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evobatman
Jul 30, 2006

it means nothing, but says everything!
Pillbug

dogstile posted:

I honestly feel bad for most of the salaried people here. I'm salaried, but if I do overtime I get paid at an hourly rate. Good thing too, I would not work 32 hour weekends without it.

(site installations are awful when they go wrong, by the way. Thanks for asking)

Salary+hourly OT here too. Being on an offshore oilrig for 5 16 hour days over a weekend was amusing when I got my paycheck.

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H.R. Paperstacks
May 1, 2006

This is America
My president is black
and my Lambo is blue
DoD Contractor here and we are salary w/flex time within same pay period only. If flexing time within same pay period isn't an option due to project timelines, etc then we bill OT, but it is at our effective hourly rate, not 1.5x. The OT option is essentially because it is illegal to do work for the government that is not paid for.

When I was at the CLEC/ISP I was salary with no OT or flex, but I never was hassled about leaving early if it was slow and still got a full 80hr paycheck and didn't have to use PTO/vacation. We really only got pushed to use PTO/vacation if we were taking consecutive days off that were planned.

That is the bonus of salary positions, sure you are expected to work more than 80hrs if necessary, but if it's slow, you still get your full 80hrs of pay when you duck out an hour or two early a couple days in a pay period.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

I'm salary but I can't remember the last time I worked late or weekends. The worst it gets is if I spend an hour at home updating servers at 10pm while drinking a few beers and watching Netflix. Not too bad.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair
I'm salaried with OT, but it kicks in when work is done between certain hours, not by hours worked per week. In fact, according to the handbook I am expected to work a minimum of 40 per week.

So pretty much I can get stuck doing 11 hour days more than once per week and get no OT. I can even work more since my job is at least half "glorified courier" nowadays so I'll get back to the office at 7:30 PM to drop off some stuff after getting in at 8:30 AM!

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




Inspector_666 posted:

I'm salaried with OT, but it kicks in when work is done between certain hours, not by hours worked per week.

In fact, according to the handbook I am expected to work a minimum of 40 per week.

So pretty much I can get stuck doing 11 hour days more than once per week and get no OT.

H.R. Paperstacks posted:

you are expected to work more than 80hrs if necessary

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

air-
Sep 24, 2007

Who will win the greatest battle of them all?

CLAM DOWN posted:

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

Sadly that's just how it works in the US and progress is awful as far as getting people's mindset to change. We don't wanna be like those other first world countries! We're 'merica!!

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

GreenNight posted:

I'm salary but I can't remember the last time I worked late or weekends. The worst it gets is if I spend an hour at home updating servers at 10pm while drinking a few beers and watching Netflix. Not too bad.

Yeah, this is how I am as well. The company I work for is global though, so we can have the guys in the UK or India patch our systems while we're all at home getting a good nights sleep, and then we can return the favor for them. It's rare I have to work late, probably happens once a quarter. I don't even check my email once I get home. I have little kids and from 6PM to 9PM it's kiddo time. No one ever regretted spending time with their kids instead of working, that's for sure.

I'm kind of in that IT sweet spot to be honest. Big enough team and budget to get things done, but the company isn't so big it's a bureaucratic nightmare to deal with.

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!

CLAM DOWN posted:

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

Pretty much because I can't just up and move to the utopia you live in.

Otherwise I'd be there like now.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

CLAM DOWN posted:

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

This is America; Lower your expectations.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair

CLAM DOWN posted:

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

I loving hate my job and spend my days full of barely checked rage.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

CLAM DOWN posted:

Jesus, how are you guys so nonchalant about this?! How can you handle living/working somewhere that treats you like this, with no basic labour laws?

I am all :stare: right now.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




Inspector_666 posted:

I loving hate my job and spend my days full of barely checked rage.

:(

Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:

Pretty much because I can't just up and move to the utopia you live in.

Otherwise I'd be there like now.

Pfft it's no utopia, I live in one of the most expensive places in my country with an average salary. But basic labour laws that ensure you get compensated for all hours you work aren't really a luxury, they should be expected!!

Lil Miss Clackamas
Jan 25, 2013

ich habe aids

CLAM DOWN posted:

But basic labour laws that ensure you get compensated for all hours you work aren't really a luxury, they should be expected!!

"Labor" is a dirty word in American lexicon, especially if you pair it with "law". Americans will sacrifice themselves and their family if it means enriching their employer even marginally. It's especially bad in IT where it's mostly Randian untermensch and endless startups who will behead you on film if you even mention the word "union". And the only people who own guns are the ones who would defend to the death their "right to work" for nothing. Everything here is a race, and it's always to the bottom. We really are a bunch of retarded creatures.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.
My hours over 40 are basically folded into my annual salary. *StArTuP LiFe*

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




Chalets the Baka posted:

"Labor" is a dirty word in American lexicon, especially if you pair it with "law". Americans will sacrifice themselves and their family if it means enriching their employer even marginally. It's especially bad in IT where it's mostly Randian untermensch and endless startups who will behead you on film if you even mention the word "union". And the only people who own guns are the ones who would defend to the death their "right to work" for nothing. Everything here is a race, and it's always to the bottom. We really are a bunch of retarded creatures.

I was gonna ask if unionizing was a possibility for some of you. But now I get the impression that even mentioning it would cause your employer to literally implode :( And I'm guessing you'd be fired for trying to form a union or join one :(

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair
There's an SEIU office across the street from ours :v:

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
Been salaried since I graduated college. Have only worked on weekends on 4 different occasions for several hours at most and was given comp time as a result.

When you're hourly, you're being paid for your time. When you're salaried, you're being paid for your skills and your level of responsibility. The latter is always more economically advantageous unless you're working direct labor for a client.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

CLAM DOWN posted:

I was gonna ask if unionizing was a possibility for some of you. But now I get the impression that even mentioning it would cause your employer to literally implode :( And I'm guessing you'd be fired for trying to form a union or join one :(

Unions are federally protected, including forming or joining. In many states, your employer can always find another reason to get rid of you, but you cannot be overtly fired for trying to form or join a union.

Not that unionization would really help, except in protecting goons from themselves. The point of exempt salaried employees is that you can work more than 40 hours a week (or 80 per period) without incurring extra costs on your employer, and you work in a role where that's an expected hazard. Like off-hours maintenance or large migrations or emergency on-call or whatever. But you can also leave early if it's slow. And a lot of employers are good about comping time for stuff like this.

It's pretty much the "I'm so important I can't comp time because I'm irreplacable and they can't run without me!" and "woe is me, my employer bends me over the desk every day and I take it, such is salaried life" goons who have problems.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




psydude posted:

When you're salaried, you're being paid for your skills and your level of responsibility.

That's bullshit, there's no valid excuse for not being compensated for all your working hours as a salaried employee, that's called exploitation.

H.R. Paperstacks
May 1, 2006

This is America
My president is black
and my Lambo is blue

CLAM DOWN posted:

That's bullshit, there's no valid excuse for not being compensated for all your working hours as a salaried employee, that's called exploitation.

Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of.

Mechanics work in a similar manner. They bill a set rate for set hours on a job, if they take longer, that's on them, their loss. If they work faster and finish ahead of schedule, they still get the fixed amount and can start on the next job earlier.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

CLAM DOWN posted:

That's bullshit, there's no valid excuse for not being compensated for all your working hours as a salaried employee, that's called exploitation.

Huh. I'm talking about determination between how compensation is calculated. By federal law, salaried employees working over 40 hours per week are supposed to be compensated. The difference is that if I work less than 40 hours per week, I still have to be compensated for 40 hours. Do companies always follow this? No. But being paid for your time is almost always a worse deal than being paid for your skills or for a product.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




^^^ misunderstood you, it's cool


H.R. Paperstacks posted:

Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of.

Mechanics work in a similar manner. They bill a set rate for set hours on a job, if they take longer, that's on them, their loss. If they work faster and finish ahead of schedule, they still get the fixed amount and can start on the next job earlier.

It's not on the employee to not get taken advantage of, it's on the employer to not take advantage of employees...

I guess that's the big legal and cultural difference here.

CLAM DOWN fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 9, 2014

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

CLAM DOWN posted:

It's not on the employee to not get taken advantage of, it's on the employer to not take advantage of employees...

I guess that's the big legal and cultural difference here.

You're really misunderstanding where we're coming from. Legality and culture have nothing to do with it. His point is that when you're salaried or doing contract work, you get paid the same even when you work fewer hours.

JHVH-1
Jun 28, 2002

H.R. Paperstacks posted:

Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of.

Mechanics work in a similar manner. They bill a set rate for set hours on a job, if they take longer, that's on them, their loss. If they work faster and finish ahead of schedule, they still get the fixed amount and can start on the next job earlier.

Mechanics don't get alarms going off in the middle of the night because a customer can't start their car.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




psydude posted:

You're really misunderstanding where we're coming from. Legality and culture have nothing to do with it. His point is that when you're salaried or doing contract work, you get paid the same even when you work fewer hours.

He said "Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of", implying the onus is on the employee to not get taken advantage of by the employer. That's the part I disagreed with.

Lil Miss Clackamas
Jan 25, 2013

ich habe aids

psydude posted:

His point is that when you're salaried or doing contract work, you get paid the same even when you work fewer hours.

Right, but you're also paid the same when you work more hours. That's the point of contention among laborers and that's the shaded part of the graph where you'll find exploitation. Find me an employer that comps you those extra hours and I'll find you fifty that won't. These are the kinds of things that need to be defined through labor law, not at the discretion of an employer.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

CLAM DOWN posted:

He said "Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of", implying the onus is on the employee to not get taken advantage of by the employer. That's the part I disagreed with.

You should always, as an employee, be looking out for yourself. Yes, it would be awesome if labor law or cultural standards kept employers honest in their dealings, but they don't. Some employers are great, but there are also unscrupulous ones that will not hesitate to take advantage of you if you let them. There is a pretty common attitude in America that employers are doing you a favor by employing you, and you don't have the right to ask for anything beyond the paycheck they are gracious enough to give you. The nice thing about IT is that it's important enough, and the skills are uncommon enough, that a good IT worker is not easily replaceable, so you have more leverage than a lot of employees. You should always be prepared to use that leverage when you're being asked to work for many extra hours without compensation.

If you're in a job where you are being asked to work extra hours and you have not laid out your expectations for compensation for those additional hours then you need to remedy that. Whether it's comp time, overtime, or a simple understanding that when things are busy you'll work extra, but when things are slow you're coming in late and leaving early, you need to advocate for yourself. You should also be looking for a new job consistently if you're not being fairly compensated. And when you negotiate with that new employer you should lay out your expectations and ideally get them formalized in your offer.

Labor in America has been so browbeaten that most of us tacitly accept that employers have all of the power because legally they do. But they still NEED employees for their business to function, and as much as they'd like you to believe it, employees aren't fungible. Any one isn't just as good as any other. You should be mindful of that and be comfortable letting your employer know that you're mindful of it, and that you expect to be treated fairly in return for your labor because an employment contract goes both ways, and needs to be a mutually beneficial exchange.

Dick Trauma
Nov 30, 2007

God damn it, you've got to be kind.
I'm not looking forward to the deluge of iPhone 6/6+ demands I'm going to receive. That and I also hate these giant new phones. Not only do they fit poorly in a pocket but they're so skinny they're a bitch to hold.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

H.R. Paperstacks posted:

Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of.

Mechanics work in a similar manner. They bill a set rate for set hours on a job, if they take longer, that's on them, their loss. If they work faster and finish ahead of schedule, they still get the fixed amount and can start on the next job earlier.

Right, because when a server melts down because of a defective piece of hardware and you have to get your rear end into the building to get everything back up and running, that's you not working efficiently enough. :rolleyes:

CLAM DOWN posted:

He said "Work more efficiently and don't get taken advantage of", implying the onus is on the employee to not get taken advantage of by the employer. That's the part I disagreed with.

Right. In theory it's not a problem because the employee can work fewer hours at some point to compensate; if I work my rear end off during a crunch to get a product out the door under a deadline, if I give up a couple evenings or a weekend, you better believe I'm taking a break after it's all over. Not just a little 2-day weekend either; my off hours are worth more to me than an hour in the middle of a Tuesday, so if I give them to you I expect more than a straight-across trade. It's basically OT pay, I just take it in time off, rather than money. And I expect it to not be deducted from my banked PTO either.

The problem with the theory is that many companies in the states don't offer the two-way street. You work a minimum of 40 hours per week, starting at 8:00 on Monday, and if you work more than 40, you get a pat on the back if you're lucky, see you Monday! I don't put up with it myself, but too many people do.

Dick Trauma posted:

I'm not looking forward to the deluge of iPhone 6/6+ demands I'm going to receive. That and I also hate these giant new phones. Not only do they fit poorly in a pocket but they're so skinny they're a bitch to hold.

My email signature last year included "Sent from my iPhone 6 Developer Preview" but nobody commented :(

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




NippleFloss posted:

You should always, as an employee, be looking out for yourself. Yes, it would be awesome if labor law or cultural standards kept employers honest in their dealings, but they don't. Some employers are great, but there are also unscrupulous ones that will not hesitate to take advantage of you if you let them. There is a pretty common attitude in America that employers are doing you a favor by employing you, and you don't have the right to ask for anything beyond the paycheck they are gracious enough to give you. The nice thing about IT is that it's important enough, and the skills are uncommon enough, that a good IT worker is not easily replaceable, so you have more leverage than a lot of employees. You should always be prepared to use that leverage when you're being asked to work for many extra hours without compensation.

If you're in a job where you are being asked to work extra hours and you have not laid out your expectations for compensation for those additional hours then you need to remedy that. Whether it's comp time, overtime, or a simple understanding that when things are busy you'll work extra, but when things are slow you're coming in late and leaving early, you need to advocate for yourself. You should also be looking for a new job consistently if you're not being fairly compensated. And when you negotiate with that new employer you should lay out your expectations and ideally get them formalized in your offer.

Labor in America has been so browbeaten that most of us tacitly accept that employers have all of the power because legally they do. But they still NEED employees for their business to function, and as much as they'd like you to believe it, employees aren't fungible. Any one isn't just as good as any other. You should be mindful of that and be comfortable letting your employer know that you're mindful of it, and that you expect to be treated fairly in return for your labor because an employment contract goes both ways, and needs to be a mutually beneficial exchange.

Fair enough. Things are absolutely legally and culturally different here, with regards to all that, but I see your point as it applies to working in the USA. I seriously wish you guys all the best negotiating that stuff and finding places that treat you fairly, it's something I could never do and am fortunate I don't have to.

Speaking of the iPhone 6, someone here just mentioned in passing that they hope BlackBerry puts out a smartwatch :psyduck:

lampey
Mar 27, 2012

Docjowles posted:

It's explicitly called out in our labor laws that IT work is exempt from overtime pay, in fact!

I am salaried and get paid OT for working more than 8 hours in a day, even if that would be less than 40 a week. For salaried exempt employees in CA its different, but you can still negotiate to be paid overtime, or to not work any overtime.

H.R. Paperstacks
May 1, 2006

This is America
My president is black
and my Lambo is blue

NippleFloss posted:

You should always, as an employee, be looking out for yourself.

This. 100x

Not matter how you are paid by a company, you are a line item on a budget and shouldn't expect the company to do what is in your best interest at any point in time.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair

evol262 posted:

But you can also leave early if it's slow. And a lot of employers are good about comping time for stuff like this.

I want to find one of these places.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010


The Great Twist

CLAM DOWN posted:

Speaking of the iPhone 6, someone here just mentioned in passing that they hope BlackBerry puts out a smartwatch :psyduck:

Are smart watches actually a thing people want / care about? To me they seem like the dumbest things in the world. I can see it if I was in a position where I had to monitor the various health attributes they do, but that can't be a huge market.

TWBalls
Apr 16, 2003
My medication never lies

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

Are smart watches actually a thing people want / care about? To me they seem like the dumbest things in the world. I can see it if I was in a position where I had to monitor the various health attributes they do, but that can't be a huge market.

This is exactly the reason I want one. That and (if it's possible) loading it up with music so that I can work out and listen to music without having my big-rear end phone with me.

air- posted:

Except that new watch requires having an iPhone :yayclod:
I'm on Android, so if I were to get one, it'd likely be a Samsung. I haven't really researched them all that much, so I don't know if they all require them to have a phone nearby or not. It's one of those "It'd be nice to have, but I'm not all that worried about it" type of things.

TWBalls fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Sep 9, 2014

air-
Sep 24, 2007

Who will win the greatest battle of them all?

TWBalls posted:

This is exactly the reason I want one. That and (if it's possible) loading it up with music so that I can work out and listen to music without having my big-rear end phone with me.

Except that new watch requires having an iPhone :yayclod:

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!
I'm waiting on the smart pants or smart hat

Moey
Oct 22, 2010

I LIKE TO MOVE IT
I am also salaried and accrue either overtime pay or extra time off. Both at 1.5x

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

Dick Trauma posted:

I'm not looking forward to the deluge of iPhone 6/6+ demands I'm going to receive. That and I also hate these giant new phones. Not only do they fit poorly in a pocket but they're so skinny they're a bitch to hold.

It's already started in my office. We had some sales users who have been working with busted phones just waiting for today. The look on their faces when I told them that today they were just announcing the release date was priceless.

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YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Inspector_666 posted:

I want to find one of these places.

I've never worked at a place that didn't at least offer comp time at one-to-one for overtime hours and I'm going on my fifth job.

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