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http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1407_2015_dodge_challenger_srt_hellcat_first_test/quote:Now a word about trap speeds. 125 mph is insane. Here's some comparative data for you. The 991 Porsche 911 Turbo S can hammer home the quarter mile in just 10.9 seconds (on Pirelli P Zeros, coincidently) but its trap speed is only 123.7 mph. The quicker time is due to better traction at launch (thanks, AWD!) but the Dodge -- which costs a third the entry price of the porker, about $60K versus $180K -- is going faster at the end of 1320 feet. And since stoplight-to-stoplight racing is never GPS-tracked ... You get my point. Look at the 2014 Nissan GT-R Track Edition. That flavor of Godzilla does the quarter in 11.0 seconds flat, but is "only" trapping at 125.1 mph. OK, so the Hellcat's barely faster, but here's the point -- it's faster. Not quite the 11.2 dodge put out, but trap speeds faster than a 911 turbo S, or nissan GTR. Amazing for a car that weighs 4449lbs and 57/43 weight distro.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:34
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Kill-9 posted:Terrible? Maybe. Ashamed? Nope. It's their brains and their life. It's not my place to enforce. If someone decides to not wear a helmet, it's very unlikely to harm anyone but themselves. Just like smoking. It's a stupid loving idea but I'm not going to go around telling my friends "don't loving smoke". I'm not their mommy. You're getting beat up over this, but I'm in the exact same boat: I'd never, ever drive a motorcycle on a public road. It's just too drat dangerous. However, I'd consider something like this, especially after reading your review. I can't help but wonder why it isn't FWD.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:47
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oRenj9 posted:You're getting beat up over this, but I'm in the exact same boat: I'd never, ever drive a motorcycle on a public road. It's just too drat dangerous. However, I'd consider something like this, especially after reading your review. Because front wheel drive sucks.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:48
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I really wish Hyundai would mass produce their own gokart with the Genesis motor, no added frills, and sticker it for $20k. Or someone. The Crossbow costing $88k is a ridiculous entry point. I get that you don't cross shop the Can Am and the Atom/Xbow, but you can get a trike for $15k. Take a parts-bin turbo I4, mediocre suspension, enough modern functions so that it's not breaking down or burning up every 15 minutes, and spend the rest of the budget on a relatively well-tooled 1500lb chassis. Presto, the new budget Atom; MSRP it at $25k. They'd sell like crazy. Hyundai Genesis Superleggera.
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Jul 29, 2014 03:48
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Twerk from Home posted:Ford HellTaurus, the 17 foot long muscle sedan. Ford Taurus Pamplona. 
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Jul 29, 2014 03:50
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Nait Sirhc posted:Take a parts-bin turbo I4, mediocre suspension, enough modern functions so that it's not breaking down or burning up every 15 minutes, and spend the rest of the budget on a relatively well-tooled 1500lb chassis. Presto, the new budget Atom; MSRP it at $25k. They'd sell like crazy. Hyundai Genesis Superleggera. So a CG WRX with tons of weight reduction and rwd only?
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Jul 29, 2014 03:56
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Nait Sirhc posted:I really wish Hyundai would mass produce their own gokart with the Genesis motor, no added frills, and sticker it for $20k. Or someone. The Crossbow costing $88k is a ridiculous entry point. I get that you don't cross shop the Can Am and the Atom/Xbow, but you can get a trike for $15k. The FRS/BRZ had to make comprimises to make the 25k pricepoint, such as cast iron suspension componenets. It also came from 2 companies with experience in well-sorted chassis. I don't understand why the motorcycle companies that also make cars can't make a car that reflects what they do with a motorcycle. Honda and suzuki make superbikes, but produce shitbox cars. Someone like kawasaki should shake the game up, license the rear engine twingo and put the ZX-14 engine into it and some big sticky tires. e: there can't possibly be too much inside the front 80% of the twingo that they couldn't make the body look like an moder porsche 550. Powershift fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 04:15
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Powershift posted:I don't understand why the motorcycle companies that also make cars can't make a car that reflects what they do with a motorcycle. Honda and suzuki make superbikes, but produce shitbox cars. Developing a car is orders of magnitude more complex and expensive than developing a bike. Besides which, Suzuki makes solid cheap vehicles and Honda makes the best, or damned near the best, cars in every segment which they compete in. When Honda actually gives a poo poo about catering to car nerds they produce something like the NSX, Integra Type-R or S2000; Honda makes boring cars because boring cars make money, not because they're incapable of making world-class sports cars. I doubt Kawasaki could build a road-worthy, marketable, real (Not a kit car) car without a massive corporate restructuring, to say nothing of the dealership and repair requirements.
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Jul 29, 2014 04:49
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Pretty sure you guys are running into kit car territory with these proposals.
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Jul 29, 2014 04:51
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Wheeee posted:Developing a car is orders of magnitude more complex and expensive than developing a bike. Besides which, Suzuki makes solid cheap vehicles and Honda makes the best, or damned near the best, cars in every segment which they compete in. When Honda actually gives a poo poo about catering to car nerds they produce something like the NSX, Integra Type-R or S2000; Honda makes boring cars because boring cars make money, not because they're incapable of making world-class sports cars. Are you from 2002? That's the only scenario where i could see someone thinking honda is at the head of the pack, or bringing up the NSX, S2000, or ITR in defense of them. I'm not suggesting kawasaki start from scratch, Instead apply their efforts to an existing chassis, like what was done with the lotus carlton, MG SV, or prodrive P2(granted this was never produced) Cream_Filling posted:Pretty sure you guys are running into kit car territory with these proposals. Or take the TVR route. edit: just had a thought. I wonder if 2015 WRX stuff will fit into the factory five 818.  FA 20/6 speed would sure beat the EJ/5 speed Powershift fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 05:00
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Powershift posted:edit: just had a thought. I wonder if 2015 WRX stuff will fit into the factory five 818. Wouldn't be surprised. I bet the bellhousing is the same and everything (although on the BRZ the starter got moved to the other side - I don't think that's the case on the WRX). Dunno about the tailshaft adapter, I don't think they have one for the STI 6MT yet but the WRX 6MT case should be roughly the same I bet.
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Jul 29, 2014 05:22
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oRenj9 posted:You're getting beat up over this, but I'm in the exact same boat: I'd never, ever drive a motorcycle on a public road. It's just too drat dangerous. However, I'd consider something like this, especially after reading your review. I'd wager those trikes are not significantly more safe than a motorcycle - it has no airbags or crumple zones, so if you got rear ended by an SUV instead of getting thrown into the air and probably breaking some bones and getting a concussion on the landing but otherwise surviving assuming you're wearing a helmet and armored gear while riding a bike, this thing has the potential to get you smashed into a metal-meat-metal sandwich as the rear of that thing collapses and smashes you forward into the engine. Being classed as a motorcycle means there's no requirement for any crash testing or safety equipment of any kind, so I wouldn't be entirely surprised that it has some fun blast-from-the-past deathtrap amenities like non-collapsing steering columns and non-breakaway engine mounts that allow the engine to intrude into the footwell. I don't envy the first time some firefighters have to use the jaws of life to pry someone's mangled corpse from the middle of one of these things.
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Jul 29, 2014 05:30
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Powershift posted:I don't understand why the motorcycle companies that also make cars can't make a car that reflects what they do with a motorcycle. Honda and suzuki make superbikes, but produce shitbox cars. Someone like kawasaki should shake the game up, license the rear engine twingo and put the ZX-14 engine into it and some big sticky tires. The motorcycle companies are completely separate business elements. Honda's motorcycle business has as much to do with their cars as it does with their lawnmowers (with the NC700's half-a-Fit-engine being a very, very rare thread of synergy) and only somewhat more than Kawasaki's bikes have to do with their high-speed trains, or Yamaha's bikes with their pianos. This is also why Suzuki's US motorcycle arm wasn't pulled down when the US car business went kaput. Even ignoring the corporate structure angle, you have a tremendous regulatory burden introduced if you start making automobiles, and the huge hassle of building a dealer / service network (see: Tesla) that is going to share roughly nothing with your powersport product line.
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Jul 29, 2014 05:32
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Powershift posted:Are you from 2002? Considering the amount of customization you need to do to assemble one of thee (even when following the instruction manual to the letter), I'm sure anything could fit.
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Jul 29, 2014 05:53
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Well, the base model GLA pricing has been announced at $31,300. Be prepared to see these absolutley loving everywhere.
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Jul 29, 2014 06:03
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Wouldn't be surprised. I bet the bellhousing is the same and everything (although on the BRZ the starter got moved to the other side - I don't think that's the case on the WRX). Dunno about the tailshaft adapter, I don't think they have one for the STI 6MT yet but the WRX 6MT case should be roughly the same I bet. It was annoying enough getting the EJ in there:  But someone is doing an EZ30 and someone else a VR6 so I'm sure its doable. That said the turbo EJ is probably enough power for 60% of the weight of the WRX.
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Jul 29, 2014 06:04
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Powershift posted:http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1407_2015_dodge_challenger_srt_hellcat_first_test/ Quarter miles are easy to dissect. 60ft is about traction, trap speed is HP, and ET is a mix of the two. Stick it on a road course and you'll feel every one of those 4449 pounds. And quoting that article quote:What about competition you can't buy new anymore, like -- for instance -- the recently discontinued 662-hp Shelby GT500? The lighter Snake needed only 3.5 seconds for its 60-mph blast and 11.6 seconds to go down the quarter mile with a trap speed of 125.7 mph. Slight advantage: Ford ilkhan fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 06:05
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You think the tires or the transmission will last longer on that dodge hellcat?
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Jul 29, 2014 13:21
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Powershift posted:http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1407_2015_dodge_challenger_srt_hellcat_first_test/ If we're going to do stupid comparisons, how many G's does the hellcat pull? How about the slalom? Oh, that's not what the car is about? I know I was shopping the Porsche for the sick 1/4 mile times  . Did you know that the Dodge Ram is also better offroad than the new Z06?
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Jul 29, 2014 13:33
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Powershift posted:Well, the base model GLA pricing has been announced at $31,300. I...think... I like it.
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Jul 29, 2014 13:54
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fknlo posted:If we're going to do stupid comparisons, how many G's does the hellcat pull? How about the slalom? Oh, that's not what the car is about? I know I was shopping the Porsche for the sick 1/4 mile times I'm not supposed to offroad corvettes?
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Jul 29, 2014 14:46
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G-Mach posted:I'm not supposed to offroad corvettes? Ignore him, he's just trying to hurt you.  fknlo posted:If we're going to do stupid comparisons, how many G's does the hellcat pull? How about the slalom? Oh, that's not what the car is about? I know I was shopping the Porsche for the sick 1/4 mile times Those figures would make it a better all-around performance car, which at $60k would really be amazing. The point is if you encounter either of those other cars in the wild, you would might be able to embarass them. Those 2 were chosen because they are the 2 fastest regular road cars. Nobody is saying someone is going to cross-shop a Turbo S and a hellcat based on trap speeds. Christobevii3 posted:You think the tires or the transmission will last longer on that dodge hellcat? Powershift fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 15:56
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Powershift posted:Well, the base model GLA pricing has been announced at $31,300. I don't understand MB's rush to go downmarket all of a sudden. There's no way they're making a quality vehicle on par with MB's standards for 31.3K. It'll be interesting to see the ramifications of decisions like this in 10 or 15 years. And yes, those fuckers will be everywhere. Here in San Antonio, home of the 30,000 dollar millionaire, C300's and CLA250's are everywhere.. they can barely keep them on the lot. Lots of GLK350's as well. To each their own, but I rather drive a Fusion Titanium than a stripped CLA.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:02
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skipdogg posted:I don't understand MB's rush to go downmarket all of a sudden. There's no way they're making a quality vehicle on par with MB's standards for 31.3K. It'll be interesting to see the ramifications of decisions like this in 10 or 15 years. And yes, those fuckers will be everywhere. Here in San Antonio, home of the 30,000 dollar millionaire, C300's and CLA250's are everywhere.. they can barely keep them on the lot. Lots of GLK350's as well. To each their own, but I rather drive a Fusion Titanium than a stripped CLA. Fleet fuel economy standards probably play a big role. Being a taller CLA, it should get close to the same 26 city/38 highway, and selling 10 of these to each twin turbo V8 they sell means their fleet average will look pretty good. Sure, they make a diesel hybrid e-class that does 70mpg, but convincing the customers in the price range to buy that is a hell of a lot harder than selling an econobox to badge whores.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:11
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skipdogg posted:I don't understand MB's rush to go downmarket all of a sudden. There's no way they're making a quality vehicle on par with MB's standards for 31.3K. It'll be interesting to see the ramifications of decisions like this in 10 or 15 years. And yes, those fuckers will be everywhere. Here in San Antonio, home of the 30,000 dollar millionaire, C300's and CLA250's are everywhere.. they can barely keep them on the lot. Lots of GLK350's as well. To each their own, but I rather drive a Fusion Titanium than a stripped CLA. You're right. Merc has never ever cheaped out on quality while doubling down on aspirational advertising before.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7iF981umiA Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 16:12
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Powershift posted:Fleet fuel economy standards probably play a big role. Being a taller CLA, it should get close to the same 26 city/38 highway, and selling 10 of these to each twin turbo V8 they sell means their fleet average will look pretty good. Sure, they make a diesel hybrid e-class that does 70mpg, but convincing the customers in the price range to buy that is a hell of a lot harder than selling an econobox to badge whores. That makes some sense. Seat Safety Switch posted:You're right. Merc has never ever cheaped out on quality while doubling down on aspirational advertising before. I'm not sure they've ever done it to this extreme... they've always had their entry level C class, a friends mom had a 2002 C230 Kompressor hatch back in the day, but now they have 4 different vehicles that can be had for under 40K. Maybe I need to adjust my internal opinion of MB. I still think of them as a premium car brand that builds some of the nicest cars on the road and charges appropriately for them. Now people can cross shop a Kia Optima Limited with a C250 Luxury sedan, and the Kia is probably the better car. skipdogg fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 16:27
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Powershift posted:Sure, they make a diesel hybrid e-class that does 70mpg,  Must not be available in America
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Jul 29, 2014 16:35
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skipdogg posted:That makes some sense. Model bloat has a lot to do with it as well. The CLA is about the same size as the w202 C class. The new C class is about the same size as the W124 E-class. It's not as rapid as most brands, but it's happening. Audi brought in the A1 because the A2 PCOS Bill posted:
Of course not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITiqurE8dc It costs the equiavelnt of $72,000 in the UK. That would be a tough sell in north america. Powershift fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jul 29, 2014 |
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Jul 29, 2014 16:37
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PCOS Bill posted:
Looks like you'd be correct. Edit: Powershiiiiiiiiiiift! 
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Jul 29, 2014 16:41
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skipdogg posted:I don't understand MB's rush to go downmarket all of a sudden. There's no way they're making a quality vehicle on par with MB's standards for 31.3K. It'll be interesting to see the ramifications of decisions like this in 10 or 15 years. And yes, those fuckers will be everywhere. Here in San Antonio, home of the 30,000 dollar millionaire, C300's and CLA250's are everywhere.. they can barely keep them on the lot. Lots of GLK350's as well. To each their own, but I rather drive a Fusion Titanium than a stripped CLA. They haven't been makign quality vehicles on par with MB standards for years now, though.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:41
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Compared to other cars that are the same size as it, i.e. BMW 7 series, Porsche Panamera, Audi A8, Mercedes CL, the Challenger is at worst about the same curb weight and usually lighter. And faster. And costs 1/3 the price. Yet every time a new Challenger comes out, The Internet seems to be flabbergasted that it isn't a Miata and that's why they'll never buy one. If all these assholes actually went out and bought Miatas Mazda wouldn't constantly be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. The day that Chrysler buys Mazda outright and turns it into Dodge Asia can't come soon enough.
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Jul 29, 2014 16:56
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Throatwarbler posted:Compared to other cars that are the same size as it, i.e. BMW 7 series, Porsche Panamera, Audi A8, Mercedes CL, the Challenger is at worst about the same curb weight and usually lighter. And faster. And costs 1/3 the price. Yet every time a new Challenger comes out, The Internet seems to be flabbergasted that it isn't a Miata and that's why they'll never buy one. If all these assholes actually went out and bought Miatas Mazda wouldn't constantly be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Nobody said the challenger is supposed to be a miata. Its supposed to be the same size as a Mustang or Camaro, but those are both much smaller cars.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:04
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I'll buy a Miata the day their interiors are sized for adults.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:06
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Throatwarbler posted:The day that Chrysler buys Mazda outright and turns it into Dodge Asia can't come soon enough. Mazda makes really good cars though. FCA Mazda would make reskinned Darts.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:09
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Throatwarbler posted:Compared to other cars that are the same size as it, i.e. BMW 7 series, Porsche Panamera, Audi A8, Mercedes CL, the Challenger is at worst about the same curb weight and usually lighter. And faster. And costs 1/3 the price. Yet every time a new Challenger comes out, The Internet seems to be flabbergasted that it isn't a Miata and that's why they'll never buy one. If all these assholes actually went out and bought Miatas Mazda wouldn't constantly be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Nobody is going to cross-shop an A8 or Panamera against a Hellcat Challenger. It's nowhere near as luxurious as any of those cars; the only thing it has going for it is tons of ponies under the hood, it's (purportedly) a pony car, not a luxo-barge. And pony cars are supposed to be smallish.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:14
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I don't really get the appeal of the hellcat to be honest
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Jul 29, 2014 17:36
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I was always under the impression that the Challenger is supposed to be the last full-blown muscle car, a huge coupe with big engines that can seat 4 adults and rides comfortable enough for road trips. People lump it with the Mustang and Camaro because they're the only affordable American sports cars left. The Challenger is still more biased towards the touring side of things than sport though. If it's more than a rumor, the D segment Dodge that's being developed with Alfa will be an actual contender to the pony cars, and I don't think it would eat into its big brother's sales too much.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:41
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Powershift posted:Well, the base model GLA pricing has been announced at $31,300. This is the only CUV I've ever seen that doesn't look like a turd. It's basically a hatchback with a high beltline.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:51
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I think I'd rather do a lot of highway driving or commuting in a Challenger than a Mustang or Camaro and if I wanted a track-focused car it wouldn't be a Mustang or Camaro anyway. I totally get the Challenger even if I'd never personally buy one.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:51
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HotCanadianChick posted:Nobody is going to cross-shop an A8 or Panamera against a Hellcat Challenger. It's nowhere near as luxurious as any of those cars; the only thing it has going for it is tons of ponies under the hood, it's (purportedly) a pony car, not a luxo-barge. And pony cars are supposed to be smallish. Given the size, and platform sharing with regular volume cars like the Charger, you could argue it's a muscle car. Though honestly if they had just called the Challenger the Charger and the Charger the Coronet probably people wouldn't complain as much.
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Jul 29, 2014 17:53
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