FATAL & Friends 2014-15: The Neverending Storygame

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Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Davin Valkri posted:

Did proper mechanically-backed genre emulation really only happen in the 2000s? It feels weird hearing about stuff like that Indiana Jones example in an age where Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Leverage, Atomic Robo, and Double Cross are all readily available.

(Not saying those are the only ones, but they've all been noted, here or elsewhere in TG, as being very good at thematic reinforcement.)

Turns out people learn things over two decades. If this wasn't nerd poo poo we would have learned it earlier, but them's the breaks.

# ? Jul 24, 2014 23:41

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 03:21

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

It didn't just happen in the 00's, but that's when it really became A Thing, ironically growing up alongside D&D 3.x.

# ? Jul 24, 2014 23:43

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

One of the finest RPGs for genre emulation was my beloved James Bond 007, published in 1985. Way, way, way ahead of its time.

There's also Paranoia and Toon (both 1984).

# ? Jul 24, 2014 23:55

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

My personal favorite example of a licenced RPG completely missing the point mechanically was the Ghostbusters RPG, where the example of how to make skill checks was "let's say you wanted to eat a telephone".

Of course, that had just as much to do with WEG not understanding what makes things funny, which killed a few of their game lines.

# ? Jul 24, 2014 23:57

Green Intern: Dec 29, 2008; Loon, Crazy and Laughable

theironjef posted:

Yeah, that's so silly. Indy has a crazy ability to just mutter "Well this is an ancient dialect, but I can probably puzzle out the gist." Why take that away from the players who are just trying to play as Indy? Earn your fun, 80s plebes.

Don't you mean "are forced to play as Indy?" That strict stock playbook business was so distasteful to me, I wasn't surprised their product tanked.

Edit: Speaking of failed game products, I have a copy of The Noir RPG, by Archon Games. As far as I can tell, Archon never made any other products.

I have never run it, and only have it because it was given to me as a gift. I recall it being a fairly lackluster book, with a really obnoxious typeface. D6 dicepool + merits/flaws for the system. I'm not sure if it'd be worth doing a writeup for the thread, but I'll give it a solid reread and maybe I'll do that.

Green Intern fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jul 25, 2014

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:01

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Evil Mastermind posted:

My personal favorite example of a licenced RPG completely missing the point mechanically was the Ghostbusters RPG, where the example of how to make skill checks was "let's say you wanted to eat a telephone".

Of course, that had just as much to do with WEG not understanding what makes things funny, which killed a few of their game lines.

Actually that example owns, but only if you realize WEG was secretly adapting the Real Ghostbusters animated series.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:08

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Evil Mastermind posted:

My personal favorite example of a licenced RPG completely missing the point mechanically was the Ghostbusters RPG, where the example of how to make skill checks was "let's say you wanted to eat a telephone".

Of course, that had just as much to do with WEG not understanding what makes things funny, which killed a few of their game lines.

Yep, nice example in there of Peter sitting down and trying to eat a phone. Also there's a bit where it describes him going on a date, rolling poorly, and eating his tie. Lovely, especially given that I can't see Venkman wearing a tie.

Edit: GIS suggests he did sometimes. Seems wrong, like a traced drawing of an eggbeater. Doesn't fit in my brain. Probably not his either, maybe that's why he eats it.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:09

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

I can forgive the Ghostbusters RPG for a multitude of sins for basically being the game that invented Plot/Brownie/Drama/Hero etc etc points as a -thing-.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:13

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

unseenlibrarian posted:

I can forgive the Ghostbusters RPG for a multitude of sins for basically being the game that invented Plot/Brownie/Drama/Hero etc etc points as a -thing-.

James Bond 007 had them in 1985 (the year before Ghostbusters). Marvel Super Hero Role Playing Game had Karma points that worked similarly, and it was 1984. Top Secret had them as an optional rule back in 1980.

[Ask] Me about early-1980s RPGs.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:16

JamieTheD: Nov 4, 2011; LPer, Reviewer, Mad Welshman

(Yes, that's a self portrait)

Davin Valkri posted:

Did proper mechanically-backed genre emulation really only happen in the 2000s? It feels weird hearing about stuff like that Indiana Jones example in an age where Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Leverage, Atomic Robo, and Double Cross are all readily available.

(Not saying those are the only ones, but they've all been noted, here or elsewhere in TG, as being very good at thematic reinforcement.)

Weeeeelll... Call of Cthulhu mechanically emphasised how boned you were, does that count? But, as Mr. Maltose says, like computer games, designers have slowly been learning better ways of doing things.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:17

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

I think I talked about this a thread or two ago when we were discussing Paranoia 5th Edition, but when it got right down to it WEG's writers didn't see the difference between dark comedy, intelligent comedy, or slapstick. Everything got dumped into that category eventually.

There's a Paranoia 5th module that I swear to god reads like an episode of Family Guy.

unseenlibrarian posted:

I can forgive the Ghostbusters RPG for a multitude of sins for basically being the game that invented Plot/Brownie/Drama/Hero etc etc points as a -thing-.

True; it also invented Savage World's Wild Die.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:17

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think I talked about this a thread or two ago when we were discussing Paranoia 5th Edition, but when it got right down to it WEG's writers didn't see the difference between dark comedy, intelligent comedy, or slapstick. Everything got dumped into that category eventually.

WEG underwent a major turnover in staff in the early 1990s, and the quality of thinking and designing and writing dropped off a cliff afterwards. Paranoia 1E/2E modules from the 1980s are some of the most brilliant comedy RPG writing this hobby has ever seen.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:20

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think I talked about this a thread or two ago when we were discussing Paranoia 5th Edition, but when it got right down to it WEG's writers didn't see the difference between dark comedy, intelligent comedy, or slapstick. Everything got dumped into that category eventually.

There's a Paranoia 5th module that I swear to god reads like an episode of Family Guy.

True; it also invented Savage World's Wild Die.

Ray Stantz, being targeted by a ghost that fails to slime him but rolls a ghost die in the failure, gets slimed anyway, flies out a window, bounces off an awning, then another, flies through a window, and lands in the hot tub of a linebacker, frightening off his date. It is implied that he then gets beaten up. It really is the cartoon, only with less Slimer. The Brownie Points were a decent mechanic, though they were sort of awkward to use (the book seemed to emphasize using them to bargain down the penalties of being seriously wounded), and that Ghost Die did nothing but gently caress up the players. It was literally just a big ol' gently caress you mechanic that the players had to roll, every single time.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:21

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

OD&D was pretty good at emulating playing in Dying Earth. I mean that's a really narrow genre, but it does emulate it well.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:24

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

FMguru posted:

Paranoia 1E/2E modules from the 1980s are some of the most brilliant comedy RPG writing this hobby has ever seen.

Oh, I agree. I still have all my 2e stuff.

theironjef posted:

Ray Stantz, being targeted by a ghost that fails to slime him but rolls a ghost die in the failure, gets slimed anyway, flies out a window, bounces off an awning, then another, flies through a window, and lands in the hot tub of a linebacker, frightening off his date. It is implied that he then gets beaten up. It really is the cartoon, only with less Slimer. The Brownie Points were a decent mechanic, though they were sort of awkward to use (the book seemed to emphasize using them to bargain down the penalties of being seriously wounded), and that Ghost Die did nothing but gently caress up the players. It was literally just a big ol' gently caress you mechanic that the players had to roll, every single time.

That's what I'm talking about, though; even the cartoon wasn't that cartoony. Real Ghostbusters was more grounded in reality than the RPG.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:30

Darth Various: Oct 23, 2010

JamieTheD posted:

Weeeeelll... Call of Cthulhu mechanically emphasised how boned you were, does that count? But, as Mr. Maltose says, like computer games, designers have slowly been learning better ways of doing things.

Besides that by the rules as written, you can roundhouse kick Deep Ones. ENWorld told me so. :v:

E: vvv Well yeah, that's all true.

Darth Various fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jul 25, 2014

# ? Jul 25, 2014 00:32

JamieTheD: Nov 4, 2011; LPer, Reviewer, Mad Welshman

(Yes, that's a self portrait)

Darth Various posted:

Besides that by the rules as written, you can roundhouse kick Deep Ones. ENWorld told me so.

Nice. I'd forgotten about that... But still... Read a book? Go insane. Cast magic? Go insane. Use a magic gubbins? Most likely go insane, possibly get injured/cursed/zambified as well. See a monster? Go insane, and die horribly to anything nastier than a Deep One, because even LAW Rockets bounce off, and the players refuse to believe this (Yes, okay, I stole that bit from Knights of the Dinner Table, but "Scream of Kachoolu" was pretty spot on.)

Meet Great Cthulhu? 1d10 people every combat round instantly die, everyone goes insane, and his attacks do about five times more damage than you'll ever have hitpoints.

Did I mention I love CoC? Because I love CoC.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 01:42

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Green Intern posted:

Edit: Speaking of failed game products, I have a copy of The Noir RPG, by Archon Games. As far as I can tell, Archon never made any other products.

I have never run it, and only have it because it was given to me as a gift. I recall it being a fairly lackluster book, with a really obnoxious typeface. D6 dicepool + merits/flaws for the system. I'm not sure if it'd be worth doing a writeup for the thread, but I'll give it a solid reread and maybe I'll do that.

If I recall correctly, there were some really shady backstage hijinx in the making of that game. I believe it was a case of "a geek with some money invests it in his dream" and there were shenanigans with writers and artists not getting paid while they blew money on ridiculous poo poo like catered parties at conventions.

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think I talked about this a thread or two ago when we were discussing Paranoia 5th Edition, but when it got right down to it WEG's writers didn't see the difference between dark comedy, intelligent comedy, or slapstick. Everything got dumped into that category eventually.

There's a Paranoia 5th module that I swear to god reads like an episode of Family Guy.

They weren't written by the same people, but WEG's Men in Black has the same problem. The movies are deadpan; the game is wacky.

Davin Valkri posted:

Did proper mechanically-backed genre emulation really only happen in the 2000s? It feels weird hearing about stuff like that Indiana Jones example in an age where Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Leverage, Atomic Robo, and Double Cross are all readily available.

OD&D was a very focused game, the problem is that it's focus was very baroque ("a medieval wargaming infiltration module, with a particular mishmash of pulp fiction influences") and very poorly transmitted.

Pendragon is another 1985 game deserving mention.

PresidentBeard posted:

OD&D was pretty good at emulating playing in Dying Earth. I mean that's a really narrow genre, but it does emulate it well.

Uh, er, hm. I wouldn't say that.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 01:43

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

JamieTheD posted:

Nice. I'd forgotten about that... But still... Read a book? Go insane. Cast magic? Go insane. Use a magic gubbins? Most likely go insane, possibly get injured/cursed/zambified as well. See a monster? Go insane, and die horribly to anything nastier than a Deep One, because even LAW Rockets bounce off, and the players refuse to believe this (Yes, okay, I stole that bit from Knights of the Dinner Table, but "Scream of Kachoolu" was pretty spot on.)

Meet Great Cthulhu? 1d10 people every combat round instantly die, everyone goes insane, and his attacks do about five times more damage than you'll ever have hitpoints.

Did I mention I love CoC? Because I love CoC.

The weirdest part is that in the source literature humanity won a lot. CoC the game is far more dangerous in some ways. It also reinforced the GM vs. Players mentality.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 01:56

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Oh man I forgot Pendragon is that old. Talk about a game of genre emulation.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 01:57

JamieTheD: Nov 4, 2011; LPer, Reviewer, Mad Welshman

(Yes, that's a self portrait)

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

The weirdest part is that in the source literature humanity won a lot. CoC the game is far more dangerous in some ways. It also reinforced the GM vs. Players mentality.

Well, for a given value of "won", anyhow. But yeah, the game is decidedly adversarial, and this is unfortunately true of many early systems, because of the wargaming link... Not a lot of designers back then were good with the whole "co-operative storytelling" thing, even though they often paid at least lip service to the idea.

Still, even today, horror games can be surprisingly adversarial. I have at least two (both, funnily enough, based on slasher films) where it outright states that every character is going to die. Deadlands was very similar in that respect, in that there were monsters and NPCs, in game, whose entire purpose was "Rocks Fall"... Stone being the prime example, his whole reason for existence being to make sure nobody stops the Reckoners by murdering anyone who could potentially do it, before they get anywhere close to that powerful.

Actually, it's very rare to find a good horror RPG (or a good horror DM), to the point where most stories end up as silly as Tales From The Crypt (Total aside: The HBO retellings are pretty much required viewing for anyone doing "camp" horror, and are amusing viewing even without that.)

# ? Jul 25, 2014 02:27

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Hearing about Stone basically single-handedly kept me from playing Deadlands. That is the most ridiculous kind of bullshit in older RPGs, where the game felt it had to protect its own goddamn metaplot. From what? The DM can just write that stupid crap out, and what are the designers going to do, come yell at them?

# ? Jul 25, 2014 02:30

Green Intern: Dec 29, 2008; Loon, Crazy and Laughable

Halloween Jack posted:

If I recall correctly, there were some really shady backstage hijinx in the making of that game. I believe it was a case of "a geek with some money invests it in his dream" and there were shenanigans with writers and artists not getting paid while they blew money on ridiculous poo poo like catered parties at conventions.

I would not be surprised. The book just has this feeling of "cut corners" all the way through. I recall a fair few really simple typos that would have been caught if anyone was being paid to give a drat.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 02:39

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

The weirdest part is that in the source literature humanity won a lot. CoC the game is far more dangerous in some ways. It also reinforced the GM vs. Players mentality.

The broader mythos has seen a lot of authors with different attitudes toward the canon. CoC picks up a few bits from Lumley and others (Cthonians, for example), though his mythos stories end up involving the good twins of various Great Old Ones and going far more toward adventure pulp than weird tales of decay and despair, and while CoC definitely leans toward the sole, batshit survivor school of endings, it's capable of some thematic flexibility. Compare the Blood Brothers adventure books (with 3D action!) to Horror on the Orient Express, to the Dreamlands supplements.

Night10194 posted:

Hearing about Stone basically single-handedly kept me from playing Deadlands. That is the most ridiculous kind of bullshit in older RPGs, where the game felt it had to protect its own goddamn metaplot. From what? The DM can just write that stupid crap out, and what are the designers going to do, come yell at them?

Nah, we're all nerds. They just take the passive aggressive route and assume that you're following along, predicating everything on metaplot progression. If they blow it up, or decide something is too good for players to have, they can just skip those parts going forth.

Bieeanshee fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jul 25, 2014

# ? Jul 25, 2014 02:48

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Green Intern posted:

I would not be surprised. The book just has this feeling of "cut corners" all the way through. I recall a fair few really simple typos that would have been caught if anyone was being paid to give a drat.

I quoted a bunch of stuff here, but it was too much. Long story short, developer Jack Norr just tears into the company in this RPGnet thread.

Somebody loving explain to me why I remember RPG business gossip from years ago, but I can't find my football.

Also:

quote:

Archon owner Lisa Mann e-mailed me one day after I wrote a Usenet post about Noir. She offered me a job writing fiction for one of their anthologies. Based on a Usenet post.

They threw a party at the GAMA trade show, featuring ice sculptures and free cigars.

You have to do this.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 05:11

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

Halloween Jack posted:

Uh, er, hm. I wouldn't say that.

Really? It seemed to have a similar murderhobo and random magic killing you for no reason. Unless I'm misremembering how the Dying Earth stories actually ran. It's been a long time since I read any of them. So if I'm completely misrepresenting them my bad.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 06:02

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

PresidentBeard posted:

Really? It seemed to have a similar murderhobo and random magic killing you for no reason. Unless I'm misremembering how the Dying Earth stories actually ran. It's been a long time since I read any of them. So if I'm completely misrepresenting them my bad.

It could run Liane, but not Cugel.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 06:15

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Davin Valkri posted:

Did proper mechanically-backed genre emulation really only happen in the 2000s? It feels weird hearing about stuff like that Indiana Jones example in an age where Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Leverage, Atomic Robo, and Double Cross are all readily available.

(Not saying those are the only ones, but they've all been noted, here or elsewhere in TG, as being very good at thematic reinforcement.)

There's been attempts at genre emulation through the years, but mostly on the sidelines of gaming or in ways that didn't quite succeed. The oldest explicit example I can think of offhand (but I'm sure there's older) is 1984's TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, which tied XP ("Karma" I think it was?) to doing "heroic" things and let you spend XP on rerolling checks and some of the things now considered "dramatic editing". (And contrary to unseenlibrarian's comment, MSH predated Ghostbusters by two years. Even if GB's take is a bit closer to the modern one). There were games like Teenagers from Outer Space and Toon that attempted to play loose and light to keep with the feel of the source genres, with pretty good success. Even into the 90's, things like the oWoD's humanity/morality mechanics were an attempt to enforce a genre, just with mixed success.

Just as has been already mentioned, there was sort of a sea change in the late 90's/early aughts where people really started to look at the "metagame" of and started more actively making mechanics and designs that would naturally guide players towards RPing within the theme of the game. It's not surprising that this has a pretty heavy correlation with the downfall of "generic" systems like GURPS.

Evil Mastermind posted:

Of course, that had just as much to do with WEG not understanding what makes things funny, which killed a few of their game lines.

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think I talked about this a thread or two ago when we were discussing Paranoia 5th Edition, but when it got right down to it WEG's writers didn't see the difference between dark comedy, intelligent comedy, or slapstick. Everything got dumped into that category eventually.

There's a Paranoia 5th module that I swear to god reads like an episode of Family Guy.

I will never get the love for WEG that still lingers in the RPG community. Having played a lot of them back when they were contemporary, their games were always horrible. I guess a slick presentation, excellent presentation, and big-name licenses go a long way.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 06:41

Green Intern: Dec 29, 2008; Loon, Crazy and Laughable

Halloween Jack posted:

I quoted a bunch of stuff here, but it was too much. Long story short, developer Jack Norr just tears into the company in this RPGnet thread.

Somebody loving explain to me why I remember RPG business gossip from years ago, but I can't find my football.

Also:

They threw a party at the GAMA trade show, featuring ice sculptures and free cigars.

You have to do this.

Holy crap, that's impressive sleuthing. I'll start my reread this weekend. Might take a bit to actually get some content down for the thread.

Edit: Read that rpgnet thread, and now I understand the true horror of Archon. Also someone laments the "erstwhile vilification of Kevin Siembieda," which makes me laugh. Thanks for the information. I'll incorporate at least some of it into my writeup somehow.

Green Intern fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jul 25, 2014

# ? Jul 25, 2014 12:12

JamieTheD: Nov 4, 2011; LPer, Reviewer, Mad Welshman

(Yes, that's a self portrait)

Asimo posted:

Just as has been already mentioned, there was sort of a sea change in the late 90's/early aughts where people really started to look at the "metagame" of and started more actively making mechanics and designs that would naturally guide players towards RPing within the theme of the game. It's not surprising that this has a pretty heavy correlation with the downfall of "generic" systems like GURPS.

Except that FATE is a generic system. PDQ is a generic system. Savage Worlds, while intended for a genre, is still a generic system. Unisystem, GURPS 4th... While designers have learned how to do thematic gaming better, it is nowhere near true that "generic" systems have undergone a downfall... If anything, they've had an upturn.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 13:53

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Rifts Mercenaries Part 6: " In natural form, she appears as a large jaguar-woman, still attractive in a furry way."

Crow's Commandoes

Covert ops and counter-terrorism... wait, does Rifts even have conventional terrorism that isn't literally terrifying monsters? I suppose it must it just feels odd. In any case, this is the surgical strike team that likes to catch folks with their pants down. Because they use black uniforms and armor, sometimes they're confused for Coalition troopers, embarassingly. Not as much discussion or fiction here, so we're moving on to the team itself.

_{Crow, Leila, Wilheim}

Lieutenant Damian Crow (Special Forces): A former member with the Northern Gun military, he was dishonorably discharged for being "involved" with a superior's wife. He got merc experience with another unit called "Illych's Immortals" before being one of the last surviving members. Though he's a great tactician and talker, he often made decisions with his dick until he got a steady lover... but still might.
Leila Martinez (Werejaguar): Lost and adopted by a city family, Leila has grown up amongst humans. She used her powers to become a troubleshooter, and met Crow during a mission and fell in love with him. However, their affair is kept quiet and not many know about it. Oh, and she's sexy even as a jaguarwoman!... thanks for keeping it Rifts, Carella.
Sgt. 1st Class Wilheim Kratz: A former member of the NGR military, Kratz took it upon himself to judge and murder incompetent superiors on the field of battle, at least until he got caught in the act and fled to North America (somehow?). He met up with Crow when they were in the Immortals, and was just glad to have a competent command to follow. He's extremely loyal and extremely ruthless (to the extreme, no doubt), lecherous (in a dumb way), and a little racist (subconsciously) towards D-Bees (but is super friends with Mr. Green).

_{Green, Sonya, Kinoshi, Curtis}

Mr. Green (Tauton): A Tauton warrior (see Rifts World Book Four: Africa), he had an honorable and merciful streak that got him in trouble with his eeevil masters. However, he was badass enough to overcome it, and when sent to Africa on Earth, he murdered the rest of his squad and felt to North America (somehow?). He was hired by Crow, and is pretty nice crocodile guy with a sense of humor, that also has him sometimes to pretend to be man-eating for laffs (it says "cannibal", but that doesn't make sense).
Sonya "The Face" Schultz (Changeling Super-Spy): A Changeling that used to work with an interdimensional merc group called The Trashers, they tried to rob Splynn (in Atlantis) but were almost entirely killed as a result. She escaped to Africa and Europe and America, presumably? In any case, she heard about Crow and snuck into his camp as a form of resume. She models her self on "the stereotypical female spy of every bad movie ever made in the 20th century", even on the downtime, but isn't a killer. Oh, and she knows a bit of magic.
Kinoshi (Dedicated Martial Artist): A ninja from another dimension (the one depicted in Ninjas and Superspies, he went to a secret temple to find a hidden treasure and instead went through magic doors to Rifts Earth. Working as a merc, he was picked up by Crow, and has become more relaxed with them. "... the teacher in The Karate Kid movies is a good model for his character."
Curtis "The Shadow Man' Robert (Ley Line Walker): A ley line walker that became a fan of The Shadow books, so he decided to dress like the hero. This got him shunned in Lazlo, and so went on to become an adventurer before being picked up by Crow. They find his act a hoot, but he's apparently good enough at being intimidating that he can actually scare the pants off of normal people. (Evidently, Carella is a lot more enamoured with his pop culture references than Siembieda...)

We also get a series of units commanded by the above characters (Alpha through Gamma), and four squads of combat troops (Omega-1 through Omega-4), and they have around 75 troops overall and about 65 support personnel. The game gives ranges like "60-90", but that just seems unnecessary. They're mobile and mostly rely on ATVs, but have a good number of power armor suits as well.

Then we have adventure "ideas". There's Scarecrows, where the PCs are charged with protecing a noble from one of Crow's infiltrators (like Sonya or Kinoshi). Or the PCs are recruited to help Crow infiltrate, but it turns out to be a trap laid by the Coalition. Or maybe the noble is possessed by a demon and everything goes to hell!

Then we have King of the Mountain, where a daughter of a rich dude is captured by bandits. The bandits are holed up in a well-defended mountain community. One possibility is that the girl somehow related to the PCs and they go to save her, but Crow's Commandoes are also on the job and might butt heads. Or maybe the girl wasn't kidnapped, but fled to her new boyfriend, and her father is lying to get Crow's Commandoes to drag her back.

Next: Bad Boys 3: Ex-Coalition Edition

# ? Jul 25, 2014 14:07

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Asimo posted:

I will never get the love for WEG that still lingers in the RPG community. Having played a lot of them back when they were contemporary, their games were always horrible. I guess a slick presentation, excellent presentation, and big-name licenses go a long way.

WEG got a lot of leeway because they had the Star Wars licence (and the game was good for it's time), Paranoia (which is where all the good writers they had were focused), and Torg (which was very different from everything else available at the time).

Of course, when they lost the Star Wars licence and all the good Paranoia writers left, that's when things started falling apart.

JamieTheD posted:

Except that FATE is a generic system. PDQ is a generic system. Savage Worlds, while intended for a genre, is still a generic system. Unisystem, GURPS 4th... While designers have learned how to do thematic gaming better, it is nowhere near true that "generic" systems have undergone a downfall... If anything, they've had an upturn.

I think it's not so much generic systems as 90's generic systems, which were more about modeling EVERYTHING you might conceivable want to do mechanically. You still see lingering bits of that mindset nowadays, though, in things like crafting skills or people worrying about the difficulty in moving up a hill.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 14:27

occamsnailfile: Nov 4, 2007; zamtrios so lonely; Grimey Drawer

Evil Mastermind posted:

's not so much generic systems as 90's generic systems, which were more about modeling EVERYTHING you might conceivable want to do mechanically. You still see lingering bits of that mindset nowadays, though, in things like crafting skills or people worrying about the difficulty in moving up a hill.

I even like GURPS and have played more of it than D&D but I'll agree that it needs yet another edition (one free of direct Steve influence) and some trimming. Its particular balance of crunch ended up working for me more than other crunchy systems usually do.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 15:36

MalcolmSheppard: Jun 24, 2012; MATTHEW 7:20

Halloween Jack posted:

It appears that that's okay with Siembedia, and that Palladium's first priority isn't to innovate, or to grow their brand, but to provide a living for the handful of full-time employees who have been there for 20+ years. He would certainly like for the movie and video game deals to take off, but he's not going to risk his more-or-less comfortable living to do that, much less to bring the game-as-written in line with the game as he supposedly plays it himself. (I believe Malcolm Sheppard approached them about doing a spin-off game that would use a much simpler version of the system that was still fully compatible, and they declined.)

What I did was send a kind of elevator pitch with this in mind: I would write, design, layout and co-publish an RPG with them that used a revision of Palladium's house system in exchange for a decent royalty. The idea was that Palladium could get these design assets for *nothing* and if they didn't like them, could dump them, *and* would get a product they didn't have to pay for (and if it had gone further, I would suggest get printed on a PoD regime). I would even hire my own artists and editors. In return, I would get Palladium branding, fulfillment and fan access, most of which costs them nothing, because it's valuable enough to take that risk on.

Now to be fair, AlexM over there is very accessible and said no upon initial contact, so it's not as if they got the whole spiel I was prepared to provide.

As for the Palladium system itself, it has some definite gems in its easy action-adventure focus, and how it asks for minimal abstraction in narrating action. (One punch=1 die roll!) It has a bunch of issues, too, but I think it would be possible to develop a great game working from what's there. Some of the individual games have moments of brilliance, and Kevin S knows his comic book-style SF and even stuff he didn't write benefits from that kind of creative direction. I mean, something like Guardians of the Galaxy is totally Palladium.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 15:58

hectorgrey: Oct 14, 2011

One thing I do like about GURPS is how the level of crunch is entirely up to the GM. Probably the most accurate appraisal of the system that I've heard is that it isn't really so much a system as a box of lego bricks for you to build a system out of.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 16:21

kaynorr: Dec 31, 2003

hectorgrey posted:

One thing I do like about GURPS is how the level of crunch is entirely up to the GM. Probably the most accurate appraisal of the system that I've heard is that it isn't really so much a system as a box of lego bricks for you to build a system out of.

They've tried to change that in the last few years with the Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunter lines, which are roughly analogous to buying a LEGO kit that you can make into an X-Wing or a Camaro or what-have-you. It's a valiant effort, but doesn't really play to GURPS' strengths which are largely in insanely flexible character creation. Infinite Worlds or Transhuman Space did far better jobs of that, but just didn't sell enough.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 16:46

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

kaynorr posted:

They've tried to change that in the last few years with the Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunter lines, which are roughly analogous to buying a LEGO kit that you can make into an X-Wing or a Camaro or what-have-you. It's a valiant effort, but doesn't really play to GURPS' strengths which are largely in insanely flexible character creation. Infinite Worlds or Transhuman Space did far better jobs of that, but just didn't sell enough.

Man I thought that was about the Capcom Monster Hunter games and I got all excited.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 17:11

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

WEG also had one of the best modern conflict board wargames in AirCav and a bunch of good historical board wargames. I wasn't really a fan of the D6 system, but I did like TORG.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 17:16

kaynorr: Dec 31, 2003

Evil Mastermind posted:

Man I thought that was about the Capcom Monster Hunter games and I got all excited.

You could probably do Capcom Monster Hunter without too much effort, because close-range melee/ranged combat with lowtech weapons is one of those things that GURPS does really well. The only real jarring part is that like most tabletop RPGs the numbers don't get really big, so you can't slowly whittle down the health of a giant bag of hitpoints. It would be about avoid attacks and making a lot of low-chance hits until someone gets lucky. Another of GURPS virtues is that a single hit can have a lot of knock on effects such as shock, knockdown, limb crippling, etc. - so the nature of the fight slowly changes as you make significant hits.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 17:16

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 03:21

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

WEG also had one of the best modern conflict board wargames in AirCav and a bunch of good historical board wargames. I wasn't really a fan of the D6 system, but I did like TORG.

Yeah, WEG was really two companies: the 1980s WEG which made excellent boardgames (Tank Leader! RAF! Web and Starship! Junta! Tales of the Arabian Nights!), Paranoia, Torg, and Star Wars 1E, and 1990s WEG which spiraled down until it was shipping junk like the $30 hardback RPG supplement for Star Wars "The Truce At Bakura", Paranoia 5E, and RPGs based on the Species and Tank Girl properties. Oh, and one of the strangest, least-loved RPGs ever - Shatterzone.

Actually, there were three companies: I forgot that guy who bought out their IP in the 2000s and tried to relaunch it, only to become the dictionary definition of a nerd with a dream and a line of credit but less than zero business sense. What a trainwreck that was.

# ? Jul 25, 2014 17:28

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