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Shaocaholica posted:I wouldn't really call it 'learning' so much as loving around with the best storage available for a given legacy platform. People still collect and fix up compact audio cassettes. It's just a vintage thing. Getting a little off topic here, but... Using U320 drives on old IRIX workstations or something, ok. But if your "legacy platform" is x86, you're better off just trashing it.
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Aug 6, 2014 17:27
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So this is what a storage hipster looks like?
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Aug 6, 2014 18:12
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BlueBlazer posted:While you guys are talking retired Enterprise storage I'd like to mention my personal VM labs run a pair of NetApp MK14's. I picked up three from my friendly recyclable about 3 years ago for about 300$. They are loaded with 300GB 15k's. Kept the third shelf for spare drives but not one has gone out on me. I run about 10~15 VM's off the setup for video server testing at any given time and it's no SSD shelf but for the price I cannot complain. What's your power bill on that? I had a few MK14s and after one several hundred dollar power bill (thanks California) I turned them all off.
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Aug 6, 2014 19:43
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madsushi posted:What's your power bill on that? I had a few MK14s and after one several hundred dollar power bill (thanks California) I turned them all off. Yea, there's no way I'd want to pay the power and cooling costs for that in a home lab environment. It's also just massive overkill for a home lab where you probably don't need a few thousand disk IOPs.
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Aug 6, 2014 20:59
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NippleFloss posted:So this is what a storage hipster looks like? spinning rust is warmer
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Aug 6, 2014 21:15
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If you want to play around with storage http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/proliant-servers/product-detail.html?oid=5379860#!tab%3Dspecs + some 2TB drives, 16GB ram, and FreeNas(or nexenta) and blammo. This thing will pump out a bunch of IOPS, fairly low power and quite
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Aug 6, 2014 21:18
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:If you want to play around with storage Meh, that will give you shared storage for your home/lab environment, but won't give you any "real world" type practice. Netapp has that their virtual appliance you can much around with so you learn their interface.
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Aug 6, 2014 21:20
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Moey posted:Meh, that will give you shared storage for your home/lab environment, but won't give you any "real world" type practice. A few vendors have virtual appliances or simulators you can play around on, but if you can get around in Nexenta or FreeNas or whatever and understand the concepts then you will do fine with NetApp or Nimble or VNX or pretty much any other storage out there. If you understand the concepts then learning a particular vendor's interpretation of them shouldn't take too long.
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Aug 6, 2014 21:25
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Moey posted:Meh, that will give you shared storage for your home/lab environment, but won't give you any "real world" type practice. Oh of course that's for home/lab. However, Nexenta actually is starting to grab a bit of the market space, dell has some appliances with nexenta running on them.
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Aug 6, 2014 21:28
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Moey posted:Netapp has that their virtual appliance you can much around with so you learn their interface.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:05
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adorai posted:I thought they got rid of that. The free simulator is still available and will remain so. ONTAP-V, which is the paid and fully supported virtual appliance, was going to be discontinued, but we unturned on that and it will be sticking around.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:24
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NippleFloss posted:The free simulator is still available and will remain so. ONTAP-V, which is the paid and fully supported virtual appliance, was going to be discontinued, but we unturned on that and it will be sticking around.
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Aug 7, 2014 00:37
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adorai posted:Funny, my netapp sales rep told me just today that there was no way to get it. If you just want to download the simulator to play with all you need is a support account that is linked to at least one controller with active entitlements. Go to the support site and search for "simulator" and the top link will be for the ONTAP simulator download page. If you want the supported ONTAP Edge product (ONTAP-V) then there are some restrictions around deal size and some other stuff, but I don't think those have gone into effect yet. It was originally slated to go EOA in Q3 of 2015, that's no longer the case.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:17
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I wish netapp had more to offer over other vendors. I mean great you do NFS well, but as more and more vendors adopt a L2ARC and spend time working with how the data is hangled. I still just look at netapp as "Yeah we do file storage". I work with netapp weekly for a local college system. It's cool they gave us what they did but wow, this thing is like dull as all get out. I'd honestly work on an MSA or MD...
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Aug 7, 2014 02:36
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NippleFloss posted:If you want the supported ONTAP Edge product (ONTAP-V) then there are some restrictions around deal size and some other stuff, but I don't think those have gone into effect yet. It was originally slated to go EOA in Q3 of 2015, that's no longer the case.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:11
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:I wish netapp had more to offer over other vendors. You're crazy. I'll take top tier storage like NetApp or EMC over anything else all day erryday. I've never used a Dell MD, but I've used MSA's, Compellant, EqualLogic, and provided the money is around I'd pick EMC and NetApp in that order. Dull as all get out to me equals 'works as intended'. I also tend to stick to vendors that are going to be around in years to come, some of the new poo poo seems neat, but I need guarantees that the company will still be around in 4 years to support our org.
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Aug 7, 2014 05:58
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:I wish netapp had more to offer over other vendors. What does this mean? What is your point about read caching? What is an example of advanced data handling that you think is innovative? We're about 50/50 block and file in the field, as well.
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Aug 7, 2014 06:35
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I love loving around with my storage all day because it makes me feel superior. Why would you want something simple to setup? Pleebs. Ugh.
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Aug 7, 2014 12:28
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adorai posted:We were really looking for something like a 90 day demo. Basically we were looking for a way to temporarily snapmirror to our 2050 from a cdot filer while we rebuilt our 3240 from 7 mode to cdot. Running the virtual appliance (or two of them) seemed like the path of least resistance. Everytime I've needed something like this our VAR/NetApp was always able to just throw some loaner heads our way.
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Aug 7, 2014 16:57
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adorai posted:We were really looking for something like a 90 day demo. Basically we were looking for a way to temporarily snapmirror to our 2050 from a cdot filer while we rebuilt our 3240 from 7 mode to cdot. Running the virtual appliance (or two of them) seemed like the path of least resistance. I actually don't know if snapmirror will work between the simulator and a physical controller, but since ONTAP Edge is basically a cleaned up and supported version of the simulator it should work. Certainly worth a shot.
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Aug 7, 2014 17:20
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What are yous guys thoughts on companies (size/industry/management/etc) that either need enterprise storage solutions but are using SMB/consumer or the other way around where enterprise storage is implemented but not really needed?
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Aug 7, 2014 18:10
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Buy the best solution available within your requirements and budget? Not sure what you're asking.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:32
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Docjowles posted:Buy the best solution available within your requirements and budget? Not sure what you're asking. I mean, how often do you guys come across solutions that are outside requirements and budget and on what ways?
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Aug 7, 2014 18:37
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Shaocaholica posted:I mean, how often do you guys come across solutions that are outside requirements and budget and on what ways? Often. 99% are undersized.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:43
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Shaocaholica posted:What are yous guys thoughts on companies (size/industry/management/etc) that either need enterprise storage solutions but are using SMB/consumer or the other way around where enterprise storage is implemented but not really needed? My old places solution (my old boss was a bit out there) was to buy the high end QNAP boxes and fill them with consumer hdd/sdd. The boxes would randomly lock up in the middle of the day. Get an enterprise solution, even entry level is 10x better then prosumer/smb stuff.
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Aug 7, 2014 18:53
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Can't say I've ever worked someplace that had storage that was "too good"  I guess the closest would actually be my current employer, but it's more due to a shift in our market trends. We host photos, and 10 years ago your average consumer phone had the shittiest camera known to man. The application was architected around serving these dinky 150kb images at full size directly off expensive, high-speed NetApp filers. Even hundreds of millions of photos didn't require much storage space in absolute terabyte terms. Fast forward to today, and the profile of what people are uploading has totally changed. A single photo can be tens of megs even from a low-end smartphone. We still want to store that original copy, but actually serve a resized thumbnail 99% of the time. Storing the original on 15k SAS is wildly inefficient since it's just a rarely-accessed archive copy. So now we're looking at cheap bulk storage for the originals (which represent the vast majority of our storage ingest over the last few years), and getting rid of most of our expensive high-performance gear as it comes out of maintenance. So yeah, I guess for the next year or so we could be considered overbuilt but it's not because someone duped us into dropping millions on shared storage for a 3 node VMware cluster.Mostly what I see is what Moey wrote. Companies cheaping out and buying piece of crap QNAP or Synology devices. Or even worse, rolling your own totally unsupported storage on top of DRBD or something. Which just makes me shake my head since in most cases, the data you're storing literally is the business. If it's lost, you're out on the street. Can't spend $20k on that entry level EqualLogic, but by god we'll have 4x of the fastest CPU's and maxed out RAM in our VM hosts (running 8 guests) because BIG NUMBERS 
Docjowles fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 19:31
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 Whats up with this Dell SCSI cable that has no termination? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1H666-Dell-Round-SCSI-Cable-68P-for-PowerEdge-6650-/131253447627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e8f50abcb
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Aug 8, 2014 21:29
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The terminator would probably be built into the backplane
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Aug 8, 2014 23:11
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theperminator posted:The terminator would probably be built into the backplane Ah so basically this kind of 2 connector cable is really only used for connecting a backplane to a HBA?
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Aug 8, 2014 23:54
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Shaocaholica posted:Ah so basically this kind of 2 connector cable is really only used for connecting a backplane to a HBA?  Essentially yes, it would probably connect to the top connector on the riser card as above. Anything actually using SCSI internally is ancient as poo poo at this point though.
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Aug 9, 2014 00:03
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Zephirus posted:Anything actually using SCSI internally is ancient as poo poo at this point though. Ofcourse
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Aug 9, 2014 01:44
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NippleFloss posted:What does this mean? What is your point about read caching? What is an example of advanced data handling that you think is innovative? We're about 50/50 block and file in the field, as well. All the NetApp people in my area are really loving lame when in comes to handling data. I mean as flash becomes more and more common, it's not so much "how much I/O can you push", but what can you do with the data once I push it to the array. Maybe the NetApp people are just not great in my area, but Looking at things like Nimble, Pure, ExtremIO, and Violin. They all work on manupulating data and effectively getting the most out of the space and storage. I just haven't researched it that much but it seems like NetApp has fallen behind a bit; could be just me of course
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Aug 9, 2014 01:51
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:All the NetApp people in my area are really loving lame when in comes to handling data. I mean as flash becomes more and more common, it's not so much "how much I/O can you push", but what can you do with the data once I push it to the array. What I'm asking is what you specifically mean when you say "They all work on manupulating data and effectively getting the most out of the space and storage." Give me some examples of some things that these vendors are doing with their storage architecture that you find impressive. ExtremeIO is pretty different from the ground up, but Nimble and Pure are very similar, design wise, to what WAFL and ONTAP have been doing for 10 years, so I'm just wondering what's missing.
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Aug 9, 2014 03:34
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NippleFloss posted:What I'm asking is what you specifically mean when you say "They all work on manupulating data and effectively getting the most out of the space and storage." Give me some examples of some things that these vendors are doing with their storage architecture that you find impressive. ExtremeIO is pretty different from the ground up, but Nimble and Pure are very similar, design wise, to what WAFL and ONTAP have been doing for 10 years, so I'm just wondering what's missing. I have never heard NetApp doing the following or working on improving(if they are please let me know!); Inline Dedupe Inline compression nearing Nimble or Oracle or such levels 0 write copy from template Post processing read and write Post processed iSCSI Direct metro -snip- The fact netapp seems the need to license ever loving feature when dell/hp/EMC include it Helping fix their lovely rear end interface, this could be just the fas 2240 I work with; but man is it poo poo compared to dell, nexenta(free!), or unisphere.... Could probably go on but these are the major ones. I mean what I am looking bakes to EmtremIO, Pure, and Nimble/Oracle. NetApp just does not have much to offer aside from great NFS on spindles. Also what the gently caress is NetApp's answer to ExtremIO, because all I can find is "ALL FLASH ARRAY! IT'S ALL FLASH!" Dilbert As FUCK fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 03:47
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:I have never heard NetApp doing the following or working on improving(if they are please let me know!); Inline dedupe will probably never happen because the benefits over post process aren't worth the investment in engineering resources for us. Pure has it but will throttle back to post process under heavy load to avoid impacting latency. Nimble and XIO don't do dedupe at all. Inline compression exists now, alongside post process compression. It's enabled at the volume level and can work alongside dedupe. I assume you mean thin cloning (I.e. Reduplicate) and we've done this for years and can do it at the volume, LUN, or individual file level from either live data or snapshots. This is how we can create thousands of cloned VDI desktops in just minutes, for instance. What in the world do you mean when you say "post processing reads and writes" and "post prices send iSCSI." I honestly don't know what this is referencing. I assume this is about metro level geographically dispersed clustering? Clarify and I'll discuss. What interface do you use to manage it? I use the CLI exclusively and it's merely okay. The CDOT CLI is better. System Manager is fine. Nothing special but not awful either. Why does NetApp need an answer to ExtemeIO. Or, more specifically, what is ExtemeIO the answer to? What market does it service, what niche does it fill? Trying to answer a competitor is pointless, there are too many of them. So far the appeal seems to be that it's pretty fast, but then so is anything loaded with flash, even FAS.
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Aug 9, 2014 04:33
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NippleFloss posted:Inline dedupe will probably never happen because the benefits over post process aren't worth the investment in engineering resources for us. Pure has it but will throttle back to post process under heavy load to avoid impacting latency. Nimble and XIO don't do dedupe at all. quote:Inline compression exists now, alongside post process compression. It's enabled at the volume level and can work alongside dedupe. quote:I assume you mean thin cloning (I.e. Reduplicate) and we've done this for years and can do it at the volume, LUN, or individual file level from either live data or snapshots. This is how we can create thousands of cloned VDI desktops in just minutes, for instance. [quote] quote:I assume this is about metro level geographically dispersed clustering? Clarify and I'll discuss. quote:What interface do you use to manage it? I use the CLI exclusively and it's merely okay. The CDOT CLI is better. System Manager is fine. Nothing special but not awful either. quote:Why does NetApp need an answer to ExtemeIO. Or, more specifically, what is ExtemeIO the answer to? What market does it service, what niche does it fill? Trying to answer a competitor is pointless, there are too many of them. So far the appeal seems to be that it's pretty fast, but then so is anything loaded with flash, even FAS. It's not about answering to a specific vendor I just used XIO as an example because NetApp is wanting to give EMC a run for the money in flash based storage. I mean wow, how many people are doing all flash manipulation and hybrid arrays on features that I just don't ever hear about in NetApp? I mean I like netapp don't get me wrong, solid controllers, and to someone who likes a base web interface, it is great. But I just don't see much to what it has to offer in the way of data handling, storage utilization or inivation to other vendors... Oh gently caress my thumbs hurt I need off this tablet. Dilbert As FUCK fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 05:03
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Dilbert As gently caress posted:
NetApp's been doing this at least since 2007 (probably longer). It's basically old at at this point and I'm shocked more storage doesn't do this today. Regarding licensing: someone hasn't priced out a VMAX!
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Aug 9, 2014 05:33
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1000101 posted:NetApp's been doing this at least since 2007 (probably longer). It's basically old at at this point and I'm shocked more storage doesn't do this today. Fair enough, to be perfectly fair I only have dealt with two dedicated NetApp setups where I have worked on for a lengthy period of time, and I am more than willing to admit I am wrong on this. As for VMAX, EMC is itchy to erode that NetApp market place... They are suprisingly flexible, still pricey but willing to bend. Dilbert As FUCK fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 05:35
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1000101 posted:NetApp's been doing this at least since 2007 (probably longer). It's basically old at at this point and I'm shocked more storage doesn't do this today. I honestly don't get the DAF comment about what you do with the data. There is far more poo poo that a netapp does with your data than oracle or nimble. The tools are light years ahead too.
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Aug 9, 2014 06:04
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adorai posted:The thing is you have to consider the fact that it actually sucks for most workloads on netapp. Compared to Nimble or Oracle, it's not even in the same ballpark. Dedupe however is pretty nice and makes up for the compression thing. How can you compress, dedupe, work the data into something that saves space and IO, replicate, and provide availability. Just because you reach fast IO doesn't mean you did everything you can with data.
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Aug 9, 2014 06:09
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