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Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

Zero VGS posted:

I could keep pushing the newer place for a better offer, or just say gently caress it and keep applying at more places?

These are your options.

Zero VGS posted:

I mostly just don't have time to apply/interview because I'm swamped.

Well then I guess you're screwed! (Make it happen or it will never happen.)

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stuxracer
May 4, 2006

Zero VGS posted:

Welp, sounds like I'm undervaluing myself. I'm gonna have to figure out what to do today. Try to strongarm this place into another raise, go back to my first plan of lowering myself to 20/hr here and test the waters at the new place, or I could keep pushing the newer place for a better offer, or just say gently caress it and keep applying at more places? I mostly just don't have time to apply/interview because I'm swamped.
You work for idiots and people taking advantage of you if everything you say is true. Trying to stay there is a dumb decision.

When you were in the military how would you have reacted if they asked you to buy your own bullets that they refund later?

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

stuxracer posted:

When you were in the military how would you have reacted if they asked you to buy your own bullets that they refund later?

I guess you were never in the military... just kidding. It would never happen. When I was in they didn't give us bullets. I stood gate watch with a walkie talkie (granted, at a US base). But using your own funds is unimaginable.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Zero VGS posted:

Welp, sounds like I'm undervaluing myself. I'm gonna have to figure out what to do today. Try to strongarm this place into another raise, go back to my first plan of lowering myself to 20/hr here and test the waters at the new place, or I could keep pushing the newer place for a better offer, or just say gently caress it and keep applying at more places? I mostly just don't have time to apply/interview because I'm swamped.

You're in a major metropolitan area with a skillset worth 50% more than what you're making, not $5k (and probably more, I'm just not familiar with average wages in Boston).

You're not going to be able to "strongarm" them into getting anything near what you're worth. You also shouldn't take a $5k raise and work 60hrs/wk, especially with a pay cut at the current job.

You should give up on being a lead engineer at a new company or pursuing titles. Instead, play less video games and use that time apply for positions that look like they're just above what you think you can do. Leave work to go interview. Even if you're hourly, if you're so swamped you can't even apply and you think you can swing night work here if you go somewhere else, coming in at night to make up the hours shouldn't be a problem, right?

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

evol262 posted:

You're in a major metropolitan area with a skillset worth 50% more than what you're making, not $5k (and probably more, I'm just not familiar with average wages in Boston).

Seriously I wouldn't take less than 80k in his position...

mattfl
Aug 27, 2004

Zero VGS posted:

Welp, sounds like I'm undervaluing myself. I'm gonna have to figure out what to do today. Try to strongarm this place into another raise, go back to my first plan of lowering myself to 20/hr here and test the waters at the new place, or I could keep pushing the newer place for a better offer, or just say gently caress it and keep applying at more places? I mostly just don't have time to apply/interview because I'm swamped.

I work in Orlando in a very large healthcare company and our helpdesk idiots start at 45k. You are way way under valuing yourself.

stuxracer
May 4, 2006

Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:

I guess you were never in the military...
True. Maybe not the best comparison because of the whole uniform thing, but still.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy
Ha, I was gonna bring up the uniform thing.

evol262 posted:

You should give up on being a lead engineer at a new company or pursuing titles. Instead, play less video games and use that time apply for positions that look like they're just above what you think you can do. Leave work to go interview. Even if you're hourly, if you're so swamped you can't even apply and you think you can swing night work here if you go somewhere else, coming in at night to make up the hours shouldn't be a problem, right?

OK, you're right. I play videogames for like 1 hour a week though to be fair. Most of my free time is posting, and entertaining the S.O.

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go
A video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJ6yqQRAQs

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Daylen Drazzi posted:

Four words come to mind - Goon. In. A. Well (okay, three words and a vowel). For God's sake someone take away his loving shovel.

a is a word :science:

Bloodborne
Sep 24, 2008

E: Was already said by like, everyone in this thread. Carry on.

stubblyhead
Sep 13, 2007

That is treason, Johnny!

Fun Shoe
It's unlikely that this other place is going to give you anything close to a fair offer. They've already marked you as a sucker, and that doesn't really wash off. I would tell them no thanks and move on. If you haven't already, read this: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




Either way, if you want to stay there and stay on your salary, stop loving using your personal credit card for company expenses of that magnitude.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.
Your debt-to-income ratio is going to look hilarious if you go to apply for a mortgage in the next few years.

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
Hidden con to having a fat foodie boss: Recommending a place for lunch that he ends up hating may cost you your job, or at the least his trust. Guess he's not a fan of my sushi joint :( I just keep getting texts that say "your dead"

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

Sepist posted:

Hidden con to having a fat foodie boss: Recommending a place for lunch that he ends up hating may cost you your job, or at the least his trust. Guess he's not a fan of my sushi joint :( I just keep getting texts that say "your dead"

Respond "you're"

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
HAHA oh man I may as well just pack my desk at that point

Bloodborne
Sep 24, 2008

Sepist posted:

Hidden con to having a fat foodie boss: Recommending a place for lunch that he ends up hating may cost you your job, or at the least his trust. Guess he's not a fan of my sushi joint :( I just keep getting texts that say "your dead"

Respond "my dead what?"

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go
Man makes 6 figures, still has to tip toe with psycho boss.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Didn't we just have a few pages over how IT Titles are essentially meaningless?

My official title is Senior System Administrator but that doesn't mean I'd be apply to simply move to another employer and get the average salary of $75,000 per year. To make a decent judgement we'd need to know your actual day-to-day activities.

Second, I wouldn't be putting any actual big purchases on my own credit card such as a server but I regularly float a grand or two of company expenses on my personal credit card since I travel quite a bit. It's never been a problem, I pay them off before any interest and you can get some free stuff that isn't junk like airline miles and $50 giftcards to all sorts of stores.

We actually had company CC's at one point but the sales guys kept buying booze with them :ha:

Super Slash
Feb 20, 2006

You rang ?
Lordy... the only time I've ever bought stuff for the company was raiding the petty cash to walk out and pick up some bolts. And paying £90 in an Apple store for a bunch of charging plugs/cables, and I got them to wire me the money first before going out.

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

evol262 posted:

Respond "you're"

My boss sent me a slide deck to proof read and I fixed every tiny little error I could find and wrote back a descriptive feedback response.

I told him "You get a gold star and an 'E' for Effort". He called me a grammar Nazi, and then sent me another one to proof read. I replied "Heil, mein Fuhrer".

The next day, we filled his office with pink "It's a girl!" balloons (unrelated), and during a meeting I photoshopped a picture of J. J. Jameson with a comic-text balloon of a phrase my boss commonly says and put it on the projector.

I have the best boss.

Dans Macabre
Apr 24, 2004


Zero VGS everything you're saying here has been extremely upsetting to me. Please find a new job (but not the job offer you just got, a better one)

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy

NevergirlsOFFICIAL posted:

Zero VGS everything you're saying here has been extremely upsetting to me. Please find a new job (but not the job offer you just got, a better one)

Yeah sorry, when I take a step back my main problem is that I have a super-low cost of living (bought a condo and paid it off, spend about $300 a month for my complete living expenses) so I can get complacent because it feels like I'm wealthier than I actually am. I should buckle down and get something more appropriate. At least a job where there's people to learn from, because I'm not picking up any new skills here except how to MacGuyver the entire network on things like the free edition VMware, because this place won't invest a dime in infrastructure or training.

I actually first came on this job when my old place laid everyone off, it was a temp position and they made me permanent a year in because I made a fuss over being permatemp. I stand up for myself but not as much as I should.

air-
Sep 24, 2007

Who will win the greatest battle of them all?

Update on what happened since I posted this.

Got an offer for 40k and they're unwilling to push any higher. Recruiter even mentioned being aware that their salary is below market rate, so how are they expecting to fill these positions :psyduck: Gut tells me to move onward and try somewhere else.

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
It doesn't sound like a very technical position from what you posted earlier which is probably why the salary is so low. If you're not comfortable with that salary then keep looking. On paper it doesn't seem like it would be much of a career move either.

Methanar
Sep 26, 2013

by the sex ghost
.

Methanar fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Aug 6, 2016

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

Man makes 6 figures, still has to tip toe with psycho boss.

No, that makes perfect sense. The higher you are in the food chain, the more insane people you have to directly appease on a daily basis. poo poo, the triple CCIE consulting firm owner probably has to deal with the most insane people of them all: C-level clients.

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
Actually my boss is pretty chill as long as you work under him and not for someone else (or give him bad lunch recommendations), he busts everyone else balls and takes the heat for everyone under him when necessary. Hell I knocked out public wifi for a whole state for 9 hours and he just laughed at me for missing such an easy post-check. His boss however, is pretty crazy - Triple CCIE VP who is too smart for his own good.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy
One other question, I feel dumb for asking but I've never had an offer for a job with a bonus in it.

When they say my salary includes "$5000 Target Bonus" that means don't count on seeing a penny of it right? It's a startup with a few hundred people and they have some companies investing in them that even I've heard of, but still.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


Yeah don't consider it part of the salary.

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

around and around we go
You're never see anything beyond your base salary.

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up
Came in to see 70 posts and expected nothing short of a full-scale DAF meltdown.

Came away thinking "Zero, if you accept a counter-offer from these assholes, I will cut you."

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

Methanar posted:

Not as exciting or horrific as the other 70 posts today but:

After 12 hours of college for being a network engineer and I've learned what an IP address is, grade 8 algebra (How to round!) and how super serious hard the program is. The instructors apparently don't talk with each other much either because I've gotten 3 different people all contradicting themselves over school supplies. One guy is telling me I need a 512gb ssd for running like 6 vms (wat) and someone else is saying 360 (these aren't even sold in my city) and someone else is saying 256 would be okay. After emailing the guy who I think is in charge about it and saying how I don't think one win7 vm takes 80gb of space he sends me this message that comes off very frustrated saying how it was clearly stated that 512 was necessary.

Sounds like you're learning the soft skills required to put up with all the BS and inconsistencies of the real IT world! :thumbsup:

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


psydude posted:

most insane people of them all: C-level clients.

I have no idea how anyone is able to do this in the first place, still maintain employment and their sanity.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

Tab8715 posted:

I have no idea how anyone is able to do this in the first place, still maintain employment and their sanity.

The only logical way to do it is as the partner in a consulting firm, so that at the end of the day you climb into your Aventador and begin the drive to your palatial estate and forget about the psychotic board members and CEOs that are your clients day in and day out.

stubblyhead
Sep 13, 2007

That is treason, Johnny!

Fun Shoe

MC Fruit Stripe posted:

You're never see anything beyond your base salary.

That's a bit harsh. He certainly shouldn't expect it, but at least a partial payout is possible. It depends entirely on the finances of the company, and more importantly how willing they'll be to share the wealth.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.
In reference to the initial question, you should never "count on" a bonus for the purposes of long-term financial planning. The company isn't contractually obligated to pay you anything at the end of the year. It's good to have, and spend it or invest it as you see fit, but don't stick the bonus into your mortgage budget unless it's for paying down extra principal.

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Misogynist posted:

In reference to the initial question, you should never "count on" a bonus for the purposes of long-term financial planning. The company isn't contractually obligated to pay you anything at the end of the year. It's good to have, and spend it or invest it as you see fit, but don't stick the bonus into your mortgage budget unless it's for paying down extra principal.

I saw a documentary about the stress that counting on bonuses can put on your mental well being and how it can negatively affect your family. I think it was called National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Whether you can count on a bonus or not depends entirely on how your employment contract is structured. Generally if they don't lay out specific criteria for receiving the bonus, and don't include hard numbers describing how much it will be, then you probably shouldn't count on it. Anything that you want and expect to be paid should be detailed in the employment contract along with the criteria for receiving that pay. Anything they promise beyond that doesn't exist.

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