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Japanese Dating Sim
Nov 12, 2003

hehe
Lipstick Apathy

orange sky posted:

Oh. My bad.

No problem, I doubt many of these things are circulating? It's such a weird design.

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orange sky
May 7, 2007

Japanese Dating Sim posted:

No problem, I doubt many of these things are circulating? It's such a weird design.

The price tag is ridiculous, too.

http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/mac-pro

6-Core and Dual GPU
3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor
16GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory
Dual AMD FirePro D500 with 3GB GDDR5 VRAM each
256GB PCIe-based flash storage1
$3,999.00

For gently caress's sake, Apple.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

Japanese Dating Sim posted:

No problem, I doubt many of these things are circulating? It's such a weird design.
I agree it's weird, but when you look into it, it actually makes sense. The biggest problem is stacking them up in a recycle pile 5 years from now.

lol who am I kidding, the kind of person who buys one of these will probably replace it with next years model.

J
Jun 10, 2001

How much depth is in the top opening of one of those things? How many of them will be ruined when someone thinks it's a trash can and throws a drink in it? :v:

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Apple's high-end desktops have always been extraordinarily expensive. I think - a decade ago - there was a lot of graphic design software that was only available or simply worked better on OS X but I don't think that's the case any longer.

The rest of Apple's hardware line is pretty solid otherwise...

georgesil
Aug 14, 2014

orange sky posted:

The price tag is ridiculous, too.

http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/mac-pro

6-Core and Dual GPU
3.5GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5 processor
16GB 1866MHz DDR3 ECC memory
Dual AMD FirePro D500 with 3GB GDDR5 VRAM each
256GB PCIe-based flash storage1
$3,999.00

For gently caress's sake, Apple.

I wonder what kind of rocket you can buy with that amount in the States, here in Europe where prices are bigger you can get last gen I7 and some other far cooler than Apple's poo poo. (true it's not that smooth looking but who needs that?...)

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
The cooling system is pretty innovative, but since it works with exactly zero current rack formfactors it's sort of useless outside of something to keep your art department from constantly bitching about being persecuted for their computing beliefs.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair

psydude posted:

The cooling system is pretty innovative, but since it works with exactly zero current rack formfactors it's sort of useless outside of something to keep your art department from constantly bitching about being persecuted for their computing beliefs.

Of course, Apple monitors don't match the finish on the Pro, so they'll complain anyway.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend
Since this comes up a lot, the Mac Pro is not a desktop, and really shouldn't be considered as one. I am not going to stand here and fight for the Trash Bin Pro, but its using server hardware, and a comparable Dell Precision or HP Workstation will cost roughly the same.

HP Z620
Xeon E5-1650v2 (matches MacPro)
2x FirePro V3900 (Likely underpowered compared to the MacPro)
16GB DDR3-1866 ECC
256GB PCI-E SSD

$4047

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
Well that's basically my point: it's a server that's kind of useless anywhere outside of your art or graphics department because it won't fit in your rack. So I guess you can awkwardly sit it on top or maybe on a workbench where it will inevitably be knocked over by the delivery guy dropping off a bunch of HPs.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

mayodreams posted:

Since this comes up a lot, the Mac Pro is not a desktop, and really shouldn't be considered as one. I am not going to stand here and fight for the Trash Bin Pro, but its using server hardware, and a comparable Dell Precision or HP Workstation will cost roughly the same.

HP Z620
Xeon E5-1650v2 (matches MacPro)
2x FirePro V3900 (Likely underpowered compared to the MacPro)
16GB DDR3-1866 ECC
256GB PCI-E SSD

$4047
I liked this argument with the old Mac Pro, which was, y'know, actually a workstation with removable memory trays, dual sockets, easily-swappable drives, etc.

It's still competing in workstation space, it just doesn't belong anymore, and it's ludicrously overpriced given the design.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


I do struggle to see the point of it when rackmount workstations with remote keyboard/mouse/display exist if you really don't want to have a computer on show. You'll need a server room for the storage anyway, and a pricey 10Gb Thunderbolt adaptor.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend
I am not vouching for the usability or practicality of it. I think the design is loving terrible and a giant gently caress you to what few pro users are left after the Final Cut Pro X debacle and the Mac Pro sitting idle for 3 years, and who use really expensive PCI-E devices and now have to spend $1k+ on an enclosure.

My point is that yes, it is $4k, but it's not like there is a $1000 Apple tax on it. Everyone bitches about the Apple Tax, but it really doesn't exist anymore.

I'd love nothing more than for Apple to relax their stance on running OS X on a hypervisors, and allow it to run on ESXi on non-Apple hardware. It is not like they are selling poo poo loads of Mac Mini Servers, and the benefits would be much greater to running OS X and iOS in the enterprise.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


mayodreams posted:

I'd love nothing more than for Apple to relax their stance on running OS X on a hypervisors, and allow it to run on ESXi on non-Apple hardware. It is not like they are selling poo poo loads of Mac Mini Servers, and the benefits would be much greater to running OS X and iOS in the enterprise.

I think it's weird how OS X is presented as an OS option in vSphere/Esxi... Does it even work?

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend

Tab8715 posted:

I think it's weird how OS X is presented as an OS option in vSphere/Esxi... Does it even work?

Absolutely. If you use the ESXi unlocker tool, it works great if you aren't using vCenter. The more recent versions of the unlocker tool work better with vCenter, but it's not great.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

mayodreams posted:

My point is that yes, it is $4k, but it's not like there is a $1000 Apple tax on it. Everyone bitches about the Apple Tax, but it really doesn't exist anymore.

This is sort of my point. The old Pro played in workstation space, and it was comparable to precisions, oracle workstations, HP Zxxx, and debatably aix workstations (definitely intellistations).

But Xeons and ECC are a lot more commonplace than they were. The e5 is a little more exotic, and they're workstation GPUs, but there's probably a $1500 tax on a box that is, essentially, throwaway. Workstations are worth it for expandability, not just having server-grade hardware. Go look at the internal design of z620. The old Mac Pro was in the same class and deserved the premium. The new one is not.

The Apple tax does not exist on their laptops or iMacs, and not really on minis (they could be cheaper). It is 100% in force on mobile hardware. And it's there on the new Pro.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
crossposting from the thread i made since no one seems to want to answer there

I've just recently finished my community college course and should be getting my Associates in about a month. I want to start off as a help desk and work my way up to Network/server Admin, but a majority of those jobs require a Bachelors. Now here's the thing: A great majority of the Network Admin jobs I see out there ask for a Bachelors in CS instead of C I S. The Comp. Science course at the college I have my eyes set on looks tough, but I'll power on through it if I have to

Casull
Aug 13, 2005

:catstare: :catstare: :catstare:

mayodreams posted:

Absolutely. If you use the ESXi unlocker tool, it works great if you aren't using vCenter. The more recent versions of the unlocker tool work better with vCenter, but it's not great.

Alternatively, it works fine with vCenter if you install ESXi on Apple hardware; we got it working on a Mac Mini here loaded with RAM. It's pretty amazing how well it works, all things considered.

Too bad the guy who set it up didn't loving bother documenting any of it other than its existence. If it was such a pain in the rear end to get it set up why didn't you post some brief pointers on our internal wiki?

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug

Race Realists posted:

crossposting from the thread i made since no one seems to want to answer there

I've just recently finished my community college course and should be getting my Associates in about a month. I want to start off as a help desk and work my way up to Network/server Admin, but a majority of those jobs require a Bachelors. Now here's the thing: A great majority of the Network Admin jobs I see out there ask for a Bachelors in CS instead of C I S. The Comp. Science course at the college I have my eyes set on looks tough, but I'll power on through it if I have to

Here are a few things to do:

Network, with some professors. Generally CC's are good places for finding talent and employers love CC's as they don't have to pay lease space for job fairs. Your CC should have some
Change focus on your searches, indeed/dice/etc are nice but Craigslist is surprisingly good. Also realize that job postings are HR wishlists, they do not always reflect what they want; it's a pre filter of things they would "like to have".
Promote yourself, list things and accomplishments. Any internships, certs, etc are notable. List them at every chance you get.
Don't set your goals too high, IT positions that pay high want experienced people. If you have 0 experience you may want to just work something to build your resume, IE Helpdesk, MSP, or VAR. It sucks but you gotta build some resume; if you don't have any internship or prior experience.


IT is a strange beast to get into, just remember you need to start somewhere. The start is not always pretty but fight for what you want and you'll get there.

Tab8715 posted:

I think it's weird how OS X is presented as an OS option in vSphere/Esxi... Does it even work?

With Oracles extention pack you can boot OSX to a VMDK, install it, open in workstation( and upload to esxi) and wammo done. The hardest part is the isntall, after that osx runs fine.

Dilbert As FUCK fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Aug 15, 2014

J
Jun 10, 2001

Race Realists posted:

crossposting from the thread i made since no one seems to want to answer there

I've just recently finished my community college course and should be getting my Associates in about a month. I want to start off as a help desk and work my way up to Network/server Admin, but a majority of those jobs require a Bachelors. Now here's the thing: A great majority of the Network Admin jobs I see out there ask for a Bachelors in CS instead of C I S. The Comp. Science course at the college I have my eyes set on looks tough, but I'll power on through it if I have to

Always remember that job requirements on a posting are generally a wishlist - you don't have to hit 100% of the checkboxes on their list. Get your foot in the door somewhere, it's common to get started on the helpdesk. Wherever you end up, once you get a bit of a feel for the workplace and what you have access to, try to get to know some of the admins there. This varies from place to place but some of those guys might be getting tasked with stupid bullshit that you may be able to help them with. If you can demonstrate that you are willing to learn and not a huge risk of destroying anything you get in contact with, you might be able to get them to show you the ropes on some of the stuff you're more interested in.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
Thank you guys. I've decided in the future to go to a four year college. In terms of Bachelors should I go for computer science or computer information systems? I heard Georgia State University is one of the best in the country for Bachelors based on Tech

BornAPoorBlkChild fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Aug 15, 2014

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug

Race Realists posted:

Thank you guys. I've decided in the future to go to a four year college. In terms of Bachelors should I go for computer science or computer information systems? I heard Georgia State University is one of the best in the country for Bachelors based on Tech

Uhh, If your in the south Dell has some awesome openings around Georgia. I mean what qualifications and expirence do you have over a degree? Seriously, A degree may get you in the door but it is the experience and knowledge that will sell your value to the employer.

jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


Race Realists posted:

Thank you guys. I've decided in the future to go to a four year college. In terms of Bachelors should I go for computer science or computer information systems? I heard Georgia State University is one of the best in the country for Bachelors based on Tech


Don't waste your time on CS or CIS. Get a business degree. Best programmer I know has a history degree and one of the better sysadmins is in English. It's certs and experience for IT. Business degree shows you understand how the overall company works and it's appreciated upstairs.

E: and don't listen to dilbert as gently caress. Ever. Especially not on the weekends when he's drinking.

BornAPoorBlkChild
Sep 24, 2012
GSU has Bachelors in Business Administration... That just happens to be IN the CIS major..

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




I have a computer science degree and it's been pretty useful in IT.

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug

Race Realists posted:

GSU has Bachelors in Business Administration... That just happens to be IN the CIS major..

BA is good, there is a good need for people who can manage the business side of things as well as understanding at a high-medium level on IT operations.

What do you like about IT, where do you want to end up? Do you like managing work flows of IT and ensuring tasks are done or do you like more of the engineering side of things? Going into BA is great but generally you won't be as technically facing as you would in an engineering position.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Dilbert As gently caress posted:

Uhh, If your in the south Dell has some awesome openings around Georgia. I mean what qualifications and expirence do you have over a degree? Seriously, A degree may get you in the door but it is the experience and knowledge that will sell your value to the employer.

This is terrible advice.

I mean, I only got a degree a few months ago. But it's better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it. Degrees confer knowledge, believe it or not, and most employers consider a degree worth 3-4 years of experience for applying.

Experience and knowledge helps a lot, and it's arguably better for now, but there's always the possibility of the industry changing in the future. And you will be hamstrung if you ever want to pursue a management track at a large company without a degree.

If people don't want to get a degree, their choice. But don't deter people from a beneficial decision because school doesn't fit your personal narrative.

E: the choice of major has little bearing on where you end up. If we sounded off, I bet almost none of us have degrees in CS, CIS, math, or any engineering discipline. History represent.

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug

evol262 posted:

This is terrible advice.

I mean, I only got a degree a few months ago. But it's better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it. Degrees confer knowledge, believe it or not, and most employers consider a degree worth 3-4 years of experience for applying.
He said he had an associates, that is a degree last I checked. Ultimately it depends where you apply to and where you go to work, as well as, how you want to pursue your job career. CC+EXP and a cert or two can go a long way over a 4 year and no experience. Understanding the working knowledge of IT, and the business functions first hand are something that can't be taught.

While they may figure a BA equals 3-4 years of experience, which I am not denying they don't. The TCO of an AAS + EXP vs. 4 years of student loans + then betting on a job. Does the AAS, work for getting you a job that you want? If not then pursue further. I'm not saying stop at an AAS, just look and weigh all the options.

quote:

Experience and knowledge helps a lot, and it's arguably better for now, but there's always the possibility of the industry changing in the future. And you will be hamstrung if you ever want to pursue a management track at a large company without a degree.

Again, it depends where you want to work, sure Medium-large enterprises will go by the HR filter, and will want college graduates. I am not saying limit yourself, but just look at your options. Online BS degrees exist and no one is saying you can't work and school at the same time. However, working and schooling, while taxing, can have it's benefits.

quote:

If people don't want to get a degree, their choice. But don't deter people from a beneficial decision because school doesn't fit your personal narrative.

I fail to see in my post where I said BS's are bad and not to get them. I was merely asking a question, on where he stands, has he weighed his options, and where he wants to go.

Dilbert As FUCK fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Aug 15, 2014

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

You basically have to have a degree to enter the workforce at this point. You may get 1-in-a-million lucky and land a good first job without it and work your way up, but the glut of college graduates means that HR departments can afford to toss out anyone who doesn't have a four year degree purely on principle. Get a four year degree if you want a job.

I say this as a person who does not have a degree and got phenomenally lucky landing a first job and haven't been unduly hindered by my lack of one, even for potential management positions. But I was very lucky and I started in IT 10 years ago before the education boom and the 2008 recession meant that the market was flooded with degree-havers who would work for slave wages.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

Race Realists posted:

I want to start off as a help desk and work my way up to Network/server Admin, but a majority of those jobs require a Bachelors. Now here's the thing: A great majority of the Network Admin jobs I see out there ask for a Bachelors in CS instead of C I S.
Those jobs list the bachelors, most of them outside of very large corporations don't actually require them. We list them on every job and on our team only the lowest level guy on the helpdesk has a 4 year degree. 3 admins, 5 helpdesk, and one team lead, and only one bachelors.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Please stop. I know the ROI argument. I also spent the first 7 years of my career without a degree. It didn't matter. Some of us are in relatively hot/niche roles (virtualization, Linux, etc), and it's easy to be misled.

Again, experience is more valuable, to a point, but "Dell is hiring people, think about that instead" is not considering your options. It's making a shortsighted choice.

I went to school while I worked full-time in the industry. I don't recommend it. "HR filters" get bypassed once you have enough experience that you're applying somewhere looking for a skillset instead of ability. "Bachelor's or above for director and above" does not.

I don't mean this to denigrate, but you're in your early 20s in a niche role and you've never worked for a major company, or even a large one. Don't give general career advice like this. Don't take it personally, but don't do it. You are a neophyte, not an expert. I'm not an expert either, but I knew a lot of people (including myself) making the same kind of arguments you're making when I was 24. That changes when you're 30 at a point in your career you didn't think you'd be at until you were 40, and wtf are you gonna do for the next 30 years.

Think of how far you've gone in the last 5 years. Think about going that far in the next 5. How do you plan to keep that pace going for the next 5 after that? And after those 5? Eventually you, too, will hit a point where a degree will be required for the role. And hopefully you will have done it before you got married or had kids or have to take care of your parents or the other poo poo which eats up time as we age.

Don't tell people to "consider". Especially "considering options" which suggest working instead of a bachelor's. Almost everyone would rather make money than pay money for school. This is a bad choice for your career in the long run if you ever expect to be in a leadership position.

A degree is not vocational training. An AA may be. A BS or BA is not. It's not about getting the next job. It's about being qualified to get the job you want in 20 years, or emigrating, or whatever. Do you want to go to school and work because it's required for advancement when you're 35 or 40 and you have a family? Don't make life decisions on short-term objectives.

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug
I'd like to discuss this over PM so the thread can get back to the original topic, thanks.

NZAmoeba
Feb 14, 2005

It turns out it's MAN!
Hair Elf
Reading the bit on the last page about deployments was funny. I too have been running most of the major deployments here for the last 2 years and a bit, and we're taking our tentative steps into the developers doing small deploys themselves. Long road to go down before we have a system that Docjowles describes, but then I think we were doing similar stuff back 7 years ago when we were the size of his company, and our CTO was also the head developer and main Ops guy (and his desktop was the deploy machine).


My manager also has me reading through The Phoenix Project right now, what's everyone's opinion on it? Personally I would have quit by chapter 4.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Has anyone without a degree hit any stumbling blocks? Or actually have been denied a position because they didn't have a degree?

I haven't had any problems... So far...

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Dilbert As gently caress posted:

I'd like to discuss this over PM so the thread can get back to the original topic, thanks.

I'm happy to respond over pm, and I know that was a little bit of "listen here, junior" condescension, but the career value of a degree while/for working in IT is perfectly suited to this thread (even judging by the OP), regardless of whether or not you like where the discussion is going.

This is the thread for career discussion, after all.

Dilbert As FUCK
Sep 8, 2007

by Cowcaster
Pillbug

evol262 posted:

I'm happy to respond over pm, and I know that was a little bit of "listen here, junior" condescension, but the career value of a degree while/for working in IT is perfectly suited to this thread (even judging by the OP), regardless of whether or not you like where the discussion is going.

This is the thread for career discussion, after all.

I agree but I have a history of odd opinions and such, so I would rather discuss it one on one then give opening to something that could/will derail the thread into something non constructive.

I'd love to discuss it here and make a fool of whatever I am but eh, I think it might degrade from that of a constructive thread. So let's just talk about helping people!

Tab8715 posted:

Has anyone without a degree hit any stumbling blocks? Or actually have been denied a position because they didn't have a degree?

I haven't had any problems... So far...

No problems hitting 6 figure offerings here.

jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


I have a GED, I left highschool early to start a career in ISP tech support. Moved on to sysadmin for a wireless ISP and now I'm a Systems Architect for a fortune 1000 company.

I have an RHCA, CCNP, and working on my CCIE in security.

Please ignore everything dilbert as gently caress says, he's a complete idiot and should stay on his meds.

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go

Dilbert As gently caress posted:

He said he had an associates, that is a degree last I checked.
"A degree" is a bachelor's degree. Anything else is referred to by its title unless the person is a) hoping you don't notice their inflation or b) exercising false humility.

Having a degree is always better than not having a degree, I don't know how this is ever a topic. Anything you can put on your resume is better than not having that thing on your resume.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

jaegerx posted:

I have a GED, I left highschool early to start a career in ISP tech support. Moved on to sysadmin for a wireless ISP and now I'm a Systems Architect for a fortune 1000 company.

I have an RHCA, CCNP, and working on my CCIE in security.

Please ignore everything dilbert as gently caress says, he's a complete idiot and should stay on his meds.

This is exactly the problem. I dropped out of high school, started in the industry at the age Dilbert is now, was heading a team of admins at a Fortune 50 five years after that, and working as a dev for Red Hat two years after that. I have no certs and didn't have a degree until last May.

I'm an outlier. You're an outlier. He's an outlier. Many of us got to where we are without formal education. But that doesn't make it less valuable for people less lucky, less talented (I mostly think I lucked into where I am and was anyway), trying to break in in 2014, or hitting the upper limits of the engineering totem pole (architect is awfully close) and thinking about bigger things (director, CTO, etc).

Telling people that you make six figures without it (as an aside, talking about how much you make is a little uncouth -- the more you make, the less it should come up), are an architect with a GED, et al does them a disservice. People aren't required to get a degree, but it's a good choice for a vast majority of workers, even IT workers.

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CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




Yeah, by saying "I have a degree in computer science" I mean I have a BSc and I would always assume someone who says that means a bachelor's or above. I'm not even 100% sure we have associates degree here in BC.

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