a very strong game too).

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

ImpAtom posted:

They're similar but different.

Ninja Gaiden is a lot less focused around style and combos and a lot more around survival. It's a way more defensive game where the concept is to survive/block and attack enemies in the openings they leave. You have to play it significantly more defensively than you do DMC or Bayonetta and with much less of an emphasis on combos or risk/reward mechanics like taunts.

It's a fun game but it isn't the same and it's hard to say if it will scratch the same itch. It's a lot less 'stylish-action' and a lot more 'wants you to die' action, if that makes sense?

Makes sense, might still be fun if I can get them for cheap. The first two are the best, right?

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Hel posted:

Makes sense, might still be fun if I can get them for cheap. The first two are the best, right?

Black > Sigma 1 >= Sigma 2. Do not play 3. Even with the fixed version of 3, it is still a bad bad game.

But yea like the other posters mentioned, NG aren't really for stylish combos. They are more about learning how to abuse invuln frames because the enemies come at you hard (and sometimes cheap).

Also the camera sucks :colbert:

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

Also the camera sucks :colbert:

That's no difference from Platinum :)

Will see if I can get the Sigma ones since I'm on PS3, What's the big differences?


VVVV: Nothing game breaking then, that's good to know.

Hel fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 20, 2014

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Hel posted:

Makes sense, might still be fun if I can get them for cheap. The first two are the best, right?

The Black version (X-Box exclusive but available to buy and download on the X-Box 360) is probably the best. The other versions aren't unplayable or anything but that one sort of hits the sweet spot. Sigma has more content but the reception to some of it is a little iffy. Not worth worrying about if Sigma is your only choice.

Ninja Gaiden 2 is a harder question to answer. The original version of the game was rushed out and it is incredibly janky in places. The higher difficulty levels are also incredibly poorly tuned and a lot of people don't like them because of that. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 fixes some of the problems and has new enemies/bosses and some new weapons but it also removes some content (certain weapons, puzzles and missions) and censors the game. (Blue smoke instead of blood.) It's worth playing if you like the first one but has a lot problems which can sour the experience for you regardless of which version you play.

Ninja Gaiden 3 was pretty bad. Some people swear by the Razor's Edge upgraded version but even then it's a step down, just not as bad as the original version.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jul 20, 2014

TechnoSyndrome
Apr 10, 2009

STARE
Doesn't Sigma 2 also drastically reduce the number of enemies on screen at a time, and remove dismemberment which actually plays into the mechanics of vanilla NG2? I remember seeing comparisons where there's dozens of enemies on screen in NG2 and only five or six in Sigma 2.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

TechnoSyndrome posted:

Doesn't Sigma 2 also drastically reduce the number of enemies on screen at a time, and remove dismemberment which actually plays into the mechanics of vanilla NG2? I remember seeing comparisons where there's dozens of enemies on screen in NG2 and only five or six in Sigma 2.

It reduces the number of enemies onscreen but boosts their HP in response and IIRC makes them slightly more aggressive to compensate.

Dismemberment isn't removed (except in the Asian version where you can't decapitate human enemies.) It's just that it is replaced by blue smoke instead of blood and all dismemberment is removed from cutscenes.

It's a version which is a pure sidestep. It improved some things but makes others worse. No tests of valor, several ranged weapons removed, censorship, the way items work has been changed for the worse, ect, but it also has new weapons and bosses and Master Ninja is less lovely because they toned down the infinite projectile spamming. Some things are even just kind of plus/negatives. You now get weapon upgrades in a different way which means you'll always be able to upgrade when you reach a statue but is less flexible because you can only upgrade once/statue and it also means Essence is now 90% worthless since the only thing you can spend it on are healing items. Puzzles are out entirely which makes some areas entirely boring and pointless but the puzzles also sucked.

If they'd bothered to redesign the game it'd be great but instead they made a bunch of changes and just tore out everything that would have involved actually redesigning the game.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 20, 2014

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



ImpAtom posted:

Ninja Gaiden 2 is a harder question to answer. The original version of the game was rushed out and it is incredibly janky in places. The higher difficulty levels are also incredibly poorly tuned and a lot of people don't like them because of that. Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 fixes some of the problems and has new enemies/bosses and some new weapons but it also removes some content (certain weapons, puzzles and missions) and censors the game. (Blue smoke instead of blood.) It's worth playing if you like the first one but has a lot problems which can sour the experience for you regardless of which version you play.

Sigma 2 is better than vanilla 2. They retuned a lot of the bullshit encounters, though there are still some, and everything else they removed added nothing to the game(like stupid puzzles). Yea there are less enemies in some encounters, but the framerate doesn't dip into single digits either. Blood vs blue mist never bothered me. They also added some sort chapters where you play as another char + some co-op online stuff.

ImpAtom posted:

several ranged weapons removed

But they also made ranged weapons better by letting them autotarget stuff without forcing you to go into first person and manually aim them. That alone is worth every change.

edit: vvv or another example: those rocket launcher assholes that spam their homing rockets at you from offscreen and way at the end of the tunnel. gently caress those levels so hard

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jul 20, 2014

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011

ImpAtom posted:

Ninja Gaiden 2 is a harder question to answer. The original version of the game was rushed out and it is incredibly janky in places. The higher difficulty levels are also incredibly poorly tuned and a lot of people don't like them because of that.

I'll clarify this with an example. In NG2 there are these enemies that look kind of like the Hydralisk from Starcraft. They come in purple and red variants. In the Master Ninja all instances of this enemy get replaced by the stronger red variant. However, this is an enemy that appears pretty early in the game (Venice I believe). In that part of the game their most dangerous attack (a sweep grab) is a one shot even taking into account having all possible +health pickups at that point and full life. It is impossible to survive if you get grabbed. I don't think I can think of a single instance of that being possible in any other well designed action game, that early in the game (DMC and Bayonetta tend to have a buffer that will always leave you with 1HP regardless of what hit you).

Granted the attack can be jumped over, but sometimes there is just no opportunity to do so given the mix of enemies/whatever else is happening on-screen.

NG2 is still a decent game though. Replay feature!!!!!!!!!!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

But they also made ranged weapons better by letting them autotarget stuff without forcing you to go into first person and manually aim them. That alone is worth every change.

You could used ranged weapons in the original without going into first person mode too. The Windmill Shuriken and Incendiary Shurikens were both quite good. Even the bow could be used that way although it was obviously more designed for aiming manually.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012
I dunno, I can't see Sigma 2 being an improvement on the original version, or even a sidestep. It seems like a pretty putrid game; basically like NG2 spliced with some of the terrible poo poo that later got worked into NG3 (like turning enemies into damage sponges with amazingly powerful grabs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011

Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

I dunno, I can't see Sigma 2 being an improvement on the original version, or even a sidestep. It seems like a pretty putrid game; basically like NG2 spliced with some of the terrible poo poo that later got worked into NG3 (like turning enemies into damage sponges with amazingly powerful grabs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

That's crazy. By 2 minutes in you would have been attacked by 50 demon spider ninjas in vanilla (which was probably a little too much but still)

Also powerful grabs were already a problem as seen in my previous post :v:

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

I dunno, I can't see Sigma 2 being an improvement on the original version, or even a sidestep. It seems like a pretty putrid game; basically like NG2 spliced with some of the terrible poo poo that later got worked into NG3 (like turning enemies into damage sponges with amazingly powerful grabs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

Man, that really drives home how badly they neutered the game, yeah.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

I dunno, I can't see Sigma 2 being an improvement on the original version, or even a sidestep. It seems like a pretty putrid game; basically like NG2 spliced with some of the terrible poo poo that later got worked into NG3 (like turning enemies into damage sponges with amazingly powerful grabs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

Rewatching that does remind me how completely dogshit the camera is. Also its funny how neither Itagaki or team ninja have made a good game since they split.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012
I always found that the Ninja Gaiden games were less creative-feeling to play than DMC or something like Bayo. That's not to say they're bad - but they seem very much to emphasise the mastery element, rather than the self-expression in how you defeat the enemies.

ThePhenomenalBaby
May 3, 2011
My problem with them is that there really isn't much reason to use any attack string longer than 4 attacks. With any weapon. In any of the games. Against any enemy or boss. In any difficulty.

The risk/reward is way out of wack for longer strings, so they aren't worth doing in the majority of cases. Now if Ninja Gaiden had Bayonettas Dodge Offset mechanic I could see a point, but it doesn't, so if you're fighting regular enemies do 3 hit or 4 hit attacks strings until an enemy is dead, then chain UTs

FedEx Mercury
Jan 7, 2004

Me bad posting? That's unpossible!
Lipstick Apathy
I never cared for the NG games. They were incredibly frustrating and cheap, and have none of the character and style of the Platinum and DMC games.

RBX
Jan 2, 2011

They're not cheap at all. You just expect DMC gameplay and don't expect the fierceness of the AI. A lot of people make that mistake. Also I'd recommend against the sigma versions unless you already played the originals.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012
Ninja Gaiden Black, at least, isn't "cheap"; you always have all the tools you need to survive. I guess it's very frustrating, but that's just because it's a more challenging game than most other games in the genre.

Oxxidation
Jul 22, 2007

Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

Ninja Gaiden Black, at least, isn't "cheap"; you always have all the tools you need to survive. I guess it's very frustrating, but that's just because it's a more challenging game than most other games in the genre.

Also like 75% of the bosses have so many invincibility frames that they might as well be made of steel for the most of the battle, let's not forget that. Black is fun, but it does not play fair.

darealkooky
Sep 15, 2011

You sayin' I like dubs?!?
Why are people saying that black is better then sigma 1, when sigma removes a bunch of lovely puzzles?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

darealkooky posted:

Why are people saying that black is better then sigma 1, when sigma removes a bunch of lovely puzzles?

Sigma lowers the difficulty, screws up the pacing a little, has additional loading time, has different content in some places, and has some minor control finnickiness that Black doesn't have. It isn't a huge difference but I found Black preferable to play.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying
Oddly, I got bored of Sigma 1 after fighting Alma the first time, but enjoyed all of Sigma 2.

I agree that the most annoying thing about the games is all of the really awesome fancy long combos that were suicide to actually use. Instead in almost any encounter it was best to kill one enemy, then start jump-charging super moves using the stuff they dropped. That always seemed like bad combat design to me.

Sir Ilpalazzo
Sep 4, 2012

Oxxidation posted:

Also like 75% of the bosses have so many invincibility frames that they might as well be made of steel for the most of the battle, let's not forget that. Black is fun, but it does not play fair.

I think you're thinking of super / hyper armor, and it's not really unfair at all; it's an element of the game that the bosses are built around. I would agree if bosses didn't always leave themselves open long enough for you to get good damage in, but that's not the case.

Captain Baal
Oct 23, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
I don't remember a lot about Ninja Gaiden Sigma other than I hated most of the bosses for being giant monsters that were boring to fight. I have Black now so I should probably replay it, but I dunno.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Sir Ilpalazzo posted:

I think you're thinking of super / hyper armor, and it's not really unfair at all; it's an element of the game that the bosses are built around. I would agree if bosses didn't always leave themselves open long enough for you to get good damage in, but that's not the case.

No he means invuln frames. A lot of the time you just couldn't hurt them. Best example of this was the blood lady boss in NG2. Of course they also had super/hyper armor.

Butt Ghost
Nov 23, 2013

This thread has taught me that Ninja Gaiden Black is the only (arguably) good Ninja Gaiden. I only have the vanilla one, and I could never get past that dinosaur thing, like, three levels in. How the gently caress do you play these games?

PaletteSwappedNinja
Jun 3, 2008

One Nation, Under God.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

Rewatching that does remind me how completely dogshit the camera is. Also its funny how neither Itagaki or team ninja have made a good game since they split.

Dead or Alive 5 is allegedly pretty good, as far as DOA games go. Devil's Third... hmm, yeah, I dunno.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Butt Ghost posted:

This thread has taught me that Ninja Gaiden Black is the only (arguably) good Ninja Gaiden. I only have the vanilla one, and I could never get past that dinosaur thing, like, three levels in. How the gently caress do you play these games?

Jump around dodging attacks and blocking while waiting for an opening. Use a short combo and repeat. Maybe use your UT if you are feeling ballsy. Basically play real defensively.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Yeah, it's a super-defensive game. It's basically a modernized high-speed version of old-school NES boss patterns.

Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich
I've only played a bit of NG2 but I don't think is really comparable to DMC, DMC is all about looking cool when fighting while NG is all about getting big combos. If anything, is better to compare it to God of War.

Captain Baal
Oct 23, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
NG is not at all about getting big combos.

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010

I'm looking for a new DMC-style game to play on PC.
I've played the poo poo out of DMC 3 and 4, finished Metal Gear Rising like 4 times (that game's sooo good) and even finished DMC: DMC which was mediocre but the gameplay was enjoyable enough.
Is there anything I missed that could scratch that DMC itch?

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Dark_Tzitzimine
Oct 9, 2012

by R. Guyovich

Beef Waifu posted:

NG is not at all about getting big combos.

That was the impression I got from NG2 and Dragon Sword, it was secondary to killing things though.

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