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SpookyLizard posted:Do you mean your only opposable digit? I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this.
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Aug 1, 2014 02:36
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DStecks posted:I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this. But lots of mice have thumb buttons and almost every game will let you rebind to those. This is kind of a silly point to make because PC gear is very affordable to get pretty much whatever you need. I mean the $20 Kensington mouse I'm using now has two thumb buttons and the mouse wheel is clicky too.
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Aug 1, 2014 02:41
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DStecks posted:I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this. Sounds like you want this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Wireless-trackman-mouse.jpg
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Aug 1, 2014 02:43
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...of SCIENCE! posted:This was made so that kids with motor problems and deformed hands could play videogames, so making fun of that is kind of dick move. Is this the one that had drama with Penny Arcade?
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Aug 1, 2014 03:03
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Away all Goats posted:Sounds like you want this That's getting there, but a trackball is still a little redundant strapped to a mouse, as far as gaming goes. The ideal piece of equipment would be if that trackball was replaced with a gamepad thumbstick, something that can just be held in one direction. Of course, that could also gently caress with your ability to move the mouse, since that does use your thumb... maybe if there were little slings for your fingers to slip into? Like a glove strapped to the mouse? It would probably be the gooniest looking thing ever, but it would probably be pretty great to play any kind of shooter or RPG with. Actually, on reflection, I can't imagine it not being really weird to use. Just move your mouse around a bit, noticing how dependent you really are on your thumb to move it. With a trackpad/mouse combo, it's usually intended for CADD users, so you generally aren't using both at the same time, you just want something that can be either. Maybe if it was like a PSP slider stick, mounted directly to the side? But then moving the mouse could mess with that control. DStecks has a new favorite as of 03:41 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 03:38
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DStecks posted:Just move your mouse around a bit, noticing how dependent you really are on your thumb to move it. How do you use a mouse? My thumb just sort of rests on the side, but it makes no difference if I hold it away from the mouse. It's not involved.
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Aug 1, 2014 04:41
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Tiggum posted:How do you use a mouse? My thumb just sort of rests on the side, but it makes no difference if I hold it away from the mouse. It's not involved. Some people hold the mouse without touching it with their palm. Try holding your mouse with just the ends of your fingers and you'll find that you need your thumb to have any fidelity in your motion. 
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Aug 1, 2014 04:47
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Tiggum posted:How do you use a mouse? Exclusively with my fingertips.
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Aug 1, 2014 04:50
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Action Tortoise posted:Is this the one that had drama with Penny Arcade? IIRC, that dude was just a distributor for them or somesuch.
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Aug 1, 2014 06:54
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Dr Christmas posted:Most GameCube games had the controller's slightly non-standard face button layout in mind when designing it, so it worked out fine. However, it was awkward using them to play SNES games on the Wii's virtual console. Lots of games have you run with Y and jump with B, so you often had to stretch your thumb a long way, partly over the A button when playing Super Mario World, Super Metroid, or Donkey Kong Country. That goddamn R shoulder button is the reason I couldn't beat Metroid Prime in the end. It's not that much pressure to have to use in isolation but having to press that thing all the way down to lock onto enemies almost constantly throughout the whole game meant that by the time I reached the final areas that one knuckle was killing me. I got to the final boss and between the thing being a pain in the rear end to kill and my hand being undecided on whether to just die or something I realised it just wasn't worth it and quit. How they decided that a game so reliant on the one button needed it shoved down all the way every single time you encounter an enemy is beyond me.
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Aug 1, 2014 07:07
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DStecks posted:That's getting there, but a trackball is still a little redundant strapped to a mouse, as far as gaming goes. That is just a trackball, you know. No mouse involved.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:51
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...of SCIENCE! posted:This was made so that kids with motor problems and deformed hands could play videogames, so making fun of that is kind of dick move. http://www.avengercontroller.com/ http://www.avengercontroller.com/faq.html
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Aug 1, 2014 15:32
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DStecks posted:I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this. Except you dont use your fingers at all to control the mouse, just to hold it. Its all on your arm and wrist to move it. Unless youre one of those weirdos who use a crazy strange grip to use a mouse. Theres no substitute for mouselook.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:59
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DStecks posted:I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this. I can't believe no one for this: you have two thumbs on your right hand?!
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Aug 1, 2014 23:09
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SpookyLizard posted:Except you dont use your fingers at all to control the mouse, just to hold it. Its all on your arm and wrist to move it. Unless youre one of those weirdos who use a crazy strange grip to use a mouse. Theres no substitute for mouselook. Those weirdos are a significant portion of competetive FPS players. There's a lot more control in your fingers than your wrists and elbows. It's called a claw-style grip. It allows for rapid fine, precise movements.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:11
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Doesnt make it not weird.
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Aug 2, 2014 00:48
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SpookyLizard posted:Except you dont use your fingers at all to control the mouse, Yes, I do.
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Aug 2, 2014 01:49
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God shuttup
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Aug 2, 2014 02:55
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DStecks posted:I have two thumbs, and am right handed. Your thumbs have got the most fine control of your fingers, and K+M leaves the right thumb totally unused. Like, imagine if you had to steer your car with your elbows, and nobody questioned this. I have no idea what you're trying to argue in this thread right now, for "fine" control, a mouse is endlessly better than analog sticks, that's why RTS games only really exist on the PC (see Starcraft) and FPS games are signifigantly more easy and responsive to play on the PC. A lot of games work better on a controller because they're designed towards that end, but even something like Max Payne, a TPS, was designed with a mouse in mind and only plays competently in that context.
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Aug 2, 2014 03:15
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This derail is the worst thing. I don't care anymore. Persona 3 FES's add-on The Answer really could have done without forcing me to level grind straight out of the gate. Also not giving me a chance to refill my party's MP before the first big battle - it might have been defensible if MP-restoring items had been made available up to that point, but they weren't.
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Aug 2, 2014 03:22
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Not to contribute to that idiotic derail, but on the topic of fine control, a thing drags a lot of PC shooters down for me is mouse acceleration. I mean, is it really so hard to include an option to turn that nonsense off, even if it's just in a .cfg or .ini file? It may be great for when you're using the mouse cursor for most other things, but when playing a game that requires the kinds of mouse movements that shooters do, it just makes things so much harder than they need to be. A particularly bad example would have to be F.E.A.R. 2, since the first F.E.A.R. not only had an option to turn mouse acceleration off, it even had a slider to determine exactly how much mouse acceleration you want if you're the kind of person who actually likes mouse acceleration for some reason, but not the second one. Nope. No such options here.
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Aug 2, 2014 04:19
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Doctor Bishop posted:Not to contribute to that idiotic derail, but on the topic of fine control, a thing drags a lot of PC shooters down for me is mouse acceleration. I mean, is it really so hard to include an option to turn that nonsense off, even if it's just in a .cfg or .ini file? It may be great for when you're using the mouse cursor for most other things, but when playing a game that requires the kinds of mouse movements that shooters do, it just makes things so much harder than they need to be. A particularly bad example would have to be F.E.A.R. 2, since the first F.E.A.R. not only had an option to turn mouse acceleration off, it even had a slider to determine exactly how much mouse acceleration you want if you're the kind of person who actually likes mouse acceleration for some reason, but not the second one. Nope. No such options here. In my opinion FEAR 2 was a step backward from FEAR in essentially every respect.
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Aug 2, 2014 04:26
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Doctor Bishop posted:Not to contribute to that idiotic derail, but on the topic of fine control, a thing drags a lot of PC shooters down for me is mouse acceleration. I mean, is it really so hard to include an option to turn that nonsense off, even if it's just in a .cfg or .ini file? It may be great for when you're using the mouse cursor for most other things, but when playing a game that requires the kinds of mouse movements that shooters do, it just makes things so much harder than they need to be. A particularly bad example would have to be F.E.A.R. 2, since the first F.E.A.R. not only had an option to turn mouse acceleration off, it even had a slider to determine exactly how much mouse acceleration you want if you're the kind of person who actually likes mouse acceleration for some reason, but not the second one. Nope. No such options here. There's really no excuse at all for non-rebindable controls or bullshit like this; it's been the standard for over a decade. And honestly, I don't really get why strategy games always seem to get away with non-rebindable controls. I just want WASD camera control, damnit! 
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Aug 2, 2014 04:42
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I'm replaying Final Fantasy VII to get my old jprg nostalgia kick, and I have to say, the minigames really drag it down. Motorcycle riding, chocobo racing, snowboarding, pretty much everything has really lovely controls and isn't fun. The dialog is also super terrible.
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Aug 2, 2014 04:44
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kazil posted:I'm replaying Final Fantasy VII to get my old jprg nostalgia kick, and I have to say, the minigames really drag it down. Motorcycle riding, chocobo racing, snowboarding, pretty much everything has really lovely controls and isn't fun. I always hated the mini games. Honestly I can't think of a time I ever really liked a mini game in a JRPG. The whole Gold Saucer thing was terrible to me, I never really got any of the big items from there.
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Aug 2, 2014 04:53
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DStecks posted:And honestly, I don't really get why strategy games always seem to get away with non-rebindable controls. I just want WASD camera control, damnit! That's extremely baffling to me, yeah. Honestly one of the things I really did like about Starcraft 2 is that you could just have the hotkey bindings match their position on the HUD. I don't need to remember that the SCV hotkey is V (or whatever it is), I can just remind myself by looking at the icon grid and hit Q.
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Aug 2, 2014 05:07
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kazil posted:The dialog is also super terrible. I gave up on FF7 when I tried to play it a couple years ago when they translated the tutorial fight so badly that actually following its advice gets you killed. I've been really liking Dark Souls II, but I just came to a zone that's doing poorly in a way that I can articulate beyond 'it's unfair'. The Shrine of Amana hits a gimmick overload. Dark Souls areas usually have gimmicks to make each one a different experience in play, and that actually works pretty well; in the original, no two zones could be approached in exactly the same way because they wre all structured in ways to provide unique challenges. Dark Souls II is a bit shaky about it, but the Shine of Amana is the only time I'd directly say that they've failed. It has three unique things to it: -Waist-deep water that slows you down when you're in it. -Mutated sea beasts hiding under said water. -Spellcasters with range. All of these gimmicks actually lock together in a relatively compatible way; the water impedes your movement and makes dodging difficult, the sea monsters hide and force you to watch your step, and the spellcasters force you to keep moving and stay alert. The problem is that they compound, and all three at the same time becomes a frustrating experience with no adequate way out. You can't beeline for the spellcasters, because the water slows you down and lets the sea monsters ambush you. You can't weed out the sea monsters, because they're dangerous enough targets and in the slowing water such that the spellcasters can pick you off. And you can't keep a fast or slow enough pace to deal with the complications of the water, because it keeps you slow enough that BOTH enemies can bear down on you. If it was only two of those three gimmicks it would be fine, but with all three it becomes too much. You can't prioritize dealing with any of them, because then one of the others will get you. I know Dark Souls Chat was outlawed in the last thread, but I'm hoping that we can avoid the substance-void arguments that led to that ruling this time.
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Aug 2, 2014 05:34
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They've really gotta stop those waist-deep water levels. No one liked them in Valley of Defilement and no one liked them in Blighttown. New Super Mario Bros. U is really floaty. I've died to slippy controls more than actual enemies. StandardVC10 posted:This derail is the worst thing. I don't care anymore. I remember having a fight where I made myself immune to my opponents' elemental affinity. They proceeded to cast Almighty spells until my party wiped. They never knew Almighty spells and would never cast them if I weren't immune to their element. It was just a way to make sure I didn't exploit the game but in a really bullshit way.
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Aug 2, 2014 06:16
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Croccers posted:And now it's marketed for MLG Gamers. It's the Crossfit gasmasks of gaming controllers.
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Aug 2, 2014 06:22
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Action Tortoise posted:I remember having a fight where I made myself immune to my opponents' elemental affinity. They proceeded to cast Almighty spells until my party wiped. They never knew Almighty spells and would never cast them if I weren't immune to their element. It was just a way to make sure I didn't exploit the game but in a really bullshit way. That's vintage Atlus. Many of their superbosses in their titles have poo poo like that, naturally one would prepare with the super strong skills, but nope, YOU DIE INSTANTLY, but wait, you can use this one null skill which doesn't actually null anything, also the battle has a fuckload of hidden mechanics that nobody would ever figure out on their own.
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Aug 2, 2014 06:23
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I play basic sword-n-board characters in every game possible. Worst case scenario, you just barrel through healing items while bashing the dude in right in his wand-and-orbs, and can ignore a lot of that spergy nonsense about magic and magic resistances. Skyrim, however, is full of nonsense. Ice magic slows you down, but you can mitigate it by getting a skill that reduces elemental damage when you block. So you need to get levels into your block skill which requires you standing around like an rear end in a top hat, letting some guy pound your shield. Or you can buy it, I guess. However, if you commit yourself to being a master shieldbearer, block's final skill trivializes the game. Too bad it requires 100 Block which takes a herculean effort or a propensity to cheat to get because block levels up only when you bash dudes (which takes a shitload of stamina for almost no growth) or when you block dudes (which also requires stamina for any significant skill growth). So basically, if you want to get good at shields, let people beat you up while you chug stamina potions, because you won't get good at it otherwise. The bastards.
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Aug 2, 2014 09:16
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Action Tortoise posted:I remember having a fight where I made myself immune to my opponents' elemental affinity. They proceeded to cast Almighty spells until my party wiped. They never knew Almighty spells and would never cast them if I weren't immune to their element. It was just a way to make sure I didn't exploit the game but in a really bullshit way. SMT IV allowed you to cast Makarakarn/Tetrakarn to cheese just about every boss in the game - until the last like, six or seven bosses where suddenly they started one shotting you with almighty attacks if you tried it. It was a really lame way to break an overpowered tactic that could have been circumvented by just balancing the moves better.
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Aug 2, 2014 09:41
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Cleretic posted:I gave up on FF7 when I tried to play it a couple years ago when they translated the tutorial fight so badly that actually following its advice gets you killed. kazil posted:I'm replaying Final Fantasy VII to get my old jprg nostalgia kick, and I have to say, the minigames really drag it down. Motorcycle riding, chocobo racing, snowboarding, pretty much everything has really lovely controls and isn't fun. It's terrible and I can't stand it. Am I missing the easy option somewhere because I've seen nobody else complain about it before, or did the nostalgia set in for most before they tried optimizing stuff even a little?
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Aug 2, 2014 09:56
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Simply Simon posted:Dark Souls II really wants you to use a Bow. It's blatantly obvious in the Shrine, if you don't have a ranged option, the difficulty increases tenfold. For the love of your sanity, invest in some arrows or bolts. I'm a Sorceror, I am the ranged option. But the spellcasters in Amana have resistance to magic attacks (not magic damage, my enchanted falchion rips through them, but magic attacks) so that doesn't even loving matter either. That's something I'm finding in DSII as well; sorcery isn't crap, but the game isn't balanced in its favor at all. I played a Sorceror as my first character in DS1, too, and I found that how good that is for areas could fluctuate wildly. Certain areas were really good for a sorcery approach, others weren't. A Sorceror was never totally hosed by being all-magic in certain areas, but for every area that gave you a huge advantage by letting you take potshots there was another place that just wouldn't work out in your favor. While magic as a whole is better in DSII thanks to a few things like the magic charge-boosting herbs, hexes being in from the get-go and some spells that make up for the typical shortfalls, I find that being a full-on sorceror lands you pretty far back on the curve because of the enemy and level design. While the buffs have made it a great sidearm option, and something that gets a lot of use in PvP, areas like the Shrine of Amana that're geared against you mean that you're probably just gonna have more trouble on average.
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Aug 2, 2014 10:37
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Yeah, Amana's a terrible slog that is completely trivalized by a single weapon you're never encouraged to use again. It's such a misstep.
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Aug 2, 2014 11:04
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Have you patched your copy of DSII? In the release version, the casters were way more obnoxious. Still, just grab a crossbow, go into first person and pop in and out of cover, firing a couple of shots at a time. Once you get to the bonfire before the boss you can technically run past everything with a couple of dodge rolls.
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Aug 2, 2014 11:04
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WHAT A GOOD DOG posted:I play basic sword-n-board characters in every game possible. Worst case scenario, you just barrel through healing items while bashing the dude in right in his wand-and-orbs, and can ignore a lot of that spergy nonsense about magic and magic resistances. Go pick on some giants, blocking their attacks gets you tons of skill growth.
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Aug 2, 2014 14:32
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Simply Simon posted:It's terrible and I can't stand it. Am I missing the easy option somewhere because I've seen nobody else complain about it before, or did the nostalgia set in for most before they tried optimizing stuff even a little? I can't imagine trying to play FF7 for the first time these days. It's a good game for the era it was made, but it has not aged well at all. I think a lot of the stuff that drives you crazy is ignored because of nostalgia, yes.
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Aug 2, 2014 14:49
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kazil posted:I can't imagine trying to play FF7 for the first time these days. It's a good game for the era it was made, but it has not aged well at all. I think a lot of the stuff that drives you crazy is ignored because of nostalgia, yes. FF7's dialogue and writing in general is pretty bad and uneven by today's standards ("Let's mosey", "He are sick", etc.) but it's still better than a lot of JRPGs from that time period. If you really want to see a bad translation try playing the original Suikoden or Final Fantasy Tactics, where the word "breath" was translated as "bracelet" across the board.   Reading about the way that they did translations back in the day it's kind of amazing that most games a were even comprehensible, a lot of the time the translator just had a huge text dump and had to translate everything out of order with zero context. They did voice acting the same way, which is why Deus Ex's lines like a "A bomb!" seem so incongruous with the scene they're supposed to be in.
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Aug 2, 2014 15:02
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StandardVC10 posted:In my opinion FEAR 2 was a step backward from FEAR in essentially every respect. Every FEAR game has been poo poo since the first one. They are making it into creepy mom rape, dead psychic murder brother Call of Duty. First one was ace, though.
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