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zoux
Apr 28, 2006

I don't know why there are such strong feelings about Whedon above other creators. Me I hate Ubu the Dog!!

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precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
Moments and performances can make an entire show - see: Northern Exposure - but most people who talk about Firefly talk about it like people talk about The Wire or Breaking Bad, as something which had a great world and totally eventually would have had a fantastic plot.

poo poo, now I kind of want Northern Exposure in space.

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

DrVenkman posted:

I think this is about right. I mean Jericho had longer, but Firefly is made up of some really good moments and performances and that's it. No doubt that if Whedon got longer with it then it would've found it's groove, but it can't be judged on what might have been. I don't think it deserved to be cancelled, but there are so many shows I'd bring back before that one.

No doubt. I think that the fervor over Firefly -- and I say this as someone who was unapologetically hardcore about the show when I first discovered it -- was more about its lost potential and FOX's lovely treatment of it than the show itself. That sounds a little more backhanded than I intended; to be sure, it was a strong show, the bones of something magical were there. But nothing ignites a movement like a sense of injustice, and airing the show out of order in a Friday timeslot with an incredibly corny ad campaign that sold it as Buckaroo Banzai Goes West stinks of injustice.

For my money, Journeyman had the better half-season run. Nobody talks about it though, because NBC gave it as fair a shot as you could expect.

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?

DrVenkman posted:

I think there's a pretty good chance it wouldn't have been cancelled the first time around. I don't think it would've lasted all that long, but the show had solid ratings. I think they would've got about 3 seasons out of it and then there would be stories about getting a Netflix deal.

Jericho was being outperformed in the ratings department by the second season of Ghost Whisperer, which aired on a Friday at 8pm. In terms of CBS' lineup, it was a pretty poor showing and only got worse during the second season. Jericho is a lesson that listening to fan campaigns is a really lovely idea.

e: Going through old programming lineups is absolutely hilarious, by the way. It really hammers home how forgettable most television shows are.

Baronash fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 26, 2014

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
The other thing I don't quite understand about hardcore Firefly fans is that Serenity exists and as far as I'm concerned that's about all that was needed. Serenity is a ridiculously well-executed sci-fi film and also the last anyone should want out of that setting.

Sober
Nov 19, 2011

First touch: Life.
Second touch: Dead again. Forever.

precision posted:

Firefly is the perfect example of something with good episodes that was nevertheless not a great show.

Firefly was good. Firefly fans, however, are not.


also, the real showdown should've been Pushing Daisies vs. Happy Endings

Irish Joe
Jul 23, 2007

by Lowtax

Sober posted:

also, the real showdown should've been Pushing Daisies vs. Happy Endings

Pushing Daisies has not aged well, but Happy Endings was never good. Tough choice.

Baronash
Feb 29, 2012

So what do you want to be called?

precision posted:

The other thing I don't quite understand about hardcore Firefly fans is that Serenity exists and as far as I'm concerned that's about all that was needed. Serenity is a ridiculously well-executed sci-fi film and also the last anyone should want out of that setting.

I love Serenity as a film, but it transports the characters from the setting that made the show unique and interesting to me, the frontier, into a fairly generic futuristic sci-fi landscape. Part of the reason I got into the show was because I am a sucker for westerns, and the movie almost entirely drops that part of the story.

Not to mention that a movie isn't really a satisfying substitute for several seasons of a television show.

SpiderHyphenMan
Apr 1, 2010

by Fluffdaddy
I tried to watch Ultimate Spider-Man the other day and I got five minutes in before I saw this:

gently caress that show and sorry you don't get to be in a good Spider-Man cartoon Donald Glover. :(

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
To be honest, if you got the cast of Firefly together to be in something that is actually a conventional Western, it would probably loving rule. I wasn't much of a fan of the juggling act it tried to do, maybe that's why I preferred Serenity, though I think it's also a little unfair to say Serenity excised the junky Western aspect entirely; from memory there were about as many "Western" scenes as "generic sci-fi place" scenes, weren't there?

Spatula City
Oct 21, 2010

LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING
I want to binge a TV show within the next couple days, and could use help deciding.

Options:
Sleepy Hollow season 1
Broad City season 1
Key and Peele, every bit of it available on Amazon Prime
Carnivale
finish Continuum season 2
continue watching Once Upon a Time season 2 (consider this the I Hate You option)
Revenge season 2
Caprica
24 season 1 (never seen more than a few random episodes of 24)
Homeland season 2 :haw:

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Sleepy Hollow.

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.

Aphrodite posted:

Moments and performances, minor things on a television show I guess?

It wasn't enough to get people watching. But watching it again now, that's all that you can grasp on to. They hadn't nailed the characters yet, didn't know hot to do serial storytelling or overarching arc. They still hadn't nailed the tone either. Minor things on a television show I guess? It's a very thin show that showed great potential but was ended before it was able to build on what it had. Serenity was a fine send off, but I would've liked to have seen what Firefly could've achieved.

While mood is great for something like Northern Exposure, which is a character driven show, it doesn't work for Firefly, which wasn't.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

~*4 LIFE*~

MrAristocrates posted:

Sleepy Hollow.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
Sleepy Hollow, Key and Peele, Carnivale.

Depending on whether you want goofy genre fun, hilarious skits, or a super serious mindfuck.

Flatscan
Mar 27, 2001

Outlaw Journalist

Carnivale.

Vincent
Nov 25, 2005



It surprised me how bad the first episode of the new season of Doctor Who is.

Slamhound
Mar 27, 2010
I liked both Jericho and Firefly, but they really should bring back Alphas.

Sober
Nov 19, 2011

First touch: Life.
Second touch: Dead again. Forever.

Vincent posted:

It surprised me how bad the first episode of the new season of Doctor Who is.
There's good and bad parts. The bad parts being Moffat spending 1/3 of the script telling us we should give Peter Capaldi a chance. The good parts are after the first horrid 20 minutes.

Irish Joe
Jul 23, 2007

by Lowtax

Spatula City posted:

I want to binge a TV show within the next couple days, and could use help deciding.

Caprica

You'll get the most out of Caprica. Its a very good show, incredibly dense and thought-provoking. That said, its not something you can watch while vegged out on the couch. It demands that you engage with it and if you can't or are unwilling to, you might as well watch Sleepy Hollow. Television doesn't get more mindless than that.

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.

Vincent posted:

It surprised me how bad the first episode of the new season of Doctor Who is.

I posted in the thread, but I liked Capaldi and I liked when the episode actually slows down and you get some moments between The Doctor and Clara. The rest of it though is Moffat overwriting (Missed something? It's OK, Moffat has got you covered because he's going to hammer it home) and everyone shouting their lines at each other.

The embarrassing gay marriage stuff was just the worst. I don't know why two people keep telling eachother they're married, it's like they keep forgetting.

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

DrVenkman posted:

They hadn't nailed the characters yet, didn't know hot to do serial storytelling or overarching arc.

I think that's because several other genre shows came in after that and figured out how to do it even better, building off the blueprint left by Buffy, Angel, Firefly et. al. By all means, don't oversell the quality of Firefly, but don't underestimate it either (if only because you'll give Browncoats an excuse to call it "underrated"). Firefly was my gateway into better television. Just because better television came after that (and there is even some better television to be found before) doesn't change it from being a watershed series to a lot of people.

Lugaloco
Jun 29, 2011

Ice to see you!

Spatula City posted:

I want to binge a TV show within the next couple days, and could use help deciding.

Options:
Sleepy Hollow season 1
Broad City season 1
Key and Peele, every bit of it available on Amazon Prime
Carnivale
finish Continuum season 2
continue watching Once Upon a Time season 2 (consider this the I Hate You option)
Revenge season 2
Caprica
24 season 1 (never seen more than a few random episodes of 24)
Homeland season 2 :haw:

Broad City. Probably the best new comedy around and super easy to watch.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

DivisionPost posted:

Firefly was my gateway into better television.

Dear God man, what did you watch before Firefly? :catstare:

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.


Ick I'm agreein with rarity, that's how crucial it is that you should watch sleepy hollow :smith:

Ed: also here's a fun game to play: count the number of times in carnivale when a central plot of the episode is someone threatening to quit and then doesn't by the end, it's kind of incredible how many times they go back to that well over a two season show

Also it's bad news for your show when the show is vastly more interesting when it's away from the carnival; the show shoulda been just about the preacher and his weird adventures over the desperately uninteresting soap opera gimmicks that dominated every carnival story in carnivale

In short, carnivale was at best a mediocre show

NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Aug 26, 2014

DivisionPost
Jun 28, 2006

Nobody likes you.
Everybody hates you.
You're gonna lose.

Smile, you fuck.

precision posted:

Dear God man, what did you watch before Firefly? :catstare:

At the moment, I can't remember a drat thing I watched. You have to understand, I caught up on Firefly just after my first year of college; 2004, a year before Serenity dropped. Back then I was way more into movies than I was into TV, and I wasn't really paying attention to how the landscape was changing until that show dropped.

Spatula City
Oct 21, 2010

LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING

Vincent posted:

It surprised me how bad the first episode of the new season of Doctor Who is.

Nope. Only 1/3 of it was bad. The rest was fascinating, daring, and effectively rebooted the series in a new, more somber direction.
I will concede there were too many dumb jokes at Strax's expense. And the dinosaur was pointless.
But Peter Capaldi owns and will be the best Doctor of the revival. :colbert:

Also, thank you all for your opinions, I shall watch Sleepy Hollow first, then Carnivale, then Broad City, then Caprica. It's nice to have a prioritized list. :unsmith:

Annakie
Apr 20, 2005

"It's pretty bad, isn't it? I know it's pretty bad. Ever since I can remember..."
Jericho is still sort of alive, it's continuing in graphic novel form. The second one, known as "Season 4" just came out like last month. I bought it but haven't read it yet because I forgot who all the characters were so I need to go reread season 3.

If you miss Firefly, you should give Sparks Nevada, Marshal on Mars, a part of The Thrilling Adventure Hour a try. I know I keep pushing it but that's mostly because it is literally my favorite thing still. Also, Nathan Fillion is in about 10 episodes, Adam Baldwin and Alan Tudyk are also in one each.

Annakie fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Aug 26, 2014

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Don't watch carnivale spatula, it's 1/3 a great show dominated by 2/3 of a really boring soap opera

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Toxxupation posted:

Don't watch carnivale spatula, it's 1/3 a great show dominated by 2/3 of a really boring soap opera

Season 2 fixed that, in my opinion. And season 2 doesn't make sense without watching season 1.

It's a lot more worth watching than Dr. Who, that's for sure! :haw:

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

Carnivale is great. Firefly is trash.

Ravane
Oct 23, 2010

by LadyAmbien

Spatula City posted:

I want to binge a TV show within the next couple days, and could use help deciding.

Options:
Sleepy Hollow season 1
Broad City season 1
Key and Peele, every bit of it available on Amazon Prime
Carnivale
finish Continuum season 2
continue watching Once Upon a Time season 2 (consider this the I Hate You option)
Revenge season 2
Caprica
24 season 1 (never seen more than a few random episodes of 24)
Homeland season 2 :haw:

If you like cut and paste procedurals, stick to Sleep Hollow.

But, though short, Caprica is absolutely brilliant in its delivery of a sci-fi world. It's an intense socio-political drama, which is rare for science fiction. And the deviation from "regular" science fiction is quite pleasant and well worth it.

In either case, finish Continuum because season 3 is a great watch.

Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene
Fun Shoe
Caprica has plot movement that the term "glacial" seems too fast for.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005


Caprica would have been good if the show could have focused on just one plot. Instead it threw a bunch of stuff at the wall and nothing stuck.

Aphrodite
Jun 27, 2006

Spatula City posted:

Nope. Only 1/3 of it was bad. The rest was fascinating, daring, and effectively rebooted the series in a new, more somber direction.
I will concede there were too many dumb jokes at Strax's expense. And the dinosaur was pointless.
But Peter Capaldi owns and will be the best Doctor of the revival. :colbert:

Also, thank you all for your opinions, I shall watch Sleepy Hollow first, then Carnivale, then Broad City, then Caprica. It's nice to have a prioritized list. :unsmith:

Up to the restaurant is a full half.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Ravane posted:

If you like cut and paste procedurals, stick to Sleep Hollow.

This is either really witty or the most low effort troll I've ever seen.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

Party Plane Jones posted:

Caprica has plot movement that the term "glacial" seems too fast for.

Ha watch Southcliffe.

Spatula City
Oct 21, 2010

LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING

Aphrodite posted:

Up to the restaurant is a full half.

But Clara finally showing a backbone, and the whole bit with the homeless guy is before the restaurant.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

precision posted:

This is either really witty or the most low effort troll I've ever seen.

Look who posted it.

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SpiderHyphenMan
Apr 1, 2010

by Fluffdaddy
Watch Spectacular Spider-Man. It's better than Batman: TAS and everything the character should be.

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