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Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Yeah, I've heard about that.

Incidentally, I've also heard that Moench and Dixon named Bane and after Bob Kane, but that seems even less likely.

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SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

Random Stranger posted:

He lost the use of his bedside manner in the car accident, also.

Nope. It's still better then "Whelp your check cleared and that's good. You are going to die."

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

SiKboy posted:

Wasnt Azreals tenure as batman a deliberate "gently caress You" to people who wanted batman to be darker/edgier/ruthless/generally more 90s? Sort of "Here, this is what you are asking for, look how terrible and unbatman-ish it would be". I'm sure I read that somewhere.
Both Azrael and the four Supermen, actually. "Fine, you want an edgy Batman who kills and has toyetic new armor? Bam, there he is, oh what's that, you want the real Batman back and you hate this guy? WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED.

Superman's outdated? Okay then, he's gone! Let's see, what are the biggest trends right now... teen heroes, armored tech heroes, cyborgs, and edgy heroes that kill? You know what, we're nice, we'll give you all four! You can pick your favorite one, that'll be the new Superman, okay? So, which one do you like the best? Oh, what's that, none of them are as good as the original Superman and you don't want any of them to take over? You want the real Superman back? WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED.

Now SHUT UP ABOUT IT this is a bad trend."

HitTheTargets
Mar 3, 2006

I came here to laugh at you.
I don't think I've ever heard that from the horse's mouth, though. Is it just a highly plausible theory?

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



Sunglasses Superman best Superman

SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

HitTheTargets posted:

I don't think I've ever heard that from the horse's mouth, though. Is it just a highly plausible theory?

Not even close to plausible. The entire motivation of death and return of superman was the collectors market cashcow and the books sold gangbusters so there was no "Oh, what's that, none of them are as good as the original Superman and you don't want any of them to take over? You want the real Superman back?" pay off because it wasn't being sold to fans.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


Yeah, those interpretations of KnightsQuest and Death and Return always seemed like DC fans trying to rewrite history to make it seem like DC's bad 90s stuff was somehow clever satire.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

SirDan3k posted:

Not even close to plausible. The entire motivation of death and return of superman was the collectors market cashcow and the books sold gangbusters so there was no "Oh, what's that, none of them are as good as the original Superman and you don't want any of them to take over? You want the real Superman back?" pay off because it wasn't being sold to fans.

I thought it was mainly to delay the impending wedding of Superman and Lois Lane to synchronize with the Dean Cain/Teri Hatcher show.

Benito Cereno
Jan 20, 2006

ALLEZ-OUP!

Lurdiak posted:

Yeah, those interpretations of KnightsQuest and Death and Return always seemed like DC fans trying to rewrite history to make it seem like DC's bad 90s stuff was somehow clever satire.

According to Denny O'Neill, that was the intent with Azrael as Batman.

redbackground
Sep 24, 2007

BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!
Grimey Drawer

Lurdiak posted:

Yeah, those interpretations of KnightsQuest and Death and Return always seemed like DC fans trying to rewrite history to make it seem like DC's bad 90s stuff was somehow clever satire.
I don't know about clever, but JPV was pretty unhinged from the very beginning, and was never going to last long-term.

CapnAndy
Feb 27, 2004

Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

HitTheTargets posted:

I don't think I've ever heard that from the horse's mouth, though. Is it just a highly plausible theory?
We've never gotten an official confirmation on the four Supermen like we did on Azrael, but it's too goddamn pat to ignore, especially when it and KnightsWhatever hit all the same "you don't really want this, let us show you why" beats.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006


It shows too much cleverness on DC's part.

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?


Endless Mike posted:

Sunglasses Superman best Superman

I absolutely love Eradicator and am probably one of the character's biggest fans. That said, his backstory is so confusing that not even I'm sure I have it straight.

His mid-00's redesign was rad as gently caress, though.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Endless Mike posted:

Sunglasses Superman best Superman

He's basically Jean Paul Valley with the 'must PUNISH oh god why do you cry John Connor'

Plus he jobbed Cyborg pretty bad.

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Sep 10, 2014

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

CapnAndy posted:

We've never gotten an official confirmation on the four Supermen like we did on Azrael, but it's too goddamn pat to ignore, especially when it and KnightsWhatever hit all the same "you don't really want this, let us show you why" beats.

It was surely a stunt designed to last only a little while that had the robot designed to be the villain from the start, but the other three were clearly designed to be viable characters and have their own titles. There's no doubt you're supposed to take them seriously, especially Steel.

Ror
Oct 21, 2010

😸Everything's 🗞️ purrfect!💯🤟


Random Stranger posted:

He lost the use of his bedside manner in the car accident, also.

Has Strange ever actually shown insight or expert knowledge about the human brain that might be expected from a neurosurgeon?

I always figured that Stan Lee needed his surgeon to sound really brilliantly impressive so he made him a neurosurgeon, but it's a wholly separate subset of expertise from like a hand surgeon or cardiac surgeon. He should be Wolverine's go-to guy for amnesia questions.

Maybe brain stuff just clashes with magic stuff too much. Never! :doom:

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Ror posted:

Has Strange ever actually shown insight or expert knowledge about the human brain that might be expected from a neurosurgeon?

I always figured that Stan Lee needed his surgeon to sound really brilliantly impressive so he made him a neurosurgeon, but it's a wholly separate subset of expertise from like a hand surgeon or cardiac surgeon. He should be Wolverine's go-to guy for amnesia questions.

Maybe brain stuff just clashes with magic stuff too much. Never! :doom:

I just checked "The Origin of Doctor Strange" (which everyone should have in reach at all times), and he's never called a neurosurgeon in it. In the five panels where he's still a doctor, he acts as a surgeon with no detail on what operation he performed, he refuses to take part in a research project where "We could find the cure for-", and he looks at a head and chest x-ray. Nothing really says neurosurgeon in that to me.

While I'm sure some lazy writer has just dropped "neurosurgeon" into his description, Strange has never been portrayed as one. I checked a few different retellings of his origin (look, they're all next to each other on the shelf, okay) and none of them said anything other than surgeon or gave any hint that he was a neurosurgeon.

Also, it's been implied that he was a surgeon in the 1930's. He doesn't age (though some writers have screwed that up) so a few guys have decided that the original origin from Strange Tales is exactly how it happened with no need for updating.

Mr. Maltose
Feb 16, 2011

The Guffless Girlverine
Strange being a neurosurgeon in specific was actually a major plot detail in Defenders during it's best run.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


redbackground posted:

I don't know about clever, but JPV was pretty unhinged from the very beginning, and was never going to last long-term.

Well yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean they didn't intend for this to catch on as a viable Batman book for the time it lasted. Superior Spider-man was never going to be permanent either but it also wasn't some kind of meta-commentary on the industry designed to teach readers a lesson.

Plus, have you loving read those comics? The stuff with the System and the insane narratives and all that poo poo was clearly in earnest. I mean, Azrael got his own book for a long long time afterwards, just because he was never meant to permanently replace Batman doesn't make the entire exercise some kind of Manchester Black thing. They could have made the point that Batzrael was a lovely Batman in about 1/3rd as many issues, if that was their only intent. Instead he wears the cape for about a hundred combined issues.

redbackground
Sep 24, 2007

BEHOLD!
OPTIC BLAST!
Grimey Drawer

Lurdiak posted:

Well yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean they didn't intend for this to catch on as a viable Batman book for the time it lasted. Superior Spider-man was never going to be permanent either but it also wasn't some kind of meta-commentary on the industry designed to teach readers a lesson.

Plus, have you loving read those comics? The stuff with the System and the insane narratives and all that poo poo was clearly in earnest. I mean, Azrael got his own book for a long long time afterwards, just because he was never meant to permanently replace Batman doesn't make the entire exercise some kind of Manchester Black thing. They could have made the point that Batzrael was a lovely Batman in about 1/3rd as many issues, if that was their only intent. Instead he wears the cape for about a hundred combined issues.
I do agree that Azrael In Charge went on for far too long. KnightsEnd and KnightFall are the perfect lengths, and if KnightQuest was equally about as long (instead of like twice those), I think it all would be a much, much better overall arc.

Also, I am still amazed that his eponymous series lasted as goddman long as it did, even though Denny O'Neil was probably the only one reading it.

Lurdiak posted:

Plus, have you loving read those comics?
Got'em all in hardcover, even.

redbackground fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 10, 2014

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Nehru the Damaja posted:

What's with the 90s palette swap characters like War Machine, US Agent and Vengeance anyway? Are there even more that just didn't take?
From a whiles back, but you also have to remember there was insane pressures from Malibu Comics (Ultraforce), Image, the popularity of Spawn and poo poo like WildC.A.T.S. at the time.

Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005

FilthyImp posted:

From a whiles back, but you also have to remember there was insane pressures from Malibu Comics (Ultraforce), Image, the popularity of Spawn and poo poo like WildC.A.T.S. at the time.

I guess I just don't get why the pressure to be dark and edgy means pressure to transparently rehash your main guys rather than make someone new.

But I guess I wasn't who they were going for. I never liked Wolverine. I read some Venom/Vengeance teamup mini as a kid and it was awful, and I had a subscription to Amazing Spider-Man during the clone crap that pretty much ruined me on comics for a decade.

Dr.Magnificent
Dec 24, 2007

Comes with hands on care.
Fun Shoe

Nehru the Damaja posted:

What's with the 90s palette swap characters like War Machine, US Agent and Vengeance anyway? Are there even more that just didn't take?

Vengeance was an example of trying to expand a brand to get more $$. Ghost Rider selling well? How about EXTREME Ghost Rider? Rhodes first replaced Stark in the early 80s (He was Iron Man during Secret Wars). US Agent was created to be a dark inversion of Captain America, Gru decided to have him stand in for Cap after the success of Beta Ray Bill and Rhodes. You can argue they primarily happen as a way to boost sales (either of the main book or to launch a spin-off book), but creators also enjoy doing it because it creates drama and intrigue easily.

There are tons of them out there too. My favorite forgotten one is Junzo Muto who stole the powers of Iron Fist. Mostly because no one cared enough to enough remember he existed. Christopher Priest had Mephisto repower Danny during his Black Panther run.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I'm pretty sure Doctor Strange : The Oath, was the newest retelling of his origin. Honestly, i've never really cared for Doctor Strange, The Oath being really the only story I've read of his and that Defenders run.

Otherwise I don't know poo poo about him are there any actual really good runs of Doctor Strange other than the Oath and that I think Avengers Annual with him in it and Defenders?

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

Hollismason posted:

I'm pretty sure Doctor Strange : The Oath, was the newest retelling of his origin. Honestly, i've never really cared for Doctor Strange, The Oath being really the only story I've read of his and that Defenders run.

Otherwise I don't know poo poo about him are there any actual really good runs of Doctor Strange other than the Oath and that I think Avengers Annual with him in it and Defenders?

Not a run, but the Marvel OGN Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment is great. And, of course, there's the Lee/Ditko run.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Dr.Magnificent posted:

US Agent was created to be a dark inversion of Captain America, Gru decided to have him stand in for Cap after the success of Beta Ray Bill and Rhodes. You can argue they primarily happen as a way to boost sales (either of the main book or to launch a spin-off book), but creators also enjoy doing it because it creates drama and intrigue easily.

Mark Gruenwald said in a Comics Journal interview I recall around the time that people that didn't like it would just have to deal with it, because the book was headed for cancellation beforehand and doing that story ensured the comic's survival for the time being.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Hollismason posted:

Otherwise I don't know poo poo about him are there any actual really good runs of Doctor Strange other than the Oath and that I think Avengers Annual with him in it and Defenders?

Roger Stern's run from the late 1970s is highly regarded (he also wrote the Triumph and Torment graphic novel) but it's never been collected to the best of my knowledge.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Metal Loaf posted:

Roger Stern's run from the late 1970s is highly regarded (he also wrote the Triumph and Torment graphic novel) but it's never been collected to the best of my knowledge.

It's in Essential Dr. Strange Volume 4.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

I hear good things about the Steve Englehart run too, I think it's the one that introduced Shuma Gorath. Not sure where/if it's collected.

Air Skwirl
May 13, 2007

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

Uncle Boogeyman posted:

I hear good things about the Steve Englehart run too, I think it's the one that introduced Shuma Gorath. Not sure where/if it's collected.

It's in Essential Dr.Strange 3, and I didn't know there was a 4th Essential, so I should pick that up.


Hollismason posted:

I'm pretty sure Doctor Strange : The Oath, was the newest retelling of his origin. Honestly, i've never really cared for Doctor Strange, The Oath being really the only story I've read of his and that Defenders run.

Otherwise I don't know poo poo about him are there any actual really good runs of Doctor Strange other than the Oath and that I think Avengers Annual with him in it and Defenders?

If you dig Silver Age stuff the first 3 Essential Strange are pretty good, but I wouldn't blame you for just skipping over the part where he has a secret identity, also Essential Defenders 1 at least is pretty good too and features Strange, I haven't read the later volumes.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
I'm hoping Strange will be added to the Epic Collection line sooner rather than later.

Or the Roger Stern stuff gets an omnibus. :allears:

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Skwirl posted:

It's in Essential Dr.Strange 3, and I didn't know there was a 4th Essential, so I should pick that up.

Marshall Roger's art in that incredibly short run he did is just amazing. I might like him even better than Gene Colon.

Of course Colon has an advantage of his work looking much better in black and white than it did with the crummy seventies coloring.

Oh, and the Fantastic Four crossover is pretty awesome, too.

Skwirl posted:

If you dig Silver Age stuff the first 3 Essential Strange are pretty good, but I wouldn't blame you for just skipping over the part where he has a secret identity, also Essential Defenders 1 at least is pretty good too and features Strange, I haven't read the later volumes.

That whole block from the death of the Ancient One through Englehart is really rough. Even the Shuma Gorath storyline suffers from having four different writers across six issues. But Englehart knocks the mysticism stuff out of the park.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Ror posted:

Has Strange ever actually shown insight or expert knowledge about the human brain that might be expected from a neurosurgeon?

I always figured that Stan Lee needed his surgeon to sound really brilliantly impressive so he made him a neurosurgeon, but it's a wholly separate subset of expertise from like a hand surgeon or cardiac surgeon. He should be Wolverine's go-to guy for amnesia questions.

Maybe brain stuff just clashes with magic stuff too much. Never! :doom:

Strange kinda touches on this slightly in Deadpool's run when dealing with Deadpool's massively hosed up brain, but he would honestly have fit better as a former psychiatrist there.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

Opopanax posted:

It's not like minorities haven't oppressed other minorities before. When you have stuff like TERFs and the strong Black support for Prop8 I think it's a bit more relevant.

You know, they've done analysis on the "strong black support" for Prop 8 and found some interesting stuff: http://www.madpickles.org/California_Proposition_8.html

Mister Olympus
Oct 31, 2011

Buzzard, Who Steals From Dead Bodies

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

You know, they've done analysis on the "strong black support" for Prop 8 and found some interesting stuff: http://www.madpickles.org/California_Proposition_8.html

It's not particularly surprising-- http://webs.wofford.edu/hitchmoughsa/toward.html is a good read on the phenomenon.

quote:

Heterosexual privilege is usually the only privilege that Black women have. None of us have racial or sexual privilege, almost none of us have class privilege; maintaining "straightness" is our last resort. Being out, particularly out in print, is the final renunciation of any claim to the crumbs of "tolerance" that nonthreatening "ladylike" Black women are sometimes fed.

Basically: america, poo poo, etc

e: wait gently caress this ISN'T D&D?

Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Sep 13, 2014

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
It's amazing how people, even people who consider themselves "progressives" readily swallowed that being used as a bludgeon.

BadAstronaut
Sep 15, 2004

Hey guys. Just how far back do I need to go to get the most out of House of M?

I bought it on Comixology, now by far my main source of comics, on sale along with a couple others not really knowing what I was getting myself in for.

I've Googled for some suggested reading orders or to find out what is skippable and I think there's a lot of assumed knowledge. I've never been properly into X Men and I put off reading Avengers Disassembled et al as a result of not owning enough of the comics yet, but wouldn't mind getting into this even if it means buying a few more collected editions or trade paperbacks (digitally anyway) if there's a good beginning and end and I can enjoy an epic story or two along the way.

Any suggestions?

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



House of M was intended as a New Avengers/Astonishing X-Men crossover that said, there's really not anything you *have* to read beforehand, though both of those series are pretty good leading into the mini.

hadji murad
Apr 18, 2006
I'm going through that giant Cosmic Marvel thing thanks to Marvel Unlimited and I can't believe how good it is. The Star-Lord thing pre Conquest, Secret Invasions: Inhumans have been much better than I expected and the main event books were just awesome with all the backstory from reading, well, everything.

I'm just taking a break from that and jumped back to the Comixology app since I read on a Mini and want to give my eyes a rest. I am catching up on my GotG and have a question about the planet Spartax:

what's up with Spartax?

Of all the cosmic civs they are one I'm not familiar with and I've been reading since the 80s with one giant late 90s hole.

Where can I find out how the society is organized and what it's like. I've learned loads about the Kree, Shiar and Skrulls of course.

Also, what about the Badoon?

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irlZaphod
Mar 26, 2004

Kiss the Joycon to Kiss Zelda

BadAstronaut posted:

Hey guys. Just how far back do I need to go to get the most out of House of M?
House of M is pretty much self-contained, the only thing which leads into it really is Avengers: Disassembled, and even at that it's basically just Scarlet Witch goes crazy and kills some people.

I wouldn't really read much outside of the main House of M mini really, either. A lot of the rest of it was pretty crap to be honest. I think Mark Waid did a HoM: Spider-Man series which wasn't bad. The one-shot Brubaker did in his Cap run was pretty great too (that was actually what got me reading his Cap, funnily enough).

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