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Cleretic posted:The one thing I'll say in defense of the Wedding of River Song is that I really like the setting. Every event and period in history occurring simultaneously at around 5PM on a Tuesday is a really fun setting, and a great way to depict 'poo poo Is Temporally hosed'. What they do IN that setting, that's complete garbage, but I can't hate a setting with Holy Roman Emperor Winston Churchill. It looked great, and had some good stuff, like Dickens on a morning show, but if all history was happening at once, doesn't that mean daleks and cybermen were on Earth? So why doesn't Amy remember them? I don't know, it was all confusing. Also, one suggestion I heard was that the fake Doctor at the end should have been a flesh duplicate, as that would have made it a lot more tragic. I think I agree with the feeling that season six was poo poo overall, but it had some good episodes (mostly those not written by Moffat). The God Complex was perfect, and The Girl Who Waited was good (though it kind of recycled from The Girl in the Fireplace- a lot of Moffat's women do, actually). I liked The Doctor's Wife a lot. A Christmas Carol had one of my favorite lines ever ("In 900 years, I've never met anyone who wasn't important"). I need to rewatch the flesh two-parter, because I remember thinking it seemed good, but I was busy with something else at the time (GRE practice, maybe?) and couldn't focus on it. A Good Man Goes to War was fun because it was so big, but it was followed up with my least-favorite episode ever. Going through the list, it seems I like season six more than I remembered. Basically, screw the whole River/Silence/Mystical Pregnancy crap. Spatula City posted:I've heard that in the original series, a lot of the serials had serious ethical dilemmas presented to the Doctor with no easy answers. Watch "Genesis of the Daleks." Seriously, do it.
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Aug 29, 2014 03:44
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You guys got me thinking about Troughton and now I want Power of the Daleks to get found already.
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Aug 29, 2014 03:45
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Now, while the Enemy of the World did it first and had it more integrated into the actual plot I do prefer the secondary element from The Invasion of the Dinosaurs that the people think they're on a spaceship, not just in a bunker. It's so absurd.
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Aug 29, 2014 03:45
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Eiba posted:That thought occurred to me as I was thinking over what a nice parallel the robot was to the Doctor. The reflective plate thing and forgetting where they got their faces was pretty obvious, but really nice, I thought. It also seemed like there was a parallel between the robots search for the Promised Land and the Doctor's search for Gallifrey. Pretty much all of the Doctor's speech to the robot could have applied to himself... which made it really dark that his conclusion was, "so you should kill yourself." Let's not forget where the Doctor is emotionally. He just spent 900 years staring at a crack that was his only link to Gallifrey which previously he thought he'd destroyed. He spent all that time defending a town from the impossible situation where if Gallifrey came back, the universe could be embroiled in another time war, and every one of his former enemies (and some allies) wanted to destroy the town and him to stop it. He wanted Gallifrey back, but he had to give up on it. This happened a regeneration ago and months ago for us, but only a few hours ago for him... It might makes some sense that he was having dark thoughts vis a vis Gallifrey. Espilae posted:So what's the tumbler verdict on Twelve? Is it still incessant screaming about how old he is or were they sufficiently pandered to in the first half of Deep Breath like apparently they were supposed to? Maybe DoctorWhat (he being one foot in both camps) can enlighten us? For what it's worth, my mother is not on board. But her favorites are Tennant and Davison ("the young one, from the old show") and she never really got into Smith. She still says he's "too old"...even though she and Capaldi are about the same age. :tuss:
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Aug 29, 2014 03:52
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The Ice Warriors is great but it has one of the largest percentages of Victoria screaming of any of the serials, I think.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:25
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Espilae posted:So what's the tumbler verdict on Twelve? Is it still incessant screaming about how old he is or were they sufficiently pandered to in the first half of Deep Breath like apparently they were supposed to? Maybe DoctorWhat (he being one foot in both camps) can enlighten us? Tumblr, or at least the quite varied parts of it I frequent, has loved Capaldi and been eager for an older Doctor who won't have a romance plot with his companion more or less since he was announced. That's excepting the first annoyance that he was yet another white man, of course.
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Aug 29, 2014 04:54
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howe_sam posted:I mean I get that everyone on the show wanted something flashier and definitive for the pair to go out on, it just...didn't quite work. Although Angels Take Manhattan does has my all time favorite joke in the history of Doctor Who I would've been happy with "Make the Superbowl" personally. 
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Aug 29, 2014 05:40
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computer parts posted:I would've been happy with "Make the Superbowl" personally. Wish I could go back to the beginning of the season, put some money on the Cubs...
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Aug 29, 2014 06:21
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X-posting from the Toxx thread:Angry Salami posted:I mean, it's not like the cybermen are a bad idea, it's just the execution that's always been poo poo. Start from scratch, redesign them to actually look menacing - or at least mobile - that's a good idea if you're really determined to bring them back. But no, we get the same b-grade robot suits, just now with a corporate logo. Wheee. DoctorWhat posted:Just do this made out of parts that you have a budget for:
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Aug 29, 2014 06:25
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The problem, I think, is that we've changed how we think of technology. We instinctively see it as something to liberate us and make everything easier, and i think that makes it harder for people to see tech as something encumbering that makes us worse. The most striking thing about the Tenth Planet look is that they're very clearly weighed down by all that gear. Also it's hard to direct someone weighed down like that without losing the sense of menace. It's far from impossible though. Have Jesse Armstrong adapt Spare Parts and give it to someone talented to direct, and you've basically got the start of Cybermen being thematically coherent and interesting for the first time since years before most of us were born.
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Aug 29, 2014 06:30
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Republican Vampire posted:adapt Spare Parts Republican Vampire posted:adapt Spare Parts Republican Vampire posted:adapt Spare Parts Republican Vampire posted:adapt Spare Parts Republican Vampire posted:adapt Spare Parts yes
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Aug 29, 2014 06:33
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I did like the episode where the Cybermen try to make the Doctor into the new planner/designer dude, though that had waaaaay more to do with Smith's acting in that episode than it did the Cybermen themselves.
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Aug 29, 2014 06:35
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You have to pick the right person though. I mentioned Armstrong because of his Black Mirror episode, but gently caress, maybe they should just give the Cybermen to Brooker. Tech, our reliance on it, and how it ruins everything is what he's all about...
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Aug 29, 2014 06:37
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Just give Doctor Who as a whole to Brooker.
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Aug 29, 2014 06:38
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Actually... yeah. He's a fan. He has a history or producing internationally successful, idea-driven science fiction. Why hasn't he written for the show, and why isn't he in talks to replace GMS?
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Aug 29, 2014 06:41
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I'm probably gonna get hate for this, but I actually like the current Cyberman design. The creepy robo-zombies have an appeal, of course, but the current designs are actually really good at something very simple that, while admittedly not a big part of how they're used, actually sets them apart from the rest of the usual stable of monsters: They're actually physically intimidating. As dangerous as a Dalek is, they don't actually look that terrifying. Nor does an Angel; it's just a statue. The Master is just one man, and no matter how big he acts or what he's using, he's just a guy. Of all the recurring enemies that the new series has used, the Cybermen are the only ones that don't need to demonstrate their power. As a group they're a huge, solitary, disciplined force, but even one Cyberman is still a big guy, with some dangerous weapons. The suits aren't the most mobile, granted, but their stature can still permit some powerful movements and images. I understand that with this design, they've lost the inherent horror of the concept (although there's still some good fear in the Cybermen when used right). But the current Cybermen can pull off plain old, no-nonsense strength and intimidation better than any other enemy the Doctor has, and I think there's something to be said about that. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Aug 29, 2014 |
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Aug 29, 2014 06:53
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The season of The Impossible Astronaut is my favorite season. Don't hit me.
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Aug 29, 2014 07:18
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For me the best use of the Cybermen in the revival was the single broken one guarding the Pandorica. Probably because it best represented my idea of the true horror of the Cybermen - they've gone so far beyond the initial parameters of their imperative to "survive" that an organic brain is still considered a vital component.... but one is considered as good as any other. The individual has been completely lost, they're just mindlessly continuing on because somewhere at the very core of their programming is the undeniable but now long redundant imperative of,"WE MUZZZZT SURVIVE". The Big Finish story where the 8th Doctor replies to that by asking,"Why?" is a fantastic goddamn moment, because the Cybermen can't even fathom what it is he is asking.
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Aug 29, 2014 07:36
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Jerusalem posted:It kind of wraps back to Impossible Astronaut when the younger Doctor immediately picks up that they're hiding something from him and immediately refuses to take a step further because he's pissed they think they can pull the wool over his eyes. This is probably the best part of that season. the doctor is all giddy and traipsing around the tardis controls like usual, and then slows down, sits down and goes "no, don't ever think you are capable of playing games with me." Smith does that scene great.
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Aug 29, 2014 09:15
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howe_sam posted:I mean I get that everyone on the show wanted something flashier and definitive for the pair to go out on, it just...didn't quite work. I mentioned - either earlier in this thread or at the end of the last one - that this probably has a lot to do with the demands and expectations of contemporary television (and perhaos genre television especially) as compared with Classic Who. In the classic series, a companion could leave the TARDIS and never really look back (unless they died). The Doctor would wish them well and continue with someone new next week. To some degree, this isn't necessarily an option for the new series - my impression is that contemporary audiences would be more likely to ask, "Well, why couldn't the Doctor just go back and see/rescue his friends after they leave?" Do you see what I mean? This is why Rose was trapped in Pete's universe at the end of season two, why Donna had her memories erased, and why Amy and Rory are stuck in the past in what's essentially a time-breaking paradox minefield. The writers needed to come up with a watertight explanation for why the Doctor just couldn't go back to see them once the actors left, and it sometimes felt just a wee bit too neat, if you get my meaning. Obviously, the big exception is Martha, but I suppose she's an odd case owing to a host of issue's arising from her characterisation as "Rose's replacement" early on in season three (Jerusalem's reviews went into a lot of detail on this point).
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Aug 29, 2014 11:35
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It’s more the image of the updated Cybermen that make me respect them more. I know technology, special effects, and costumes march on, but no matter how good the story or engaging the plot, to me the Cybermen were just guys in silver tarps and a few metal pieces. The cyber-conversion in Revenge of the Cybermen freaked me out more than anything the Cybermen themselves ever did. Whenever I listened to Spare Parts and The Harvest, my thought of the half-human/half-Cybermen beings were more in line with the Cybermen from the new series, not the old one. The updated (upgraded?) Cybermen just look menacing. They’re imposing. They march in unison, steel boots stomping in time. Their faces and voices show absolutely no emotion, and neither do their voices and inflections. Where the Daleks are a roiling storm moving in quasi-unison, screaming for vengeance, the Cybermen move as one fluid unit, a wall of metal. As an aside, is anyone a little worried that we’re getting the Daleks SO early in Twelve’s run? I know they have to show up every season, but it just feels weird that the second episode is already the Dalek one. Last time we got one so early in a Doctor’s tenure, it was Victory of the Daleks…
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Aug 29, 2014 12:34
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If you want a menacing, uniform, emotionless, perfectly in time metal menace just use robots. What makes the cybermen unique is the conceptual/body horror elements so they should be designed with that in mind.
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Aug 29, 2014 12:37
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I kind of enjoy how in (I think) the commentary for "Attack of the Cybermen", Colin Baker and David Banks make a whole bunch of jokes about the Cyber-Leader's constant exclamations of "EXCELLENT!" even when things are going all wrong for him.
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Aug 29, 2014 12:37
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If you want a menacing, uniform, emotionless, perfectly in time metal menace just use robots. What makes the cybermen unique is the conceptual/body horror elements so they should be designed with that in mind. Oh yeah, the scenes in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday of Cyber-conversion and all the whirring, sawing, cutting, screaming…it’s why the Borg, before they got ruined, freaked me out so much as well and why, of all the non-horror movies, First Contact is one that causes me squirm and shiver the most.
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Aug 29, 2014 12:41
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odd that you say that. everything that went wrong with the Borg started in First Contact. it ruined them. Voyager just raked over the corpse a few times.
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Aug 29, 2014 13:16
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CobiWann posted:As an aside, is anyone a little worried that we’re getting the Daleks SO early in Twelve’s run? I know they have to show up every season, but it just feels weird that the second episode is already the Dalek one. Last time we got one so early in a Doctor’s tenure, it was Victory of the Daleks… I'm kind of happy about it, because it's almost like they're not even wasting time. "Ahh, gently caress it, we all wanna see Capaldi fight the Daleks, he's probably asked for it himself, so let's just get it out of the way quickly so we can get on with things." MrL_JaKiri posted:If you want a menacing, uniform, emotionless, perfectly in time metal menace just use robots. What makes the cybermen unique is the conceptual/body horror elements so they should be designed with that in mind. I don't see why these two things can't be done by the same enemies. Yes, the body horror and 'they used to be people' side of things is important, and it's the core of a lot of their great moments. But that goes just as well with the Cybermen as we see them now as a theoretical evolution of the original design, in a different way that's arguably easier to pull off. Every Cyberman used to be an individual person, and somewhere in that big hulking mechanical man is their remains... but there's so little of them left in there that all semblance of individuality is gone. They're all in identical lockstep, because no matter how they got in there, the Cyberman machine has co-opted their entire being. It's a question of which side of things is at the forefront; the 'unfeeling machine' side of the Cybermen, or the 'long-gone ex-human' side. I'd say a good Cyberman story should be able to showcase both, but there's nothing wrong with emphasising the former over the latter. It's probably far easier for the costume department, and far easier to both write and perform stories about (remember that the bulky Cybermen are hardly incapable of the horror side of things). Sure, they don't exactly wear their origin on their sleeve like this, but getting to be the most visually imposing enemy the Doctor faces is hardly an unfair exchange. The way I see it, you can just write more stories with the current Cybermen. After all, it's not like being bulky and intimidating stopped them from being the enemy in Closing Time, or from their strong scene in The Pandorica Opens. And then you have stuff like Nightmare in Silver, which is a story that could only ever have been told with the current Cybermen.
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Aug 29, 2014 13:38
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Cerv posted:odd that you say that. everything that went wrong with the Borg started in First Contact. They really started to problematic in the Descent two-parter, but it was almost the opposite kind of problem. First Contact ignored everything about the series except for "Picard was assimilated once", but Descent was straight up Silver Age comics "let's mash these two villains together" with Lore and The Borg Who Couldn't Stop Feeling Feelings. I really liked I, Borg, though and wish it had been the last Borg story.
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Aug 29, 2014 13:50
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If you want a menacing, uniform, emotionless, perfectly in time metal menace just use robots. What makes the cybermen unique is the conceptual/body horror elements so they should be designed with that in mind. Yeah, it's the kind of uncanny valley thing. A collapsing human with a sheen of robot parts over them and a voice that's human somewhere at its base but is somehow off and unsettling, something they've just missed at for most of Doctor Who's run. I don't think the cloth mask Cybermen would really work in HD (the giant lamps they carry around are also about as silly as that Sempaphore Version of Wuthering Heights Python sketch), but an update to that kind of thinking in their design would do wonders to making them a bit more menacing. I don't know what you do about the Daleks, though.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:10
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Descent worked much better at the time. When you don't have a load of other later appearances of the Borg hanging over it, you can see it for the proper end to the Borg that it wants to be. The Collective has collapsed, and this ragtag bunch are all thats left. A bit like how Blink works better without Angels in Manhattan.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:13
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CobiWann posted:As an aside, is anyone a little worried that we’re getting the Daleks SO early in Twelve’s run? I know they have to show up every season, but it just feels weird that the second episode is already the Dalek one. Last time we got one so early in a Doctor’s tenure, it was Victory of the Daleks… Totally agree, and I love the Daleks. One of the things I liked about season 6 is it gave the Daleks a rest for the most part. But they've showed up a ton since then, between Asylum, and Day of the Doctor, and Time of the Doctor, I think they could use a break. That's one thing I don't like about the show right now, you can pretty much guarantee every season is going to have a Cybermen episode and a Dalek episode.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:22
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I don't want to turn this into a complete Star Trek hijack but the Borg have always, even in their early episodes, seemed like boring, bargain basement Cybermen to me (and I don't even like most of the Cybermen stories!). The only reason they're supposed to be so scary in the first few episodes is because a character who's more or less literally a god tells everyone they're scary. Their BIG TERRIFYING HIVE VOICE just sounds like a bored group of Catholics reciting the Creed, their little regeneration stations look like they were built from a Spencer's Gifts at the mall, and they move very much like people trying to act like zombies. Something to cover their faces might have helped, but the blank stare that none of the extras who play them can quite pull off just makes it look like they're all pulling a prank. They were ruined as soon they were introduced.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:27
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I'm happy they are getting the Daleks out of the way. There are no stakes with them. Everyone will survive and they will be defeated and in the next episode everyone is happy again and cracking jokes. The greatest threat to the galaxy is just a joke at this point. This Doctor deserves a foe worthy of him.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:31
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I'm pretty sure the reason they're doing a Dalek episode is because Peter Capaldi, being a Doctor Who fan his entire life, really wanted to be in one. 
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Aug 29, 2014 15:44
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Bicyclops posted:I don't want to turn this into a complete Star Trek hijack but the Borg have always, even in their early episodes, seemed like boring, bargain basement Cybermen to me (and I don't even like most of the Cybermen stories!). There is also that episode in which they capture Picard and it looks like he might be written off the series. They also destroyed a shitload of Starfleet ships.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:46
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Plavski posted:I'm happy they are getting the Daleks out of the way. There are no stakes with them. Everyone will survive and they will be defeated and in the next episode everyone is happy again and cracking jokes. The greatest threat to the galaxy is just a joke at this point. This Doctor deserves a foe worthy of him. daleks are fuckin awesome and i will never be tired of them
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Aug 29, 2014 15:53
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Bicyclops posted:The only reason they're supposed to be so scary in the first few episodes is because a character who's more or less literally a god tells everyone they're scary. I disagree entirely. Q-Who does have Q and Guinan telling the crew that there are things out there that they're not ready for, but it also follows it up with the crew following usual procedure and everything they do fails almost entirely. Their one success is damaging the tractor beam so that they can try (and fail) to run away. The Enterprise is totally defeated and most importantly the Borg are not. "Victory" in that episode is having most of the crew survive because Q took the ones that hadn't died home. I don't know what else they could have done to make them a more credible threat. The only real problem with the episode is the comedy vignette at the start with the new ensign who quite fancies Geordi but oh no she accidentally spilt hot chocolate on captain Picard what a to do! Cleretic posted:And then you have stuff like Nightmare in Silver, which is a story that could only ever have been told with the current Cybermen. The conversation has moved on a bit, but... god forbid we lose Nightmare in Silver!
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Aug 29, 2014 15:59
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Bicyclops posted:I'm pretty sure the reason they're doing a Dalek episode is because Peter Capaldi, being a Doctor Who fan his entire life, really wanted to be in one. No way, he should've had an episode with a really obscure villain from Hartnell's era like the Meddling Monk to show his true Who chops. What a sellout 
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Aug 29, 2014 16:01
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Plavski posted:No way, he should've had an episode with a really obscure villain from Hartnell's era like the Meddling Monk to show his true Who chops. What a sellout DoctorWhat posted:From the Doctor Who World Tour Q&A in Rio: 
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Aug 29, 2014 16:05
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Bicyclops posted:I'm pretty sure the reason they're doing a Dalek episode is because Peter Capaldi, being a Doctor Who fan his entire life, really wanted to be in one. I thought it was because they have to be in every season in some capacity or there'll be some sort of legal kerfuffle with the Nation estate.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:07
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Bicyclops posted:I don't want to turn this into a complete Star Trek hijack but the Borg have always, even in their early episodes, seemed like boring, bargain basement Cybermen to me (and I don't even like most of the Cybermen stories!). The Borg just scratch at my subconscious like a wet sponge across patterned wallpaper for some strange reason. But I just have weird opinions, I guess. I prefer Six's blue coat after all! By the way, that whole terror alert raise in the UK. Please tell me it's not because the Tumblr fangirls are getting out of hand...
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Aug 29, 2014 16:17
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