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Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities
Welp, now that we're done waving our dicks at each other over airline routes, let's get back to the international politics surrounding this. From Foreign Policy: (it's a long article, so I'll just post the first few paragraphs)

quote:


U.S. Says Russia Playing a Double Game on the MH17 Shoot-Down


The United States and other key members of the U.N. Security Council accused Russia of playing a double game on the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: supporting U.N. calls for an independent investigation into the tragedy while simultaneously doing nothing to prevent pro-Russian armed separatists from despoiling the crime scene, looting jewelry and other valuables from the dead, and destroying vital evidence.
Russia joined the Security Council's 14 other members in adopting a resolution condemning the July 17 crash in eastern Ukraine and calling for "a full, thorough and independent international investigation" of what brought down the plane. The resolution, which was drafted by Australia, calls for a cease-fire in the area surrounding the crash site and demands that armed groups in control of the crime scene refrain from compromising the integrity of evidence. It also demands that those responsible for the downing of the airliner be held accountable, but it does not specify who would prosecute the perpetrators or how suspects would be identified, captured, and handed over to authorities.

The vote comes just days after the 15-nation council issued a similar call for an international probe. But pro-Russian separatists have stalled the investigation, delayed the recovery of remains, severely limited access by investigators to the crash site, and tampered with evidence, according to U.S. and Ukrainian officials.
Only over the past 24 hours have the remains of the 298 victims, including 80 children, been transported from the crash site on a refrigerated train to the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv before being flown to the Netherlands. A small team of Dutch investigators, who have been asked by Ukraine to lead the investigation, arrived at the crash site Monday, July 21.
"We welcome Russia's support for today's resolution," Samantha Power, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told the Security Council Monday. "But no resolution would have been necessary had Russia used its leverage with the separatists to provide unfettered access to the crash site in the crucial first days following the air tragedy."

I think the Obama Administration is reacting to this situation very shrewdly. Now is the time for the West to press its advantage in demanding concessions from Russia.

e: They're also communicating in a very thoughtful way. The tone isn't, "Russia needs to open the gates to the Kremlin and bend the knee." It's, "Okay, you guys have really dug yourselves deep in a hole here, haven't you?"

Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jul 22, 2014

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MothraAttack
Apr 28, 2008
The hell? Ukraine says a suicide bomber driving a van of explosives attacked a military checkpoint, per Reuters.

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.
So has it been posted that the separatists turned over control of the bodies? They're all in a train in Donetsk right now with Dutch and OSCE observers. I'm not sure what the holdup is but they're set for departure some time in the AM, to Kharkiv, where the bodies will be transferred to the Dutch and flown to the Netherlands for identification and repatriation. Unfortunately I believe the train is at the same station that was shelled earlier today. The Ukrainian government denied responsibility for any shelling of Donetsk but I believe reports mentioned that pro-Kyiv militias operating in the area could have been behind it, or of course the separatists could be responsible. I hope the train stays safe because holy poo poo that would be grotesque if, after rotting in the sun for four days, the remains are just blown up by violent idiots.

Also the separatists declared a ceasefire in a 10 km radius around the crash site. I am not confident they will be able to adhere to it beyond simply leaving the area. This whole mess has made clear how poorly organized and undisciplined the fighters are, and given how severe the reaction has been I wouldn't be surprised there are multiple fighters who are basically thinking "gently caress this and gently caress my commanders" and just doing whatever they want.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Who is responsible for shooting down the plane? (sorted in descending order)

1) The separatists wgo actually shot down the plane.
2) Russia who supplied the weapon system
3) Russia who didn't tell air travel authorities that the separatists now have means to shoot higher flyung planes down.

Who is not at fault:
The airline, because it followed procedures that served well over myriads of flights over many decades.
The people who are responsible for closing off the airspace and for the flight paths, because up until now experience has shown that the way they do things is very safe.

Why didn't Russia tell that the rebels can now shoot down planes at altitudes higher than the blocked off airspace?

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Majorian posted:

No, but then again, I don't really know how air routes work.

I don't know poo poo, but I think should defend the mass murderers regardless.

az
Dec 2, 2005

^^ Majorian has been toeing the "just asking questions" line since the Maidan proper ended.

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Why didn't Russia tell that the rebels can now shoot down planes at altitudes higher than the blocked off airspace?

Cause they wouldn't want to admit where they got it from.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Also why is Russia supplying a group of people they can't control and they know to be undisciplined and unreliable?

It's like giving a crazed aggressive man a gun who then goes to shoot up a mall.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Reports that the UK Home Office will announce a public inquiry into the death of Alexander Litvinenko. Guess they aren't going down the kiss and make up route.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

az posted:

^^ Majorian has been toeing the "just asking questions" line since the Maidan proper ended.

I've actually been pretty clear that I think Russia is the bad guy in this conflict. But hey, if you want, I could make poo poo up about you too.

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

I don't know poo poo, but I think should defend the mass murderers regardless.

Uh, what the gently caress?

e: Seriously, I just wrote this a couple pages ago:

quote:

This whole tragedy breaks my heart. Whatever moral standing the separatists may have had at one time, they've lost completely. Even though I'm sure most of them would decry this mass murder, nothing they do from this point forward won't be tainted by it. They should lay down their arms and go home.

How the hell am I defending mass murderers?

Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jul 22, 2014

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Majorian posted:

Uh, what the gently caress?

Edit: scratch that.

Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Jul 22, 2014

az
Dec 2, 2005

Majorian posted:

I've actually been pretty clear that I think Russia is the bad guy in this conflict. But hey, if you want, I could make poo poo up about you too.


Try it, I don't have ten pages of posts in this thread that are "just asking questions". You've constantly been at the center of useless slapfights arguing about semantics and strawmen. If you aren't partial to Russia and the rebels you sure as hell keep arguing in their favor a lot.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


Majorian, you saw two posters, who were trying to redirect part of the blame the separatists and Russia are receiving, get attacked. You knew nothing about the topic that was debated and your first reaction to it was not I should inform myself, but those two are probably right and I should fight on their side.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Majorian, you saw two posters, who were trying to redirect part of the blame the separatists and Russia are receiving, get attacked. You knew nothing about the topic that was debated and your first reaction to it was not I should inform myself, but those two are probably right and I should fight on their side.

No, what I saw was someone saying that criticizing Malaysia Air was redirecting the blame from the separatists, which is bullshit when they did it, and it's bullshit now when you're doing it. My criticisms of Malaysia Air were incorrect, I admit. But (incorrectly) saying that the airline dropped the ball isn't redirecting blame from the separatists, and you know it.

az posted:

Try it, I don't have ten pages of posts in this thread that are "just asking questions". You've constantly been at the center of useless slapfights arguing about semantics and strawmen. If you aren't partial to Russia and the rebels you sure as hell keep arguing in their favor a lot.

Except I'm pretty drat clear about my position: Russia is the bad guy here. I'm also very, very much against the neoconservative impulse to blindly "meet strength with strength," and very pro-finding the optimal diplomatic way out of this crisis.

edit for clarity

Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jul 22, 2014

Pyromancer
Apr 29, 2011

This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

3) Russia who didn't tell air travel authorities that the separatists now have means to shoot higher flyung planes down.

Why didn't Russia tell that the rebels can now shoot down planes at altitudes higher than the blocked off airspace?

You misspelled Ukraine there, it is still their airspace and they should know what the separatists have(since they're getting shot by it), not Russia who isn't even officially involved.

Byolante
Mar 23, 2008

by Cyrano4747

Pyromancer posted:

You misspelled Ukraine there, it is still their airspace and they should know what the separatists have(since they're getting shot by it), not Russia who isn't even officially involved.

Why should Ukraine know what Russia is covertly supplying to rebels openly at war with them and obviously not telling them about?

burnishedfume
Mar 8, 2011

You really are a louse...

Majorian posted:

No, what I saw was someone saying that criticizing Malaysia Air was redirecting the blame from the separatists, which is bullshit when they did it, and it's bullshit now when you're doing it. My criticisms of Malaysia Air were incorrect, I admit. But acting like blaming a (mis)perceived error on the airline's part isn't redirecting blame from the separatists, and you know it.

"Look I know I was wrong about the airline being at fault but the airline was at fault for some dudes shooting missiles nobody knew they had at their plane"

With the knowledge you have now that your earlier criticism was incorrect, what specifically did MA do wrong that they should have done differently?

az
Dec 2, 2005

Stop hitting yourself with my missile, plane!

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

DrProsek posted:

"Look I know I was wrong about the airline being at fault but the airline was at fault for some dudes shooting missiles nobody knew they had at their plane"

With the knowledge you have now that your earlier criticism was incorrect, what specifically did MA do wrong that they should have done differently?

From a policy perspective, there's nothing they could have been expected to do without the benefit of hindsight. The misperceived error I mentioned in that post was my own. When I saw both John Oliver and Jon Stewart making jokes about Malaysia Air on their respective shows, I figured (foolishly) that I had a handle on that part of the story. I won't do that again.

Persona non grata
Apr 25, 2010

Byolante posted:

Why should Ukraine know what Russia is covertly supplying to rebels openly at war with them and obviously not telling them about?

The Americans knew they had this capability.

quote:

While stopping short of placing direct blame on Moscow for the disaster, Mr Kerry put forth the most pointed and detailed US accusations so far that Russia provided pro-Moscow insurgents with the sophisticated anti-aircraft systems used to down the aircraft.

He said the US had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the past month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/john-ke...l#ixzz38BIZ6Q8P

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.

https://twitter.com/KeirSimmons/statuses/491488117262917632

Actual good news for once, the bodies are close to being identified and sent home.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007

What's the consensus on origin of that Buk SAM vehicle? Was it really supplied by Russia from either their reserves or equipment captured in Crimea, or is it captured Ukrainian equipment?

Deformed Church
May 12, 2012

5'5", IQ 81


Swan Oat posted:

Actual good news for once, the bodies are close to being identified and sent home.

Is that all the bodies? I've not seen any updates in a while, but I'm pretty sure that last I heard, they'd only recovered maybe two thirds of them.

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.
It's about 280 bodies with parts for more. Obviously they might recover more corpses or corpse parts but according to Ukrainian sources and Dutch investigators the train is carrying most of the remains from the flight. There was a major effort yesterday morning to get as many bodies as possible recovered.

Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012


And France is now delivering a warship to Russia. A country which robbed territory of another nation and is waging an unprovoked proxy war which it also started. gently caress France, gently caress Germany, gently caress most of the EU.

jonnypeh
Nov 5, 2006

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

And France is now delivering a war ship to Russia. A country which robbed territory of another nation and is waging an unprovoked proxy war which it also started. gently caress France, gently caress Germany, gently caress most of the EU.

Don't mind if they do. So long as my own country acquires good anti-ship missiles. Would need these anyway because Russia's Baltic sea fleet still has some ships afloat.

fatherboxx
Mar 25, 2013

Brown Moses posted:

Reports that the UK Home Office will announce a public inquiry into the death of Alexander Litvinenko. Guess they aren't going down the kiss and make up route.

About as timely as Russia putting "sanctions" on the former Guantanamo and Abu-Ghraib personnel.

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

And France is now delivering a warship to Russia. A country which robbed territory of another nation and is waging an unprovoked proxy war which it also started. gently caress France, gently caress Germany, gently caress most of the EU.

Hollande may be considering canceling the sale of the second Mistral

Scapegoat
Sep 18, 2004

It makes sense, you can't really be giving weapons to a country who is supplying weapons to a bunch of thugs who shoot down random airplanes.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007

By then Russian engineers would have reverse engineered the first Mistral, so in 10 years they'll have their own copies.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

One would think he would have moved past "considering canceling the sale" at this point, and onto "canceling it right the gently caress now." Such a sale would have to be politically disastrous back home - the perfect way to unite the pro-EU crowd and the "Know-Nothing" types on the far right against him.

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007

Hollande is incredibly unpopular. He will simply continue to do the wrong things.

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.
There have been consistent demonstrations in Calais where the Russian sailors are being trained for the first Mistral, but it's organized by leftists. Also I believe Le Pen and her FN party have been broadly supportive of Putin, since you know the right wing authoritarians gotta support one another. Of course the MH17 shootdown is a huge game changer but prior to last Thursday you weren't exactly going to peel off racist right wing French people by acting belligerent about Putin.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Swan Oat posted:

There have been consistent demonstrations in Calais where the Russian sailors are being trained for the first Mistral, but it's organized by leftists. Also I believe Le Pen and her FN party have been broadly supportive of Putin, since you know the right wing authoritarians gotta support one another. Of course the MH17 shootdown is a huge game changer but prior to last Thursday you weren't exactly going to peel off racist right wing French people by acting belligerent about Putin.

Yeah, well, like you say, MH17 is a game changer. Unless the Le Pen wing also takes up the "It was full of corpses!" conspiracy theory, which I wouldn't put past them.

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.
Well yeah but what I was getting at is that there isn't some previously-existing alliance between idiot xenophobes anti-righters because the FN have been big Putin fans. Like it is difficult for me to imagine the FN suddenly deciding oh yeah Putin and his authoritarian nationalism is bad, support the PS in their effort to stop the sale of the second Mistral. UMP might grow a pair about it but I'd imagine the out and out fascist party will just ignore it or poop out conspiracy theories. This applies broadly across Europe in my opinion.

Persona non grata
Apr 25, 2010

Swan Oat posted:

There have been consistent demonstrations in Calais where the Russian sailors are being trained for the first Mistral, but it's organized by leftists.

Do you know if a particular party is organizing them? The far left communists have generally held an anti-Kiev line. It'd be interesting if there was a split.

Majorian
Jul 1, 2009

Inverted Offensive Battle: Acupuncture Attacks Convert To 3D Penetration Tactics Taking Advantage of Deep Battle Opportunities

Swan Oat posted:

Well yeah but what I was getting at is that there isn't some previously-existing alliance between idiot xenophobes anti-righters because the FN have been big Putin fans. Like it is difficult for me to imagine the FN suddenly deciding oh yeah Putin and his authoritarian nationalism is bad, support the PS in their effort to stop the sale of the second Mistral. UMP might grow a pair about it but I'd imagine the out and out fascist party will just ignore it or poop out conspiracy theories. This applies broadly across Europe in my opinion.

Fair enough. I guess that explains why Hollande is more cautious in his language about the ship sale.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007

Majorian posted:

Yeah, well, like you say, MH17 is a game changer. Unless the Le Pen wing also takes up the "It was full of corpses!" conspiracy theory, which I wouldn't put past them.

I've seen polish right-wingers compare shooting that plane to sinking Lusitania, of course others are convinced it was a deliberate execution ordered by Putin (like that plane crash from 2010 :freep:). It's a weird time to be right-winger in Poland now, you have to balance hating gays, Jews, USA, EU as a communist plot, EU as a fascist plot, Russia, OUN/UPA and who knows who else..

Swan Oat
Oct 9, 2012

I was selected for my skill.
^^^ do Polish far-righters feel much about Silesian autonomy?

Persona non grata posted:

Do you know if a particular party is organizing them? The far left communists have generally held an anti-Kiev line. It'd be interesting if there was a split.

Judging from the facebook page I looked at a while ago it was just generic leftists, not necessarily from a party or organization on the left. My impression is that it was just organized from a group of people in Paris as opposed to an actual organization. Important caveat: I am not French and was basically relying on gooogle translate for posts; I don't want to falsely give the expert I am an expert on the French left.

you feelin fucky
May 23, 2009
Italian news has an interview up with commander of the first rebels on the scene. He was told a military transport plane had been shot down and was sent to deal with those who may have jumped out by parachute. Instead he found a 5 year old girl who had just made a mud angel.

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alex314
Nov 22, 2007

Swan Oat posted:

^^^ do Polish far-righters feel much about Silesian autonomy?
They assume it's German plot to partition Poland. Kaczynski called them "Hidden Germans" or something as colorful. Of course some of far-righters are straight up Neo-Nazis, so I guess they'd accept it. It's really hard to keep track of beliefs of all those fractured and fighting groups. The only thing I'm certain about them is that they all hate Antifa.

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