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CuwiKhons posted:I don't think anybody designs character outfits specifically with cosplay in mind. If somebody really wants to cosplay as a character, no amount of complicated costuming is going to stop them. Cameron Stewart said that he designed Batgirl's new outfit with cosplayers in mind.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:21
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I don't think cosplaying was the sole reason Harley's design has changed, but it's definitely been a factor. Loads of grognards love to dress as the Joker so it only makes sense to give their trashy girlfriends something they can cobble together out of spare parts too instead of a difficult-to-pattern spandex onesie and an unflattering headpiece that hides their hair. Or for girls who just want to dress up a little trashy in general, not that there's anything wrong with that. Either way the amount of girls dressing as her has definitely gone up a lot since her design became something closer to what you'd actually see in some sleazy nightclub or Halloween party.
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Jul 24, 2014 01:25
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Discendo Vox posted:Wasn't Quinn a product of Bruce "Pin-up girls are all I know" Timm? Her character was never all that deep- which is not to say that I approve of how she was handled in AC or AO. Her character was never that deep, no. But she certainly earned a psychology degree (before later writers decided to start saying that she slept her way to that degree, an idea I wish I could set them on fire for) and she was genuinely trying to help Joker before he manipulated her and dragged her down with him. Games and comics making Harley stupid feels a little bit too much like them going "Haha, look at this dumbass, in love with somebody who abuses her, what kind of idiot stays in an abusive relationship? What a moron." Maybe they aren't doing it consciously but it still pisses me off. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Cameron Stewart said that he designed Batgirl's new outfit with cosplayers in mind. Huh. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I like Batgirl's new outfit a lot, but I liked it partially because it was a move away from ridiculous impractical outfits that were intended more to be sexy than functional. I still like it for that, but now I'm wondering how much of that move was just about making it easier to cosplay CuwiKhons fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 01:31
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Well, when they say they're making the outfit easily cosplayable, they're also kind of saying "We're making an outfit that is actually approximate to something an actual human being might wear", which is a big step up for lady superhero outfits. They're really the same thing when you get down to it.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:36
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The thing with Harley Quinn is that she was interesting and pitiable when she was an intelligent woman manipulated by a sociopath and trapped in an abusive relationship that everyone, including the writers, really wished she would get out of and did their best to portray at least somewhat sympathetically. It gets to be a problem when they go "ha ha, no, she's just dumb and slutty and deserves what she gets." That's just creepy and not in a good way.
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Jul 24, 2014 02:41
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mind the walrus posted:I don't think cosplaying was the sole reason Harley's design has changed, but it's definitely been a factor. Loads of grognards love to dress as the Joker so it only makes sense to give their trashy girlfriends something they can cobble together out of spare parts too instead of a difficult-to-pattern spandex onesie and an unflattering headpiece that hides their hair. Or for girls who just want to dress up a little trashy in general, not that there's anything wrong with that. Either way the amount of girls dressing as her has definitely gone up a lot since her design became something closer to what you'd actually see in some sleazy nightclub or Halloween party. 
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Jul 24, 2014 03:06
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 He's got a Heath Ledger impression and is just dying to show you.
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Jul 24, 2014 03:11
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Has there ever been serious out comic or whatever that's actually portrayed Harriet as being smarter than the Joker? Not 'more effective' but more intelligent as a balance to Joker's full-bore crazy and thus much more of an equal partner integral to his schemes+
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Jul 24, 2014 03:46
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BreakAtmo posted:Has there ever been serious out comic or whatever that's actually portrayed Harriet as being smarter than the Joker? Not 'more effective' but more intelligent as a balance to Joker's full-bore crazy and thus much more of an equal partner integral to his schemes+ Not really. The modern comics have kind of flirted with that by making her effectively just Female Joker (including falling in acid which bleaches his skin white and makes her crazy) but not really as an equal part.
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Jul 24, 2014 03:57
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There have been a few comics and at least one episode in the animated series where Harley successfully captured and would have killed Batman and Joker stopped her because he can't stand the idea of somebody else being the one to kill Bats. Batman even mocked Joker by saying that Harley came closer to killing Batman than he ever had. The thing is that Harley plays dumb precisely because Joker isn't interested in an equal partner. I would argue that Harley probably is smarter than Joker but has learned not to express this and plays dumb muscle because it makes him happier.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:03
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ImpAtom posted:Not really. The modern comics have kind of flirted with that by making her effectively just Female Joker (including falling in acid which bleaches his skin white and makes her crazy) but not really as an equal part. She's a genius on the N52, the recently released Secret Origins issue focused on her tells that she passed school with flying colors and her psychology degree was made enterely on scholarships she gained. Looking for a challenge she used ANY means at her disposal to get into Arkham as a 'patient', Joker saw right through her charade and started to manipulate her. She admits that being a Ditz was just an act because Joker liked it. ANYWAYS, DC Collectibles just revealed Arkham Knight Red Hood's figure, giving us a better look to Jason:  Someone mentioned earlier how the Arkham designs are cosplayer friendly and is noticeable with Jason. He went from a tactical armor (personally my favorite superhero suit ever) to a biker outfit with guns and a red bat painted on the shirt. Looks cool but kind of hard to take seriously (unless Jason is suicidal, that is), and the hood-helmet combo is kind of goofy 
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Jul 24, 2014 04:18
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MinibarMatchman posted:why oh why have they gone in this suicidegirls direction with harley quinn, she looks worse with every game. I assumed that it was the same reason they made copperhead a woman. Titties.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:22
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ImpAtom posted:The thing with Harley Quinn is that she was interesting and pitiable when she was an intelligent woman manipulated by a sociopath and trapped in an abusive relationship that everyone, including the writers, really wished she would get out of and did their best to portray at least somewhat sympathetically. A fundamental problem of Quinn's character is that she isn't allowed to change or escape the Joker. This relegates her to the status of fridge/idiot/dupe/spycho, depending on the author. Her character is defined solely in terms of someone else, so development, and depth, aren't possible.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:29
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Discendo Vox posted:A fundamental problem of Quinn's character is that she isn't allowed to change or escape the Joker. This relegates her to the status of fridge/idiot/dupe/spycho, depending on the author. Her character is defined solely in terms of someone else, so development, and depth, aren't possible. I don't really agree with that. Harley has received development or actually escaped the Joker. It is just that comic writers are utterly terrified of breaking the status quo in any way so any development she has gets dialed back. This isn't exclusive to Harley, she just happens to be one of the characters whose status quo really sucks long term.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:35
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That's a fundamental problem with superhero comics in general though, especially at DC. It's honestly a work of art how they can play musical chairs with the same characters and pass it off as radically different. A terrifying, septic work of art that shouldn't be supported with money, but a work of art nonetheless.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:36
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Has there really ever been a long-running series that hasn't been afraid to permanently kill off and/or change the status quo of major characters, be it hero or villain? I know Marvel and DC like to talk big games, but they're always bringing back old major characters within a few years or so.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:40
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kalonZombie posted:Has there really ever been a long-running series that hasn't been afraid to permanently kill off and/or change the status quo of major characters, be it hero or villain? I know Marvel and DC like to talk big games, but they're always bringing back old major characters within a few years or so. How long is long-running? There are soap operas which have run for years and while they do have their miraculous resurrections and bullshit retcons they're also kind of obligated to change after so many years on the air. I mean Guiding Light had over 15,000 episodes over the course of over 50 years. (Longer if you count its time as a radio drama.) If you mean comic-wise, there are a bunch of indie comic that do it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 04:43
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Technically the longest-running at Marvel or DC would probably be Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, who took over as the second Flash and Green Lantern, although there was multiverse theory even then and I'm not going full  right now, but from what I remember the original Flash and Green Lantern were sporadic in their appearances from the 50s til the 70s and were never the "main" versions of the characters again.The longest "single universe" passing of the mantle would probably be Wally West as the Flash, although that got dialed back by Geoff Johns for no real reason at all. Captain Marvel at Marvel qualifies too but there were never any major Captain Marvels afterwards and they were infrequent and unpopular in their appearances before the original showed up again. Now the old Ms. Marvel is Captain Marvel and that is looking to stick since Marvel clearly wants her to be one of their big-name Avengers heroes, but that happened long after the original came back. There are probably others (Does Golden Age to Silver Age Wonder Woman count?), namely Silver Age versions of Golden Age characters, but those are the ones that jump to my memory.
mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 04:45
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kalonZombie posted:Has there really ever been a long-running series that hasn't been afraid to permanently kill off and/or change the status quo of major characters, be it hero or villain? I know Marvel and DC like to talk big games, but they're always bringing back old major characters within a few years or so. Killing doesn't often stick, but the various Robins have gone through some significant changes (to pick an obvious example).
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Jul 24, 2014 04:46
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ImpAtom posted:How long is long-running? There are soap operas which have run for years and while they do have their miraculous resurrections and bullshit retcons they're also kind of obligated to change after so many years on the air. I mean Guiding Light had over 15,000 episodes over the course of over 50 years. (Longer if you count its time as a radio drama.) I just meant comics-wise, and I guess a comic that's been going on at least 10 years. It seems like if a villain is dead for at least 2 years anymore, they'll find some convoluted way to come back. Doctor Spaceman posted:Killing doesn't often stick, but the various Robins have gone through some significant changes (to pick an obvious example). Oh yeah, I guess Nightwing has been around for a while, hasn't he?
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Jul 24, 2014 04:47
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kalonZombie posted:I just meant comics-wise, and I guess a comic that's been going on at least 10 years. It seems like if a villain is dead for at least 2 years anymore, they'll find some convoluted way to come back. At this point it really depends on the comic. The Flash, for example, had a really good linage where Barry took over from Jay and then Wally took over for Barry and they kept advancing and moving forward. Then Geoff Johns got upset the guy he was reading about wasn't the guy he read as a kid so Barry is back. On the other hand, Elongated Man and his wife (for good or ill) basically get stuck with any plot that gets heaped on them because they're not grade-A characters, so once they got killed off (partially due to one of the worst comics ever), it kinda stuck. They're not around in the Nu52 in any form either so for the moment it's still sticking despite it being quite a few years old at this point.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:50
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kalonZombie posted:Oh yeah, I guess Nightwing has been around for a while, hasn't he? Dick Grayson went from Robin to Nightwing (to Batman!) and Jason Todd went from Robin to dead to Red Hood. The other 3 have had smaller changes too.
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Jul 24, 2014 04:52
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mind the walrus posted:That's a fundamental problem with superhero comics in general though, especially at DC. It's honestly a work of art how they can play musical chairs with the same characters and pass it off as radically different. A terrifying, septic work of art that shouldn't be supported with money, but a work of art nonetheless. Six years - six years - Riddler spent as a reformed detective, what I felt was a fascinating look at coping with mental illness, the way society handles rehabilitation, and dealing with old friends who you KNOW are bad for you but god nobody else will talk to you so what do you do? But somebody had a loving boner for Eddie as a supervillain so they ripped that to shreds and had him go back to being a criminal. Harley's also tried her hand at being reformed but nobody ever has the guts to let that poo poo stick. I hate comic books 
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Jul 24, 2014 05:01
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ImpAtom posted:I don't really agree with that. Harley has received development or actually escaped the Joker. It is just that comic writers are utterly terrified of breaking the status quo in any way so any development she has gets dialed back. I understand, that's exactly my point: Harley Quinn's status quo is shallow, abusive, exploitative and problematic in ways that other characters aren't. CuwiKhons posted:Six years - six years - Riddler spent as a reformed detective, what I felt was a fascinating look at coping with mental illness, the way society handles rehabilitation, and dealing with old friends who you KNOW are bad for you but god nobody else will talk to you so what do you do? But somebody had a loving boner for Eddie as a supervillain so they ripped that to shreds and had him go back to being a criminal. Harley's also tried her hand at being reformed but nobody ever has the guts to let that poo poo stick. It's harder to even do anything with Quinn because she was written as an accessory for Joker- her roles and behaviors are defined by her status as abuse victim and dupe. A developed or independent Harley Quinn is hard to parse as the same person because her personality, in both senses of the word, revolves around Mistah J. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 05:06
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Discendo Vox posted:It's harder to even do anything with Quinn because she was written as an accessory for Joker- her roles and behaviors are defined by her status as abuse victim and dupe. A developed or independent Harley Quinn is hard to parse as the same person because her personality, in both senses of the word, revolves around Mistah J. This is exactly why I found her early 00s series so drat hard to read. I went to it for the cheesecake art because I was a pathetic teenage boy, but couldn't stay even though goddammit I tried. CuwiKhons posted:Six years - six years - Riddler spent as a reformed detective, what I felt was a fascinating look at coping with mental illness, the way society handles rehabilitation, and dealing with old friends who you KNOW are bad for you but god nobody else will talk to you so what do you do? But somebody had a loving boner for Eddie as a supervillain so they ripped that to shreds and had him go back to being a criminal. Harley's also tried her hand at being reformed but nobody ever has the guts to let that poo poo stick. Preaching to the choir boss. I love the poo poo out of some superheroes but there's good reason I don't pay Marvel or DC a goddamn dime for their funnybooks and haven't since like 2007.
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Jul 24, 2014 05:11
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That same time period of comics also saw them ditch Harvey Dent's progress. For a few years they actually had a healed harvey dent taking part in daily gotham life, pushing the character forward. And then one writer comes along and does a quick issue or two about Harvey grabbing some acid and re-scarring his face, because COMICS. It is hard to get invested in a character's progress when I know that there's a 90% chance it will be erased the second a new writer takes over the property.
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Jul 24, 2014 05:26
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CuwiKhons posted:I can't stand what they've been doing to Harley though, in the games or in the comics these days. I don't know how loudly I have to scream "HARLEY ISN'T SUPPOSED TO ACTUALLY BE STUPID, SHE JUST FAKES IT" before somebody gets the point. Harley reanimates Ra's al Ghul's robots from hundreds of years ago to beat up Batman in Arkham City, though. And she's the one that overrides security in Arkham Asylum. Even the games acknowledge she's not dumb. CuwiKhons posted:Her character was never that deep, no. But she certainly earned a psychology degree (before later writers decided to start saying that she slept her way to that degree, an idea I wish I could set them on fire for) That was in the original Mad Love comic, you know? That particular scene just never made its way to the episode. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 08:21
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:Harley reanimates Ra's al Ghul's robots from hundreds of years ago to beat up Batman in Arkham City, though. And she's the one that overrides security in Arkham Asylum. Even the games acknowledge she's not dumb. But the game goes out of it's way to call her dumb. Batman says, in both Asylum and City, "Harley thinks she has me trapped here. She never was very bright  ". Thugs talk about how loving stupid she is and how much they don't want to work for her if Joker croaks, and yeah, it's not like I think those thugs are the sharpest knives in the drawer themselves but it's still something that people are constantly reinforcing. And in both games she also reveals vital information by just by talking too much, which is definitely supposed to be an indication that she's an idiot. Meanwhile the game doesn't draw attention to the fact that she was the one who gave Joker control of the Asylum or that she fixed up those robots (in fact I completely forgot she did that). They are clever things, but the game really glosses over them.quote:That was in the original Mad Love comic, you know? That particular scene just never made its way to the episode. Then they were smart to have left it out and I don't think that when she was later included in non-DCAU comics that her sleeping with her profs was the version they went with (it's also dumb because really? You think you can sleep your way to a medical degree?). They did later, but I'm pretty sure she was supposed to have legit earned that degree. She was a bit of a glory seeker - she wanted to work with Joker because she thought she could get famous off of him, but that's not the same as being stupid.
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Jul 24, 2014 11:06
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The Injustice comic has done pretty good by Harley (Injustice is actually a shockingly good comic, with some awkward early issues).    
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Jul 24, 2014 11:26
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Veotax posted:The Injustice comic has done pretty good by Harley (Injustice is actually a shockingly good comic, with some awkward early issues). This is from the awkward early issues right?
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Jul 24, 2014 11:42
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That is the worst loving outfit.
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Jul 24, 2014 11:45
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CuwiKhons posted:That is the worst loving outfit. When female characters speak and act even a little bit more like human beings, the absurd sexism of their costumes is thrown into sharper relief. For the love of God, both of you, pants, shirts, wear them. (I gotta admit it strains credulity that the government wouldn't be all over that kid immediately. The daughter of the Joker? Extremely unlikely to be normal/healthy).
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Jul 24, 2014 13:19
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Discendo Vox posted:When female characters speak and act even a little bit more like human beings, the absurd sexism of their costumes is thrown into sharper relief. For the love of God, both of you, pants, shirts, wear them. (I gotta admit it strains credulity that the government wouldn't be all over that kid immediately. The daughter of the Joker? Extremely unlikely to be normal/healthy). Why the hell would Joker even be able to have a kid? He's not really a normal human anymore since falling into acid and is immune to several toxins that would kill a normal dude in addition to his healing factor from constantly losing teeth and having his bones shattered by Batman every other month. Of course the government would be all over that kid for the next suicide squad.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:00
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Why is everyone talking about Joker falling into acid like that actually happened? Even in the Killing Joke, he basically admitted to it being that's how he remembered it happening THAT DAY and that how he remembers becoming the Joker changes on a constant basis. Joker's not really the best source to trust about his past. Though yeah, I find the fact that the government is not all over Joker's kid like flies on poo poo extremely odd. Maybe they are in secret, but hope that by not causing trauma to her that she can hopefully live a normal life? She seems to be doing pretty well right now with Harley's sister.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:04
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kalonZombie posted:Why is everyone talking about Joker falling into acid like that actually happened? Even in the Killing Joke, he basically admitted to it being that's how he remembered it happening THAT DAY and that how he remembers becoming the Joker changes on a constant basis. Joker's not really the best source to trust about his past. I think the reason people follow it is because it's the most detailed, best implemented, and most used explanation. Killing Joke, and earlier depictions, were the best and most authoritative, and generally, the most plausible explanation. It's not necessarily true, but I don't think it's ever been falsified in the same way other versions looked to be. It'd be nice to see some other Joker backstory theories, like the Mask of the Phantasm one, get some airtime, though.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:08
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kalonZombie posted:Why is everyone talking about Joker falling into acid like that actually happened? Even in the Killing Joke, he basically admitted to it being that's how he remembered it happening THAT DAY and that how he remembers becoming the Joker changes on a constant basis. Joker's not really the best source to trust about his past. Because that DID happen. Batman was there when the Red Hood fell. Now, what happened before he became the Red Hood and fell in is what is constantly changing like him being a comedian or a mob hitman or whatever the gently caress enters his mind that day. Even in BTAS it's mentioned he fell in acid at Ace chemicals (though this is because they cribbed from the awesome Nicholson Joker origin).
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Jul 24, 2014 14:15
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kalonZombie posted:Why is everyone talking about Joker falling into acid like that actually happened? Even in the Killing Joke, he basically admitted to it being that's how he remembered it happening THAT DAY and that how he remembers becoming the Joker changes on a constant basis. Joker's not really the best source to trust about his past. "The Joker fell in acid" is one of the things that is pretty much set in stone. Who he was before he fell in acid is arguably up for debate but Batman chased the Red Hood into Ace Chemicals and he fell into the chemicals is a thing that actually happened in pretty much every version of the story. Not in Nolan's, as far as we know, but that's the exception for anything made in recent years.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:19
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We don't have proof that the dude who fell in the acid survived and became the Joker, though. The lack of explanation for the Joker is one of the best things about him, and another reason why I'm actually not a big fan of the Red Hood interlude in AO (to steer us back on topic).
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Jul 24, 2014 14:38
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Discendo Vox posted:We don't have proof that the dude who fell in the acid survived and became the Joker, though. We don't have a body either, especially one that would have pale, chemically bleached skin from falling into the acid vats. We also have various confirmations from both him and others that he was the Red Hood. And as already explained, the lack of an explanation is still there for everything except the red hood falling into acid.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:43
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CuwiKhons posted:There have been a few comics and at least one episode in the animated series where Harley successfully captured and would have killed Batman and Joker stopped her because he can't stand the idea of somebody else being the one to kill Bats. Batman even mocked Joker by saying that Harley came closer to killing Batman than he ever had. This was something that bothered me in Arkham Asylum, during the audio taped sessions. Even when she was attempting to help the Joker, she still was using her super ditzy, high pitched voice. It wasn't nearly as animated as it is when she's Harley, but it made the change a lot less of a surprise. In the animated series, didn't she put the voice on as even more of an act to get his attention? I recall her having a pretty calm and collected voice. Harley's kind of a lost cause with DC because of exactly what everyone's been saying here though. There's a lot that can be done with her character, but they're just too scared of breaking away from the Harley/Joker situation to do it. Even in the animated series, there were points where she questioned whether or not she really wanted to stay with the Joker. It feels like writers now just have her completely devoted rather than trapped.
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Jul 24, 2014 15:50
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