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beefy miracle 
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Aug 12, 2014 16:15
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baiting nbsd so hard a trapper covets
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Aug 12, 2014 16:16
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memfd syscalls getting merged, kernel secure rng syscalls also getting merged (a memfd is a chunk of shared memory with an fd attached to it, as the name implies. the fd lets you pass the shm around more neatly using IPC. it can also be "sealed" to irreversibly make it read-only, which is useful when your're using this mechanism for IPC with an untrusted process) so much for ~*everything is a file*~ (except when it is nothing like a file and just gets awkwardly crowbarred into the metaphor with implied semantics everywhere). perhaps one day we can get rid of /proc and /sys too and kill this garbage for good (/dev is never ever going away)
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Aug 12, 2014 18:17
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please let me make an effortpost about "everything is a file", i have so much to say about this subject
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Aug 12, 2014 18:24
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A file is a really cool data structure: a stream of continuous bytes, of variable size. Files are stored in filesystems, which have a hierarchical directory structure. It beats the crap out of the days when you had to statically allocate records of data and keep track of that, because there was no "filesystem" layer providing some virtual mapping between your storage medium and the locations of files. This was why "Everything Is Just A File" became a meme and a big selling point: it took the programmers at the time a long time to adjust to the reality that they didn't need to be concerned with the storage medium, the layout of it, "records" or anything like that. The unfortunate part is that a "a stream of continuous bytes, of variable size" is not a data structure that is suitable for everything. A quite large amount of things. But it shouldn't be discounted forever.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:32
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Suspicious Dish posted:A file is a really cool data structure: a stream of continuous bytes, of variable size. Files are stored in filesystems, which have a hierarchical directory structure. It beats the crap out of the days when you had to statically allocate records of data and keep track of that, because there was no "filesystem" layer providing some virtual mapping between your storage medium and the locations of files. well, they are streams of bytes that appear to be continuous, i mean sparse files are pretty great for certain things
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Aug 12, 2014 18:35
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it turns out bytestreams are pretty universal
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Aug 12, 2014 18:36
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the filesystem metaphor, not really
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Aug 12, 2014 18:36
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but it fits in many places and is not a bad thing /proc is ok honestly, the alternative is a bunch of kernel syscalls and that's just awful given that C has no namespaces so using the filesystem as a namespacing thing is probably all its good for
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Aug 12, 2014 18:39
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Mr Dog posted:memfd syscalls getting merged, kernel secure rng syscalls also getting merged perhaps u would like WinNT,mr dog, it decided to go the way of constructing APIs for everything
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Aug 12, 2014 18:40
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Yes, and good APIs make great systems. I would much prefer a struct and syscall API over a kludge code that parses /proc/meminfo. I would love it if there was a way to programmatically add a user to a system besides forking out to useradd (adduser on Debian, because Debian policy dictates you need to use this Debian script that doesn't exist on any other system). /proc and /proc/sys are a mix of system information designed for admins, APIs for developers, and configurable settings, with no thought put towards organizing or separating it. If you aren't careful, you can easily end up in the bad part of town and mess with something you shouldn't have.
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Aug 12, 2014 19:22
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Malcolm XML posted:it turns out bytestreams are pretty universal So universal that we bypass them entirely for device nodes and use a side-channel called "ioctl"s instead!
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Aug 12, 2014 19:23
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Suspicious Dish posted:So universal that we bypass them entirely for device nodes and use a side-channel called "ioctl"s instead! yeah and it sucks. ioctls are awful sure i want a loosely typed api that i can easily gently caress up over writing bits to various pseudo-files, sure thats a great idea. it;s a dumping ground for various crap
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Aug 12, 2014 21:02
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Suspicious Dish posted:Yes, and good APIs make great systems. I would much prefer a struct and syscall API over a kludge code that parses /proc/meminfo. I would love it if there was a way to programmatically add a user to a system besides forking out to useradd (adduser on Debian, because Debian policy dictates you need to use this Debian script that doesn't exist on any other system). this is orthogonal to pseudo file systems being the interface, honestly: it's very easy to write an awful ioctl api like the whole poo poo with "rest-y" api's: it's bad but the alternative is worse
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Aug 12, 2014 21:04
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Progressive JPEG posted:oh and lts releases as has been discussed like five times in this thread, the ubuntu lts releases only "support" the canonical core. i.e. not any of the packages you actually installed ubuntu to get. as soon as you enable universe/multiverse your ubuntu box is an unmaintainable shitshow, defeating the purpose of the lts release. Progressive JPEG posted:not this where its entirely ocd childe tier: rhel has "software collections," where you get a bunch of non-ancient packages installed into /opt. some are 1st party and fully supported by red hat. all the important languages are available as 1st party software collections, supported by red hat. the problem is that even the 1st party SCLs are only supported for a short period. i want to say two years? i forget. your base OS might have a ten year lifecycle but that doesn't help very much if you have to upgrade your python runtime and libraries every two years. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 21:06
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oh yeah here is the actual list of stuff red hat will support for you https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Software_Collections/1/html-single/1.1_Release_Notes/index.html#tabl-RHSCL-Components perl516 (Perl 5.16.3) php54 (PHP 5.4.16) php55 (PHP 5.5.6) python27 (Python 2.7.5) python33 (Python 3.3.2) ruby193 (Ruby 1.9.3 [a]) ruby200 (Ruby 2.0.0) ror40 (Ruby on Rails 4.0.2[a]) mariadb55 (MariaDB 5.5.37) mongodb24 (MongoDB 2.4.9 [b]) mysql55 (MySQL 5.5.37) postgresql92 (PostgreSQL 9.2.8) nodejs010 (Node.js 0.10[b] [c]) nginx14 (nginx 1.4.4 [d]) httpd24 (Apache httpd 2.4.6) thermostat1 (Thermostat 1) it still ain't exactly debian sid for breadth of availability, but most of the major things that would be a pain in your rear end going to prod are here: python 3, python 2.7, ruby 2.x, recent databases
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Aug 12, 2014 21:32
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Malcolm XML posted:sure i want a loosely typed api that i can easily gently caress up over writing bits to various pseudo-files, sure thats a great idea. Yes, as I said in the last post, I hate streams of bytes APIs and /proc too.
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Aug 12, 2014 21:36
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Suspicious Dish posted:Yes, as I said in the last post, I hate streams of bytes APIs and /proc too. we are at an impasse personally open/write/close is nicer than open/ioctl(fd,MAGIC_NUMBER_LOL,data)/close and friends but i guess if u rly hate urself.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:28
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Progressive JPEG posted:oh and lts releases now do 1 for windows
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Aug 12, 2014 23:38
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Malcolm XML posted:we are at an impasse hint: there is no difference between passing a struct to write and passing a struct ioctl well, except for how you can do multiple partial writes. except when you can't.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:39
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Bloody posted:now do 1 for windows best i can steal: 
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Aug 13, 2014 01:52
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Bloody posted:now do 1 for windows windows, like rhel and solaris, is supported for ten years it would just look like a rainbow flag because the bars would be so long
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Aug 13, 2014 02:17
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only ten? i bet you can still buy support contracts for 3.1
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Aug 13, 2014 03:36
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Bloody posted:only ten? i bet you can still buy support contracts for 3.1 with the major vendors you're guaranteed to get ten-ish years right off the top on the standard pricing. if you want to ask them extra nice to do more, they will i'd bet you can still buy solaris 2.6 patches from oracle if you have deep enough pockets.
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Aug 13, 2014 04:56
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wikipedia had a chart of sun's support policies from back in the day so i'm gonna repost that here you can definitely see when microsoft and red hat started offering long term support, because solaris 8 / 9 get crazy long lifecycles compared to their predecessors 
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Aug 13, 2014 04:59
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ii oh el posted:best i can steal: why would you have a product where the name is abbreviated as "wince"?
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Aug 13, 2014 11:44
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So I installed the Suse Linux on my computer. I use Gnome. KDE is faster but looks like cluttered poo poo. Pro: - Looks okay once you edit the fonts and reactivate the window buttons - usability is okay - installed my computing and editor stuff very quickly - relatively stable - two finger scrolling works perfectly out of the box Contra: - Can not play mp3s or mkvs - LOL. Finding and installing codecs features in the media players does not work. Installing external codec bundle only works for two of the seven or so media players I installed. Welcome to 1990 - Once you pull the bluetooth bundle (audio) and plug it back in, you have to restart the machine to make bluetooth work again. Holy moly - some piece of poo poo programs randomly do not work and require a parallel "make" type install because they refuse to work with this or that default package. Like if you have the audacity to set python3 as default then half the poo poo doesn't work anymore. Good! - Gnome is actually really terrible if you think about it, why do I have to click on "Activities" and get this slow rear end poo poo menu to switch to any programs. And then you have this concept of using different "screens", but alt-tab doesn't integrate in this at all. Great! - Gnome is much slower than KDE, when the gently caress did this happen? - Scrolling in the activities menu is by default unusable because it scrolls three times as fast as any other scrolling in Gnome. I mean it's just an integral part of the UI, why bother making it work, right? - The poo poo you need to go through to add an icon to the activities menu shows that Linux will never be a desktop OS. Well you can install this app of course, but out of the box it's either "don't do it" or "try a lot of console poo poo" - The login screen crashes often - Lol if you try to mount a Windows 8 hard drive, because you can only do it read only, the onboard tools of Gnome will of course just fail without comment, as is customary - Double clicking on a file in the file manager to open a program works half of the time, often just nothing happens - By default the standard programs like the video player, music player or viewers are able to display exactly zero percent of my files because they are not encoded in some bespoke free-sofrtware format from ten years ago that nobody ever used - The packages offered by Suse do not include most good programs one would actually use, making this poo poo essentially useless, since you are make-installing half of the things anyway - The pdf viewer is the biggest sack of poo poo - Who the gently caress uses a dedicated lovely mail program and why is it integrated in every single thing Edit: - And it's actually slower than Win8 ?!?! Yeah overall A+ performance guys, I have no idea why people prefer to use the Apple or the Windows. No idea. Boner Slam fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 13:20
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Boner Slam posted:So I installed the Suse Linux on my computer. I use Gnome. KDE is faster but looks like cluttered poo poo. source ur quotes
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Aug 13, 2014 13:52
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:wikipedia had a chart of sun's support policies from back in the day so i'm gonna repost that here Find one for Java, Oracle still support pretty much all versions at premium.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:47
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Boner Slam posted:- Can not play mp3s or mkvs - LOL. Finding and installing codecs features in the media players does not work. Installing external codec bundle only works for two of the seven or so media players I installed. Welcome to 1990 Most codecs are patent-encumbered, and SuSE doesn't license them to ship them out of the box, and they consider it a legal risk to ship them as packages. This is something I desperately want to fix, but legal refused. This is one of the reasons I'm leaving Red Hat: an inability to fix broken poo poo like this. Boner Slam posted:- Once you pull the bluetooth bundle (audio) and plug it back in, you have to restart the machine to make bluetooth work again. Holy moly What is your hardware? I just hotplugged a bluetooth USB dongle over here fine. Is there anything in the journal? Do it, make it fail, and then run journalctl -b -e. Boner Slam posted:- Gnome is much slower than KDE, when the gently caress did this happen? What's your GPU, and what monitor sizes are you outputting to? We're always looking at performance, but need to know what equipment to test with. Boner Slam posted:- Scrolling in the activities menu is by default unusable because it scrolls three times as fast as any other scrolling in Gnome. I mean it's just an integral part of the UI, why bother making it work, right? I don't like the paging either. I don't work on that part of the UI, though. Boner Slam posted:- The poo poo you need to go through to add an icon to the activities menu shows that Linux will never be a desktop OS. Well you can install this app of course, but out of the box it's either "don't do it" or "try a lot of console poo poo" Software is how you install apps. Boner Slam posted:- The login screen crashes often This is something I broke, sorry. If it's any consolation, I fixed it in the latest stable release. What is SuSE shipping with? Boner Slam posted:- Lol if you try to mount a Windows 8 hard drive, because you can only do it read only, the onboard tools of Gnome will of course just fail without comment, as is customary Works for me here. Anything in the journal? Boner Slam posted:- Double clicking on a file in the file manager to open a program works half of the time, often just nothing happens Again, works for me here. Anything in the journal? Boner Slam posted:- The packages offered by Suse do not include most good programs one would actually use, making this poo poo essentially useless, since you are make-installing half of the things anyway Welcome to Linux packaging: your community is built up of volunteers that could be doing stuff automated by a robot, so you don't get all the packages in the world and they're slow at updating. And you can't replace them with a robot, because then you'd have no community. Boner Slam posted:- The pdf viewer is the biggest sack of poo poo :agree:
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Aug 13, 2014 14:59
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Boner Slam posted:So I installed the Suse Linux on my computer. I use Gnome. KDE is faster but looks like cluttered poo poo. lol suse and gnome
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Aug 13, 2014 15:15
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also lol at choosing a desktop environment based on how the initial screen looks, then complaining that your choice sucks gee i wonder why you didn't get the best outcome
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Aug 13, 2014 15:16
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:also lol at choosing a desktop environment based on how the initial screen looks, then complaining that your choice sucks because linux is trash?
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Aug 13, 2014 15:33
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Suspicious Dish posted:Most codecs are patent-encumbered, and SuSE doesn't license them to ship them out of the box, and they consider it a legal risk to ship them as packages. This is something I desperately want to fix, but legal refused. This is one of the reasons I'm leaving Red Hat: an inability to fix broken poo poo like this.
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Aug 13, 2014 16:23
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Boner Slam posted:Suse Linux found your problem
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Aug 13, 2014 16:26
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i'm just going to leave this here for suspicious dish
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Aug 13, 2014 16:36
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i'm just going to leave this here for suspicious dish wish itd eat alsa and cups
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Aug 13, 2014 16:49
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:i'm just going to leave this here for suspicious dish Yes, we're consolidating all the things that start a bunch of process (init, cron, at, dbus, udev, gnome-session) into one system with one codebase. Because doing it right once is a lot easier than doing it wrong 6 times over. It did not eat login, ACPI (how could it?), PAM (though I wish it would), audit, cryptsetup, getty, or cgroups.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:10
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I mean, if you want systemd conspiracy, why not try today's LKML? https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 Starts off with a beautiful "We are INTJ" piece, contains the quote "init was simple and robust", and then ends with a call to arms: quote:Gnome. The Linux Foundation. freedesktop.org, and others. These are all The Linux Foundation? Who are these people anyway? What are their agendas? It's impossible to know.
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Aug 13, 2014 17:13
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i like systemd, but the linux ecosystem has gone all-in on systemd at a very early stage, and if it all goes tits up then it will inflict grievous harm on linux's credibility as a platform for doing any sort of serious work on. both gnome and kde have also screwed the pooch repeatedly, to the extent that cadt was coined to describe this clusterfuck and it continues to be a problem. pulseaudio also caused a lot of harm, irrespective of the fact that it was ubuntu that hosed everything up. source: mr dog
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Aug 13, 2014 18:20
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