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Pretty excited about the Quick Look. Rorie is also my favorite of the Giant Bomb guys, so I'm happy he's on board.
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Jul 22, 2014 19:37
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Sorry to continue this derail discussion but I can't really let this pass without comment - 'In evidence of fiction not having racist subtexts I cite noted non-racist author H.P. Lovecraft' The whole point of that post was that authors being terrible people doesn't necessarily turn their works into terrible works, Lovecraft is another example of this, not an example of a non-racist author. Mein Kampf would be a counterexample, a terrible book by a terrible person.
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Jul 22, 2014 19:58
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pun pundit posted:The whole point of that post was that authors being terrible people doesn't necessarily turn their works into terrible works, Lovecraft is another example of this, not an example of a non-racist author. Mein Kampf would be a counterexample, a terrible book by a terrible person. 
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Jul 22, 2014 20:07
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Sorry to continue this derail discussion but I can't really let this pass without comment - 'In evidence of fiction not having racist subtexts I cite noted non-racist author H.P. Lovecraft' No I specifically cite Lovecraft as a racist author. Him being a racist doesn't magically turn his stories bad though.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:07
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The Shadow over Innsmouth was secretly a parable about the Schengen Area being expanded to include Greece.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:10
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Shadow over Innsmouth is a classic "fear of the other" racist piece, but with a weird "maybe it's okay to be like those people" ending. Mountains of Madness is about a white english man learning that those horrible other things that aren't white english men are just like us anyway and that's okay. At least you can read em that way. You can also read them as awesome pieces of horror fiction with a weird New England architecture fetish.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:12
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DatonKallandor posted:No I specifically cite Lovecraft as a racist author. Him being a racist doesn't magically turn his stories bad though. It also doesn't really matter, in the end. All the points about racial prejudices informing fantasy as we know it still hold true and Intelligence penalties often serve as a way of projecting these real world ideologies onto whoever the stand-in for minorities happens to be at the time. Basically Fantasy is almost always more of a pulp genre and isn't very well suited to handling questions like how to ethically respond to actual biological differences between different species. They should really leave it to sci-fi, because sci-fi tends to deliberately ask the question rather than just subconsciously make an inferior race that happens to resemble who they look down on.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:13
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Lovecraft wasn't really any more racist than was average for his time he just missed the memo that they were supposed to try and be more subtle about it.
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Jul 22, 2014 20:24
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DatonKallandor posted:No I specifically cite Lovecraft as a racist author. Him being a racist doesn't magically turn his stories bad though. How long will the public beta usually take to complete? A few hours? I'm still curious about whether the area it takes place in will be simply amputated from the game and presented as-is, or changed significantly to scrub it of its narrative. I guess what I'm wondering is the extent to which your character's status as whatever they are and the game's core plot are ever-present in side content in the game. So by example, were we to take a Chapter 2 sidequest in BG2 and turn it into a public beta, you could throw the Umar Hills more or less as-is, because the Child of Bhaal narrative and Imoen's confinement don't come up (in my recollection). By contrast you'd need to do some trimming in presenting any of the city districts, especially with regard to conversations with random people, but it could be done. And Windspear Hills would need to change significantly, given Tazok and Firkraag.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:10
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Though I suppose in most places you could just make Imoen part of the party in the hypothetical beta and no one would be the wiser w/r/t the first twist of the game
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Jul 22, 2014 21:13
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I'm such an idiot for not backing this game. It looks very promising so far, even more so than Wasteland 2. Can't wait to see some proper gameplay videos.cock hero flux posted:Lovecraft wasn't really any more racist than was average for his time he just missed the memo that they were supposed to try and be more subtle about it. Sorry for continuing the derail, but wasn't Lovecraft also an Anglophile who for some reason hated people of Dutch and German origin too? Haven't read his stuff in a long time but I seem to remember him portraying them in a rather unflattering manner.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:24
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Yes, and also an avowed monarchist in his early days and a mix of a Fabian socialist and a fascist in his latter days (I think in "The Colour[sic] out of Space" the superintelligent fungus society with non-euclidean buildings are described as organizing themselves along these lines).
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Jul 22, 2014 21:30
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DatonKallandor posted:No I specifically cite Lovecraft as a racist author. Him being a racist doesn't magically turn his stories bad though. He wrote a story about a man literally dying of horror upon finding he was descended from an African (monkey-woman). Anyways my point being the people who created all these beloved nerd tropes were racist, they're still presented in mostly racist manners to this day and the people who defend them, when pushed, are often revealed to be racist (hi RPG Codex!). Basically, this: Captain Oblivious posted:It also doesn't really matter, in the end. All the points about racial prejudices informing fantasy as we know it still hold true and Intelligence penalties often serve as a way of projecting these real world ideologies onto whoever the stand-in for minorities happens to be at the time.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:35
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I guess xaurips should be made equally intelligent with the other races we encounter then, as they're clearly stand-ins for Melanesian tribes, and they have a heck of a resemblance to some of Lovecraft's cults as well!
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Jul 22, 2014 22:07
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pun pundit posted:Mein Kampf would be a counterexample, a terrible book by a terrible person. Rude.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:10
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Otto Skorzeny posted:I guess xaurips should be made equally intelligent with the other races we encounter then, as they're clearly stand-ins for Melanesian tribes, and they have a heck of a resemblance to some of Lovecraft's cults as well! Just make humans the only race with -int, problem solved.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:10
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Otto Skorzeny posted:I guess xaurips should be made equally intelligent with the other races we encounter then, as they're clearly stand-ins for Melanesian tribes, and they have a heck of a resemblance to some of Lovecraft's cults as well! You and your cisgendered white privilege wouldn't understand. WHen I finish my fantasy book, my white elvish race is going to represent black people. 
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Jul 22, 2014 22:11
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Drifter posted:WHen I finish my fantasy book, my white elvish race is going to represent black people. No coincidence that Elvis is named for Elves.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:24
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rope kid posted:Many of the decisions on PoE are driven by nostalgia, including but not limited to the game being class-based, having six attributes, a six character party, and RTwP combat. What would you have otherwise done with the party size and combat style?
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Jul 22, 2014 22:54
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I think 4-5 characters is much more manageable for RTwP. If we're just speaking about "Hey what kind of game would you make?" I'd develop something turn-based. E: Even if it were some sort of Darklands spiritual successor, I'd still go with turn-based.
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Jul 22, 2014 23:24
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I'm pretty offended by the clear pro-spider propaganda that the Vrithack represent myself.
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Jul 22, 2014 23:37
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Otto Skorzeny posted:I guess xaurips should be made equally intelligent with the other races we encounter then, as they're clearly stand-ins for Melanesian tribes, and they have a heck of a resemblance to some of Lovecraft's cults as well!  Your username is not really helping you here. But for all we know they are as intelligent and just haven't developed along the same agricultural->pre-industrial->Renaissance lines we're expecting? Xaurips could plausibly be directly replaced with Human cults that worship Dragons and you'd lose some of the uniqueness and Kobold references, but it'd still work.
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Jul 22, 2014 23:41
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A Steampunk Gent posted:He wrote a story about a man literally dying of horror upon finding he was descended from an African (monkey-woman). Anyways my point being the people who created all these beloved nerd tropes were racist, they're still presented in mostly racist manners to this day and the people who defend them, when pushed, are often revealed to be racist (hi RPG Codex!). Basically, this: Note that the "shocking end twist" being "his father/mother/grandfather was negro!" was an often used trope of many authors during that time. He didn't invent it. He used it yeah, but he was a Xenophobe and it shows much less and in fewer stories than it could considering just how much he was scared of anything foreign (it's probably more accurate to call him xenophobic than racist - he was afraid of everyone who wasn't white, English, salt of the earth gentlemen). And again one fantasy setting being based on racism (and even that's debatable) doesn't automatically invalidate all fantasy. That's a ridiculous claim, especially when you use it to twist specific details that aren't racist into something else so it becomes racist and then claim that it is racist. On a more topical note, I think everyone is waiting for gently caress You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience. A true modern Darklands with well designed mechanics and a good UI would be incredible. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 23:49
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rope kid posted:I think 4-5 characters is much more manageable for RTwP. If we're just speaking about "Hey what kind of game would you make?" I'd develop something turn-based. Man, now I really want to play gently caress You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience.
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Jul 22, 2014 23:55
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DatonKallandor posted:And again one fantasy setting being based on racism (and even that's debatable) doesn't automatically invalidate all fantasy. That's a ridiculous claim, especially when you use it to twist specific details that aren't racist into something else so it becomes racist and then claim that it is racist. Nobody claimed all fantasy is invalidated. That's bizarre hyperbole. They claimed that they didn't like to see a particular thing in Fantasy RPGs (racial bonuses/penalties to mental attributes, especially intelligence, because that was the one at stake in real-world debates) because it is one of the ways fantasy echoes real-world actually still occurring racism. And while it reminds people of actual real-world racism, I don't think anyone claimed you are automatically a racist if you give Orcs an intelligence penalty in an RPG. Just that they preferred it not to be done and were happy that this fantasy game was not doing it. For someone complaining about twisting specific details, you're certainly doing a lot of it yourself.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:08
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Everything is racist.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:09
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DatonKallandor posted:Note that the "shocking end twist" being "his father/mother/grandfather was negro!" was an often used trope of many authors during that time. He didn't invent it. He used it yeah, but he was a Xenophobe and it shows much less and in fewer stories than it could considering just how much he was scared of anything foreign (it's probably more accurate to call him xenophobic than racist - he was afraid of everyone who wasn't white, English, salt of the earth gentlemen). I started reading Robert Chambers's The King in Yellow the other day, and the first paragraph has two sentences practically side by side, with the first saying that all negroes were removed to their own independent state, all jews excluded "as a measure of self-preservation," and the government "solved the Indian problem" and the next saying "bigotry and intolerance were laid in their graves." I just had to laugh.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:12
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:[inexplicably large picture of nazi war criminal and pro-tier fencer redacted] No, somebody (rope kid?) said they were characteristically dumb a few pages back when someone pointed out that one of their hunting shacks featured in a screenshot was in a position that would get wiped out by waves. Which is the norm for kobolds/kites/etc in old RPGs. Although I guess people thinking primitive cultures are stupid rather than merely ignorant (cf. that Ancient Aliens guy with the wacky hair that always claims the ancient Egyptians were too dumb to build the pyramids) is a common enough mistake that the devs could make it themselves, I guess.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:21
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Glad to see that I can still count on this thread to have generally 1 out of 10 posts relevant to the game and its development.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:23
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What real world raced do Kobolds represent again?
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Jul 23, 2014 00:25
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The Sharmat posted:What real world raced do Kobolds represent again? The Poor.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:38
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GreatGreen posted:The Poor. I knew this game was right-wing propaganda. What else has pillars? Banks. When I finish my fantasy deconstruction book the orange-skinned Bar'ghe interstellar migratory aliens, who are clones of the original, but now extinct original Bar'ghe, currently cohabiting the planet with the main species are going to represent both the Native American Indians and the Palestinians. It's a work in progress. 
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Jul 23, 2014 00:49
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DatonKallandor posted:Note that the "shocking end twist" being "his father/mother/grandfather was negro!" was an often used trope of many authors during that time. He didn't invent it. He used it yeah, but he was a Xenophobe and it shows much less and in fewer stories than it could considering just how much he was scared of anything foreign (it's probably more accurate to call him xenophobic than racist - he was afraid of everyone who wasn't white, English, salt of the earth gentlemen). Just reading your posts it seems like it's super important to you that orks are genetically retarded compared to the enlightened elven ubermensch. Like seriously guy you might want to stop and think about the hill you're dying on here.
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Jul 23, 2014 00:57
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3.5e Races of the Dragon style kobolds are violent communists and, entirely coincidentally, are "ftw".
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Jul 23, 2014 01:05
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DatonKallandor posted:
I could have sworn there was a kickstarter for a low fantasy game like darklands [e] Here it is. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649838104/serpent-in-the-staglands
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Jul 23, 2014 01:07
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rope kid posted:I think 4-5 characters is much more manageable for RTwP. If we're just speaking about "Hey what kind of game would you make?" I'd develop something turn-based. If you keep mentioning the possibility of a Darklands spiritual successor I'm going to friggin scream.
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Jul 23, 2014 01:11
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"dark"lands???
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Jul 23, 2014 01:19
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DrManiac posted:I could have sworn there was a kickstarter for a low fantasy game like darklands That one is pixel art, RTwP and the UI doesn't look very good (it looks very hampered by them going for low-res and old-skool).
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Jul 23, 2014 01:24
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epitasis posted:"dark"lands??? SoggyBobcat posted:Everything is racist.
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Jul 23, 2014 01:24
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DatonKallandor posted:That one is pixel art, RTwP and the UI doesn't look very good (it looks very hampered by them going for low-res and old-skool). I think it looks amazing . Backed it on KS and contributed to the Codex Fundraiser to get some Penis/Sperm Monsters into the game.
Sensuki fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 01:32
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