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Tuxedo Catfish posted:FPS aren't roguelikes. 
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Aug 17, 2014 20:11
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I'm sorry you're offended by my stating the obvious.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:11
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Play DayZ or ARMA on an FPS-only server. Otherwise, yeah, FPSes are not really roguelikes in general.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:26
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Yeah, I too constantly worry about the right labels for things instead of discussing games that share similar mechanics to other games that I like
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Aug 17, 2014 20:29
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He's right. ufarn posted:Play DayZ or ARMA on an FPS-only server. Games in completely different genres aren't roguelikes just because you only get one life, or because the levels are randomly generated. Tin Tim posted:Yeah, I too constantly worry about the right labels for things instead of discussing games that share similar mechanics to other games that I like It's a good thing to do, so that we don't have to discuss garbage like Rogue Shooter or Rogue Legacy in the thread for actual roguelikes.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:36
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Tin Tim posted:Yeah, I too constantly worry about the right labels for things instead of discussing games that share similar mechanics to other games that I like Yeah, this is pretty much my point. If the game isn't a roguelike its close enough that people would still enjoy it. Arguing about what is and isnt a roguelike is pointless and causes a huge derail that is retarded every single time. It's just kind of a lazy comment at this point.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:37
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Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:Games in completely different genres aren't roguelikes just because you only get one life, or because the levels are randomly generated. ed: Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:It's a good thing to do, so that we don't have to discuss garbage like Rogue Shooter or Rogue Legacy in the thread for actual roguelikes.  quote:If you are asking "Is it okay to talk about this game in this thread?" the answer is always YES. maketakunai fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Aug 17, 2014 |
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Aug 17, 2014 20:38
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I'd say FPS roguelike is a pretty clear indication that someone is talking about a related genre rather than a turn based third person top down view dungeon crawler roguelike.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:40
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I would play the gently caress out of a turn based fps dungeon crawler
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Aug 17, 2014 20:43
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:I would play the gently caress out of a turn based fps dungeon crawler Doom RPG, Doom RPG II, Wofenstein RPG, Orcs & Elves, Orcs & Elves II.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:44
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To actually answer Turtlicious's question, there aren't any. Not a single game that calls itself an "FPS Roguelike" or can be described as one is good.EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:I would play the gently caress out of a turn based fps dungeon crawler Good news, gamer. There's a tool out there somewhere that lets you play DoomRL in first person.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:44
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Turtlicious posted:Is there any good FPS roguelike released that has interesting skills though? Like it seems everyone I've seen, (Ziggurat, Heavy Bullets, Candy Skulls, Tower of Guns, and Eldritch,) All have that lovely progression of Melee -> Gun -> Better Gun -> Best Gun. It doesn't seem like there are many innovative ideas. No fancy movement stuff, no "magicky" type spells that could change how you play. Just Shoot Mans -> Win game. I feel like Ziggurat and games like it are doomed to fail, because instead of innovating they're just trying to re-tread over the same tired ground. Doom RPG mod for GZDoom. Combine with OBLIGE and load a new mappack on death and you have an FPS roguelike!
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Aug 17, 2014 20:44
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Tin Tim posted:Yeah, I too constantly worry about the right labels for things instead of discussing games that share similar mechanics to other games that I like Their mechanics aren't similar, either. One genre is turn-based, models 2D distance in a very granular way, relies on complex interactions that take time to consider, and emphasizes knowledge of rules and properties over player performance. The other is real-time, models 3D distance as much like a continuum as possible, relies on split-second judgements, and emphasizes player performance over a necessarily (relatively) simple set of rules. This isn't pedantry, it's the reason behind Turtlicious's complaint that games like Ziggurat seem doomed to fail. Things that work in one medium are inherently awkward in the other, or at least would require unprecedented developer resources to fix.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:49
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Oh good, another genre discussion. Do roguelike fans feel persecuted or something? In more interesting news, gently caress yes I finally managed to beat NecroDancer on Hardcore, and I've come to the conclusion that longswords are the best weapon. Every other one I've tried is either basically a weaker longsword (spears), has awkward attack angles (whip, broadsword), does weird things to movement (cat-o-nine-tails, flail), or is too rare to really be worth thinking about (bows, crossbows, blunderbusses). I mean, not that I won't use them when I find them, but by far my most successful runs are with longswords. I got lucky with the boss order on this run: Death Metal > Deep Blue > King Conga. I find the conga line to be the easiest boss and the chess one to be the hardest, so getting the chess fight in the middle (by which point I had decent gear) simplified things significantly. I also got lucky in that I blundered into a Shrine of Shadows but the shopkeeper on that level had a ring for sale. Free stuff without the darkness penalty! Plus, getting the Map from the shrine meant I noticed a potion vault in a later level, which was a literal lifesaver in zone 3.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:49
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Potsticker posted:Doom RPG, Doom RPG II, Wofenstein RPG, Orcs & Elves, Orcs & Elves II. FYI this Doom RPG is not the Doom RPG that's a mod or whatever. Sadly, I think it was only released for pre-Smartphones, because this series of games was pretty amazing. I think Orcs & Elves II may have made it out for the DS. (3DS?) Seriously these all were super good, not that I couldn't pick a few nits, but they were all really fun and I'm sad that this style of game isn't more popular with developers. Oh, and QuestLord, which is on Android and I think iPhone. It's less action oriented, though.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:49
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:I would play the gently caress out of a turn based fps dungeon crawler Legend of Grimrock, sorta?
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Aug 17, 2014 20:55
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Yep, pretty sure longswords are the best weapon. That boss difficulty order's pretty funny since mine's the exact opposite: Conga Line is the hardest for me, mostly because there's so many enemy variants to keep track of while slowly whittling down the zombie horde and plinking the gorilla that constantly beeline for you. For the chess one, which I think is easiest, I just hit everything that steps forward, all the pieces obey chess rules and take a couple beats to move (tilting when they're about to go), but anything that reaches the end of the board promotes to a Queen so you have to prevent that. Death Metal doesn't have the annoying "kill everything else first" restriction so I find it a bit easier than Conga Line but I have yet to figure out when he's gonna cast Fireball and when he's gonna cast Raise Undead, although that's probably just due to a lack of practice. Having to worry about the shield is a little annoying but it gets eliminated after a few hits so it's alright.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Their mechanics aren't similar, either. One genre is turn-based, models 2D distance in a very granular way, relies on complex interactions that take time to consider, and emphasizes knowledge of rules and properties over player performance. Yea. Also very often the "roguelike elements" in these FPS games are just cheap substitutes for actual game design, level design and difficulty, a combination that results in a bad game every single time. Jack Trades posted:Legend of Grimrock, sorta? I think Legend of Grimrock and its predecessors are real-time. Wizardry and Might & Magic games are turn-based first person RPGs. None of them have the "shooter" part, and none of them are roguelikes, if that's what he was looking for.
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Aug 17, 2014 20:58
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maketakunai posted:Death Metal doesn't have the annoying "kill everything else first" restriction so I find it a bit easier than Conga Line but I have yet to figure out when he's gonna cast Fireball and when he's gonna cast Raise Undead, although that's probably just due to a lack of practice. It's based on what he's shouting. It's "Breathin' fire!" when he's casting fireball.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:01
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maketakunai posted:That boss difficulty order's pretty funny since mine's the exact opposite: Conga Line is the hardest for me, mostly because there's so many enemy variants to keep track of while slowly whittling down the zombie horde and plinking the gorilla that constantly beeline for you. quote:For the chess one, which I think is easiest, I just hit everything that steps forward, all the pieces obey chess rules and take a couple beats to move (tilting when they're about to go), but anything that reaches the end of the board promotes to a Queen so you have to prevent that. quote:Death Metal doesn't have the annoying "kill everything else first" restriction so I find it a bit easier than Conga Line but I have yet to figure out when he's gonna cast Fireball and when he's gonna cast Raise Undead, although that's probably just due to a lack of practice. Having to worry about the shield is a little annoying but it gets eliminated after a few hits so it's alright. As noted, his vocal cues indicate what spell he's going to cast. But when in doubt, just don't stand on the same row as he does and you'll be fine. He has the most random "AI" of the bosses, but he's so slow it hardly matters.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:09
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This is dumb, even more dumb than when it usually happens. Lets talk about games that are somewhat random and fun in here. Yeah that would be cool, we don't need to be exclusive elitists about our game subgenre. The people who are being pedantic about it can go start a cool like ascii only thread or something.
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Aug 17, 2014 21:20
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Is there a way to see if I had a special birth message in ADOM after the fact? I haven't played since the first of the new updates so I started up a ratling duelist. So far I've had 2 floors with herbs, 2 co-aligned altars, a surge a power, and some weird named goblin thing that is definitely new to the updated versions. It feels very much like a long lost brother game. Too bad the SMC made me get pinned between a rat and a giant rat giving me an abysmal first kill if I wanted to try an ultra.
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Aug 18, 2014 00:40
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MrBims posted:Doom RPG mod for GZDoom. Combine with OBLIGE and load a new mappack on death and you have an FPS roguelike! Add in DoomRL Arsenal and you even get randomized loot.
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Aug 18, 2014 00:50
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How is the Jojo Diavolo roguelike?
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Aug 18, 2014 01:58
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amuayse posted:How is the Jojo Diavolo roguelike? Comes down to how much you like mystery dungeon style RLs. I find it fun but nothing to write home about.
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Aug 18, 2014 02:12
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dis astranagant posted:Add in DoomRL Arsenal and you even get randomized loot. Godddamn this is fun, just set it up. Have to play on nightmare at least otherwise it's not much of a challenge.
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Aug 18, 2014 04:28
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Dr. Dos posted:Is there a way to see if I had a special birth message in ADOM after the fact? I don't know whether it was implemented but someone definitely suggested that on the bug tracker. I wouldn't bother putting any serious time into the release that's out now. Levers are bugged so the game is unwinnable. I feel like what's happened half the time is the new pre-release will end up having some glaring issue that doesn't get fixed until a month later, at which point a new glaring issue pops up. This one is particularly bad since you can't use the Casino at all or even close the portal.
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Aug 18, 2014 04:44
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Cerepol posted:Godddamn this is fun, just set it up. Have to play on nightmare at least otherwise it's not much of a challenge. Use the monster pack if you're using the arsenal. You'll get more of the fancy weapons but a lot of the new monsters are hilariously brutal. Also play a class that isn't marine if you want things to be hard. Simply being able to spam plasma rifles is an insanely powerful skill and some of the rapid fire assemblies are just absurd. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 04:46
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The problem I have with commercial roguelikes, whether they be traditional or hybrid roguelikes is that none of them feel like they have any staying power. Everyone gets hype for like a month when they're first released and then they pretty much disappear. The only one I can think of that's broken this mold is The Binding Of Isaac.
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Aug 18, 2014 04:53
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Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:Yea. Also very often the "roguelike elements" in these FPS games are just cheap substitutes for actual game design, level design and difficulty, a combination that results in a bad game every single time. Yeah trying to make a Doom-esque roguelike FPS is the most baffling thing, because literally the thing that makes Doom a great game is the level design. Having an computer poo poo out levels at random completely destroys its appeal. And BTW I think the statement above works almost as well if you remove the "FPS". Basically the game that defined what roguelike is was Nethack, but in my opinion the defining characteristics of that game had very little to do with the randomization and more to do with the meticulousness and clever thinking required during play. It's almost an adventure game in certain ways. Unfortunately it's borderline unplayable because of difficulty and the 'clever thinking' is just way, way, way too obtuse, but I don't think I've seen a single one of this wave of roguelike games that tries to take that and fix it or make it work as opposed to just acting like procedural level generation were the second coming of Christ. Brogue comes pretty close. Maybe that's the tabletop/D&D aspects of Nethack and the original roguelikes? In any case I just don't really feel like procedural generation is all that useful in game design. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 05:27
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icantfindaname posted:Yeah trying to make a Doom-esque roguelike FPS is the most baffling thing, because literally the thing that makes Doom a great game is the level design. Having an computer poo poo out levels at random completely destroys its appeal Nope. OBLIGE owns.
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Aug 18, 2014 05:30
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Wait what are you guys talking about? What is Oblige, DoomRL, and the "Arsenal pack" I'm confused. Wasn't doom some lovely xbox game?
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Aug 18, 2014 05:34
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Nintendo Kid posted:Nope. OBLIGE owns. It looks like that actually tries to produce contained levels as opposed to endless procedural dungeons, though? I don't think that's really what FPS roguelikes go for usually Turtlicious posted:Wait what are you guys talking about? What is Oblige, DoomRL, and the "Arsenal pack" I'm confused. Wasn't doom some lovely xbox game? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3420790 
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Aug 18, 2014 05:38
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Turtlicious posted:Wait what are you guys talking about? What is Oblige, DoomRL, and the "Arsenal pack" I'm confused. Wasn't doom some lovely xbox game? OBLIGE is a continuation of the SLIGE project which generates Doom levels and level packs algorithmically (including options like generating a progressively harder set of levels in a single file, etc) http://oblige.sourceforge.net/ DoomRL is a traditional roguelike based on Doom: http://doom.chaosforge.org/ I have no idea what an arsenal pack is in relation to this, there's a lot of game things called that. Lastly you're a loving blasphemer.
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Aug 18, 2014 05:38
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icantfindaname posted:Yeah trying to make a Doom-esque roguelike FPS is the most baffling thing, because literally the thing that makes Doom a great game is the level design. Having an computer poo poo out levels at random completely destroys its appeal. If they actually poo poo out levels at random it would be somewhat interesting. Right now you go from bad and boring pre-designed room to the next.
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Aug 18, 2014 05:38
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icantfindaname posted:It looks like that actually tries to produce contained levels as opposed to endless procedural dungeons, though? I don't think that's really what FPS roguelikes go for usually Well that is what a FPS roguelike would have to do isn't it? Most roguelike games only have a certain number of floors in the "dungeons" and then you get to whatever macguffins you need. You don't just keep entering new rooms in Rogue and NetHack themselves after all, each level ends at a certain point and then you have to get to the between-level stairs. OBLIGE is even able to generate interlinked-levels using a hub system in the manner of Heretic/Hexen (although this feature ends up being a few versions behind the main world generation code). There is no reason that the current attempts at "FPS roguelikes" don't do this really, other than that the people making them seem to have serious trouble putting together a half-decent random environment generator. Which is really kind of funny, because the OBLIGE project has source code available to study.
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Aug 18, 2014 05:44
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Nintendo Kid posted:OBLIGE is a continuation of the SLIGE project which generates Doom levels and level packs algorithmically (including options like generating a progressively harder set of levels in a single file, etc) http://oblige.sourceforge.net/ DoomRL Arsenal is a Doom wad that started out porting DoomRL weapons and crafting to Doom and has since added ton of new equipment and interactions between different items. It also has an optional monster pack that gives some of the new guns to the monsters. It also has a trimmed down version of DoomRL's classes. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 05:46
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Klaus Kinski posted:If they actually poo poo out levels at random it would be somewhat interesting. Right now you go from bad and boring pre-designed room to the next. It's what makes OBLIGE so cool, you can change it up from classic style level design to really hosed up (well as hosed as you can get in a DooM engine). Nintendo Kid posted:DoomRL is a traditional roguelike based on Doom: http://doom.chaosforge.org/ DooM RL Arsenal is a mod for the ZDooM engine that backports many great items from doomrl into DooM itself.
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Aug 18, 2014 05:50
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we've reached peak roguelike goon in that someone doesn't know what doom is
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Aug 18, 2014 06:08
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I just googled the original doom and it looks like poo poo. Oh look at this innovative level design of "Maze" and "Dudes running at you" watch out, one might be a giant bullet sponge! I guess that was passable in 1998, but in 2014 we play real games.
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Aug 18, 2014 06:41
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