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Hey rope kid if you're there, Me and Matt are now working on a proposal for weapon damage ranges to balance them against DT, would you mind providing us with the base reload/recovery times for Implements, Hunting Bows, War Bows, Crossbows, Arbalests, Blunderbusses, Pistols and Arquebuses as well as like the roof of DT in the game (ie the highest value on a monster). I think the animation length for a Hunting Bow is 20 frames, but I'm not sure about the others, all 30 frames ? I think I know a way to make it so that the efficacy of 1H fast, 1H normal and 2H (as well as the ranged weapons) have around about an equal amount of usefulness across a given range of DT - should be able to do it on Matt's spreadsheet, and then we'll chuck up a thread and you can see what you think. We should be able to use a similar method to how IAS falls off against pure damage vs DT in our paper. Might save you some time later on, anyway (as you'll have a better base to work from). I'm sure you've got enough things to do as it is. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 18:03
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Hulk Smash! posted:
fukkin casual
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Sep 13, 2014 18:21
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Sensuki posted:Hey rope kid if you're there, Me and Matt are now working on a proposal for weapon damage ranges to balance them against DT, would you mind providing us with the base reload/recovery times for Implements, Hunting Bows, War Bows, Crossbows, Arbalests, Blunderbusses, Pistols and Arquebuses as well as like the roof of DT in the game (ie the highest value on a monster). We see through your unsubtle attempts to replace ropekid in some evil skrull plot. You'll never take his designer spot. NEVER!
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Sep 13, 2014 19:29
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I had my share of getting owned by the beetles when I played when tired... Did it again today and it went rather better. One thing I will say though I'm a bit leery of talk of making the enemies more actively seek out your back lines. There currently seem to be pretty few tools to prevent enemies from moving past your sturdier party members if they want to and it leads to structure of the fight descending into a set of individual melees. This is partially what happened when I was playing whilst tired; I was attracting the attention of too many beetles and one would hit the fighter and the others would flow around and chew through everyone else. Btw, does the game keep track of whether you pilfer things from dwellings, barrels in the village etc?
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Sep 13, 2014 20:42
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Well for one thing currently moving pauses recovery, so moving past melee opponents is pretty easy because of that, they might get one attack in but that's it, and then when they chase it's like LULZ CANT ATTACK SOZ That's why that poo poo needs to be removed it's just awful for melee. evilmiera posted:We see through your unsubtle attempts to replace ropekid in some evil skrull plot. You'll never take his designer spot. NEVER! Well the other day he replied to a topic on the Obs boards about Bows (and implements) being terrible. There's a reason why they're terrible and it's not limited to just bows and implements. All of the weapons have been balanced against DT 0 rather than taking DT into account. If the armor system was percentile, they would be roughly balanced. However it's an integer system, and the deficit needs to be taken into account. All 1H Fast, 1H normal weapons as well as bows and implements are _horrible_ vs armor - except for Stilettos and Maces because they have an OP -5 DT property. Estocs are _THE_BEST_ (deliberately i swear) unless the enemy has a high piercing resistance. We can use Matt's spreadsheet to find damage ranges for each weapon relative to their attack speed to make them effective versus a range of DT rather, so that against 10 DT, maybe 1H Normal weapons are slightly better than the others, against 15 DT, maybe 2H weapons are better (just as an example). I'm not sure that's what they want, but it's an avenue to explore anyway. edit: based on rope kid's "tunin' tips and tricks" from 2009, it sounds about on the money tho Sensuki fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 20:46
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Is it too late to suggest a mini-questline? Because getting help with a standard RPG player's kleptomaniacal tendencies in-game would be hilarious.
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Sep 13, 2014 22:34
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Where should I be able to get the rope and tackle again to get the egg down? For some reason I can't find any this run. Barring that anyone have the item code for them?
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Sep 14, 2014 00:00
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Munin posted:Where should I be able to get the rope and tackle again to get the egg down? For some reason I can't find any this run. I think I bought mine from the innkeeper or the blacksmith. In my playthrough I died and had to reload after successfully using two ropes to get the egg down, and after the reload I didn't have both ropes with me anymore.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:03
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Munin posted:I'm a bit leery of talk of making the enemies more actively seek out your back lines.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:09
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It won't be too bad if the AI stops it's backline attack if it gets stopped by a engagement root - then you'd get rewarded for proper positioning and placing your front-line right. If it just keeps going after the engagement attack hits them it'll be a real problem.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:11
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DatonKallandor posted:It won't be too bad if the AI stops it's backline attack if it gets stopped by a engagement root - then you'd get rewarded for proper positioning and placing your front-line right. If it just keeps going after the engagement attack hits them it'll be a real problem. Well, YOU'D keep going. You'd sacrifice a hit on your fighter in order to get to a mage in the back line. Why can't the AI?
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Sep 14, 2014 00:18
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At the moment the stamina numbers seem pretty robust (I imagine to minimize the swing-y calculations of D&D damage). In the absence of "stickier" combat that rope kid has talked about, the linebackers of the party seem less effective. Attacks of opportunity don't seem particularly discouraging, but combat is still kind of borked anyway
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Sep 14, 2014 00:24
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Drifter posted:Well, YOU'D keep going. You'd sacrifice a hit on your fighter in order to get to a mage in the back line. Why can't the AI?
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Sep 14, 2014 00:26
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To be honest, I was skeptic when Sensuki came up with the initial format. However, after reading the paper, I'm inclined to chime in the opinion "Why not just give it a try?" since it's not just an opinion but supported by the numbers-also, my limited experience from the Beta makes me feel the direction right. I, myself, find it hard to counter-argue them when the numbers and my own experience feel synchronized. It's unusual of ropekid to reject them just because the idea are not from the devs. I may be overestimating the wisdom of the crowds but, then again, to be fair, I don't think Sawyer offered a competent alternative against them, at least, atm. Possible counterarguments/concerns could be something related with additional conditions such as the optimization of AI and/or different types of enemies/attacks which are yet to be implemented in the Backer Beta but he didn't even give such reasoning. Also, I think what they are doing with the weapon damage range is to the right direction (before we can talk about ranged/melee focused class distinctions) since I feel the power of the ranged weapons uneven (the bows and the guns/arbalest-yet to try the fabulous Estoc), even from my (again) limited experience with the Backer Beta. If they try to force the devs to use their own version, it could be a problem but, basically, they are just offering some statistics and different point of view. The devs can point out possible issues from their own viewpoints.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:27
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Sea Otter posted:It's unusual of ropekid to reject them just because the idea are not from the devs.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:33
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rope kid posted:So unusual that, unless you are in an alternate timeline, I didn't. Ah, I see you played Bioshock: Infinite as well.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:33
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Drifter posted:Well, YOU'D keep going. You'd sacrifice a hit on your fighter in order to get to a mage in the back line. Why can't the AI? Because most good games have an AI that sticks to the rules that the player is allowed to break. A powergaming AI really sucks, because it's a one-note AI. It'll do the one-best-move over and over.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:40
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Yeah, he complimented their research and even pointed out that they came to the same conclusions independently about things like attack speed. Where'd you get out-of-hand-rejection from?
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Sep 14, 2014 00:40
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rope kid posted:So unusual that, unless you are in an alternate timeline, I didn't. 
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Sep 14, 2014 00:45
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There were only a few minor points we disagreed on. I don't think Interrupt should be connected to an Attribute at all, really. Matt516 didn't strongly object to that. Deflection on Resolve feels a li'l odd, but with INT as AoE/Duration and RES as Concentration/Deflection, it made me think there would be more incentive for more classes to take each if it were INT = AoE/Deflection and RES = Concentration/Duration. After Ferrinus' post last night, I thought that the range of various buff/healing spells could be reduced with PER increasing range for anything non-melee. Range is more about utility than anything else, but it could be a good incentive and it seems to "make sense".
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Sep 14, 2014 01:04
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FRINGE posted:It might just make it more advantageous to have a more robust front line? Less mages and more fighters per party? (Im not using the beta, but if it worked that way I wouldnt mind.) Not really since it feels like there is nothing the front line can really do to actively hold them there at the moment if they are determined to go for your back line. Currently you basically have to engage with your fighter (or whatever sturdy character you picked) as otherwise they'll go for whoever attacked them first and unless you are in a tight corridor there is very little you can do about it. The fighter then spend most of the fight wailing on something's back with little to show for the survivability investment. Also engagement currently is badly communicated (especially on multiple targets) and its effect on combat seems limited when an enemy does just decide to run past. Enemies currently don't seem too prone to pulling away and switching targets once they've started attacking someone. [edit] Also, I checked both blacksmith and inn before and they were both bare of rope and tackle. Can it be spawned or are there any anywhere else?
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Sep 14, 2014 01:31
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There's a different (longer?) version of rope and tackle in the Skein dungeon, but the last I got it was during the initial beta and so all the item-contextual options bugged out on saving. I'm assume it's there for a specific purpose in that particular dungeon, though I am curious as to whether you can go spelunking in the other dungeon with it.
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Sep 14, 2014 02:15
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rope kid posted:There were only a few minor points we disagreed on. I don't think Interrupt should be connected to an Attribute at all, really. Matt516 didn't strongly object to that. Deflection on Resolve feels a li'l odd, but with INT as AoE/Duration and RES as Concentration/Deflection, it made me think there would be more incentive for more classes to take each if it were INT = AoE/Deflection and RES = Concentration/Duration. What's odd about Deflection on Resolve btw? I replied to your posts in the OE thread but dunno if you saw them, based on our findings anyway I'm not sure that Accuracy on it's own at +1 per point and Def/AoE and Dur/Con would be balanced enough, they're all weaker than the three 'perfect' attributes atm - Might, Constitution and Intellect. Crossposted points: quote:Durations and AoEs are best together. Intellect is most beneficial for caster classes. Priests and Druids (perhaps Ciphers too?) moreso than anyone as they have lots of duration based spells, and lots of AoE (duration based) spells. I also think that doing this makes it so that Action Speed won't be really super necessary on any class build, whereas in our system for buff and debuff casters it would be the second best statistically as both of the 'universal stats' would be best for them. I think AoE/Deflection and Durations/Concentration become way more dumpable on some classes as well. I like Interrupt in the attribute system as it pairs with Accuracy nicely, although it might need slight altering to make it a bit more intuitive or something. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Sep 14, 2014 |
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Sep 14, 2014 02:34
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rope kid posted:There were only a few minor points we disagreed on. I don't think Interrupt should be connected to an Attribute at all, really.
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Sep 14, 2014 02:50
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Weapon weight or damage maybe? Make it like a stun meter from fighting games? Successive hits (not Grazes) over a certain period of time increases the chances of getting an Interrupt?
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Sep 14, 2014 02:59
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Some weapons do better interrupts already, but 'heavier' weapons don't by default because they're balanced against the speed of lighter weapons. Slower weapons do more interrupt, but IIRC only to offset they're slow rof. I don't see why interrupt shouldn't have its own attribute, and it seems destined to be marginalized if it doesn't have much design space.
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Sep 14, 2014 03:09
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With regards to stickiness on front-liners, would it be an improvement if the engagement attack actually stopped the opponent in their tracks and forced them back into engagement the fighter/whoever? Perhaps when attempting to disengage, a normal attack vs def roll is played, if successful disengagement fails, they get the disengagement attack and their movement away is actually canceled, and they have to try again. Against a high accuracy frontliner it would make it quite difficult to disengage. This would have implications for the player as well as enemies, and it would make the rogue's escape ability a lot more valuable, as well as the talent that increases engagement limit.
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Sep 14, 2014 03:09
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rope kid posted:After Ferrinus' post last night, I thought that the range of various buff/healing spells could be reduced with PER increasing range for anything non-melee. Range is more about utility than anything else, but it could be a good incentive and it seems to "make sense". PER increasing targeting range, generally, sounds like a good idea.
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Sep 14, 2014 03:27
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Sensuki posted:Durations and AoEs are best together. Intellect is most beneficial for caster classes. Priests and Druids (perhaps Ciphers too?) moreso than anyone as they have lots of duration based spells, and lots of AoE (duration based) spells. If you separate Duration from AoE, this makes it much, much harder for these casters to get the most out of their build, as they will be wanting to ideally pump the attributes that give these things, but because the bonuses are now split over these two attributes they have to sacrifice a lot more of their attribute points just to get the bonuses.
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Sep 14, 2014 03:30
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Diomedes posted:With regards to stickiness on front-liners, would it be an improvement if the engagement attack actually stopped the opponent in their tracks and forced them back into engagement the fighter/whoever?
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Sep 14, 2014 03:32
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A Catastrophe posted:Some weapons do better interrupts already, but 'heavier' weapons don't by default because they're balanced against the speed of lighter weapons. Slower weapons do more interrupt, but IIRC only to offset they're slow rof.
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Sep 14, 2014 03:39
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rope kid posted:The fewer inputs a value has, the more weight each input actually has. There are three elements that currently go into Interrupt: Base Interrupt (large effect, on the weapon or attack), Perception bonus (smaller effect), and the attack results (large effect). Putting an Interrupt bonus on the Attribute that also affects the attack result wouldn't change how anyone would build their character and it seems redundant/unnecessarily obfuscating for a relatively minor difference. I think Interrupt-oriented Talents could grant larger bonuses and produce a more obvious difference. Either way, I would be quite happy if the interrupt strat basically involved swapping to your bonkin' weapon and looking for crits. I'm sympathetic to efforts to encourage more weapon shifts. As for build, while I like the idea of Interrupt Talents, it occurs to me that talents are already being used to answer a lot of questions. With a limited number on each character, talents risk some of the flaws manifest in the 3e dnd feat system. A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Sep 14, 2014 |
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Sep 14, 2014 04:04
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Maybe if a Fighter makes a Disengagement Attack and it Hits or Crits, the opponent is also knocked Prone?
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Sep 14, 2014 04:04
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coffeetable posted:you mean... you have other things to do with your life than reload the same fight fifteen times? Filthy old casual reporting in
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Sep 14, 2014 04:11
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rope kid posted:A successful Disengagement Attack should cause re-engagement. Oh, that's great! From the way people were talking about it, it seemed like they found their fighters weren't very sticky and opponents were getting away too easily. For those who have the beta, do you feel the disengagement attacks causing re-engagement? Or are disengagement attacks failing too often? Maybe they should get an accuracy bonus? OR do they already?
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Sep 14, 2014 04:28
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SoggyBobcat posted:Maybe if a Fighter makes a Disengagement Attack and it Hits or Crits, the opponent is also knocked Prone? The players would throw poo poo fits if their characters got knocked out whenever they tried to skate through an enemy front line. And really, your characters getting disabled enough to prevent you from acting isn't really fun, unless the 'wait' is only a twenty frame get-up animation, maybe.
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Sep 14, 2014 04:29
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^^^If they can take a Web spell or a trap, they can take a knockdown or a Disengagement Attack.Diomedes posted:Oh, that's great! From the way people were talking about it, it seemed like they found their fighters weren't very sticky and opponents were getting away too easily. For those who have the beta, do you feel the disengagement attacks causing re-engagement? Or are disengagement attacks failing too often? Maybe they should get an accuracy bonus? OR do they already?
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Sep 14, 2014 04:35
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Fighters currently have Crippling Guard at higher level, which automatically inflicts the Hobbled condition when they land a Disengagement Attack.
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Sep 14, 2014 04:53
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Basic Chunnel posted:There's a different (longer?) version of rope and tackle in the Skein dungeon, but the last I got it was during the initial beta and so all the item-contextual options bugged out on saving. I'm assume it's there for a specific purpose in that particular dungeon, though I am curious as to whether you can go spelunking in the other dungeon with it. Yeah I picked those up. It's funny how one has a rope icon and the other a grappling hook but they are both called "Rope and Grappling Hook". Other quick question. What triggers fatigue? I used camping supplies and two of my guys are back to minor fatigue after 1 fight. Finally, thanks for the posts rope kid. My posts do tend to the negative but I have been enjoying the beta so far. 
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Sep 14, 2014 05:03
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Resting should completely get rid of Fatigue, but otherwise it's just the lapse of time that generates it (combat generates it much faster).
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Sep 14, 2014 05:05
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