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josh04 posted:Yes, if only people could be reasonable and not use accurate words to describe things so as to protect the feelings of people who are emotionally invested in what 'SJWs' think. Except they're not accurate. People are using politically loaded terms to describe personal opinions. Its almost like they don't have the ability to communicate their opinions and feelings without trying to paint things they don't like as "evil" or "hateful." Moffat is a guy who thinks he's more clever than he actually is, not some woman-hating monster using a children's science fiction show to express his contempt for woman-kind. Seriously, if you substituted every sincere instance of "misogynist" or "misogyny" in this thread with "didn't like," it would be a much more civil and productive place to discuss Doctor Who.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:38
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Metal Loaf posted:I'm extremely reluctant to accuse him of being some kind of full-on MRA, malevolent, Elliot Rodger-type misogynist. I applaud your restraint in not equating a television writer you don't like to a mass murderer.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:39
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Spikeguy posted:Has it ever been established why The Doctor took such a liking to Earth and hangs out there more often than not? I know he protects anyone he can, but this place seems to have taken a special place in his heart. Because Ian and Barbara owned bones  It was actually established early in the series that the French Revolution was the Doctor's favorite period of Earth history, and that in England he'd visited the court of King Henry at least before settling in 1963, so he was aware of the planet. Perhaps initially he thought it was a good backwater to settle down in where the Time Lords were unlikely to find him (or they knew but held back because he had the Hand of Omega, a weapon he stole before leaving) and his granddaughter could live a relatively normal life. But after meeting Ian and Barbara and having a series of adventures with them, he quickly grew fond of Earth and humans.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:40
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Metal Loaf posted:I think the problem is that the content of (for example) previous interviews Moffat has given and some stories he's written (for more than just Doctor Who - I think there might be a bit of a question mark over the portrayal of Adler in Sherlock) come across as indicating that he at least has issues with women. Well there's no need to speculate about his character. It's an unanswerable question. We can talk about his writing tho, I think it'd be pretty hard to deny the sheer amount of sexist drivel that comes out across his work
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Sep 15, 2014 22:40
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Ludicro posted:Yeah I've seen people commenting that Storm Warning needs to be listened to first before, sounds like I might have to take the plunge. Well if an idea of some of my favourite serials from the show I'll list some off the top of my head. This list says to me "I like really good stuff. Recommend me good stuff" as it contains most of the really highly regarded stories from the first twenty years 
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Sep 15, 2014 22:42
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Irish Joe posted:Except they're not accurate. People are using politically loaded terms to describe personal opinions. Its almost like they don't have the ability to communicate their opinions and feelings without trying to paint things they don't like as "evil" or "hateful." Moffat is a guy who thinks he's more clever than he actually is, not some woman-hating monster using a children's science fiction show to express his contempt for woman-kind. Seriously, if you substituted every sincere instance of "misogynist" or "misogyny" in this thread with "didn't like," it would be a much more civil and productive place to discuss Doctor Who. I don't think Moffat is a misogynist, but there's no problem with describing the issues raised as issues of misogyny. That's what's being discussed. The word isn't some kind of evil-totem which will ruin everything if used.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:43
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Irish Joe posted:Except they're not accurate. People are using politically loaded terms to describe personal opinions. Its almost like they don't have the ability to communicate their opinions and feelings without trying to paint things they don't like as "evil" or "hateful." Moffat is a guy who thinks he's more clever than he actually is, not some woman-hating monster using a children's science fiction show to express his contempt for woman-kind. Seriously, if you substituted every sincere instance of "misogynist" or "misogyny" in this thread with "didn't like," it would be a much more civil and productive place to discuss Doctor Who. You're a big baby with no self awareness
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Sep 15, 2014 22:46
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Irish Joe posted:I think people are mainly railing against the assertions that: You hear that Feminism? This guy has stated that people making fun of womens' appearances is not an issue, wrap it up Feminailures.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:48
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I don't like horror stories, or movies or whatever. The vast majority of time they're not scary for me and a lot of the "eerie buildup" becomes boring "waiting for something to happen." The scene with the blanketed figure on the bed was like this. For me it went on far too long and didn't feel very suspenseful. For a kid or monster it didn't react at all to anything going on one way or the other. But, other than that I liked the way the episode progressed. It wasn't a horror tale necessarily despite having a lot of tappings of one. Both scenes with Clara under a bed were great with her reactions to what suddenly and unexpectedly occured. The scene at the end in the barn made me groan as soon as the words "Time Lord" were spoken, but reflecting back on it it wasn't actually that bad, but it does make me wonder if she'll give
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Sep 15, 2014 22:48
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Irish Joe posted:I applaud your restraint in not equating a television writer you don't like to a mass murderer. I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression. That was a rather impulsively-chosen extreme example and the strongest that came to mind. What I was trying to convey was more along the lines of this part of your previous post: Irish Joe posted:Moffat is a guy who thinks he's more clever than he actually is, not some woman-hating monster using a children's science fiction show to express his contempt for woman-kind.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:48
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BioMe posted:No, immediately telling possibly indifferent people that they are "part of the problem" or "the enemy" has the problem where they might start believing you. Since most social issues are purely a psychological warfare, turning a person against you is exactly like scoring in your own goal. Also in this case there's the matter of equating not buying a tone deaf interpretation of Doctor Who dialogue with being part of some kind of societal problem. I think there's some kind of misframing of the issue going on. Men who aren't self-critical about sexist behaviour and how it affects/benefits them are a problem. Merely thinking "Well I'm not sexist, I'm not the problem" isn't enough because a lot of the effects of sexism are subtle and so rooted in society that they happen without people actively thinking about them or noticing them. Boo hoo if someone who doesn't think themselves as a problem gets called one, maybe one time out of a hundred they will actually have some self awareness and not just react with "They said a bad thing about me, that makes me unhappy so it must be wrong"
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Sep 15, 2014 22:51
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dr_rat posted:Yeah, agree. Thought they made some really interesting points. Especially pointing out the inherent creepiness of Clara in the date, continuing it directly after meeting, and very possibly completely changing the course of the younger version of her dates life, and then again after seeing her dates distant relative and finding out information about their possible shared future. I mentioned "goofy" because they used in in series 1 in the Time Reaper episode when Rose met young Mickey, they didn't really do anything with it aside from a single joke ("I think I imprinted myself on Mickey like a mother chicken" or something like that). Can't really fault them because "Father's Day" would end up a weaker episode with these kinds of sub-plots, but it would be interesting if they explored it later, as I hope Moffat will do here. AndyElusive posted:I am totally loving these posters created for each episode this season. BioMe posted:Going for an older Doctor was a pretty good move. I think my problem with Matt Smith was that he could play the goofy Doctor, but the writing constantly wanted to have the intimidating Time Lord. I mean the "I am the Doctor, last of the Time Lords! *An army of death machines steps backwards*" was always really cheesy writing, but I recall Tennant and Eccelston doing a much better job selling it than Smith ever could. He just always looked like the wacky cartoon character regardless of how dramatic the scene was supposed to be. It was far more jarring with Tennant who looked so much like an angry hamster that I couldn't take him seriously. For me he worked better when he wasn't straight-up threatening per se, just kept getting delusional and overambitious in such a matter-of-factly way that everyone around him started worrying about what he might do, ally or enemy alike. He didn't lend himself to "Rose. I'm coming to get you" or "Basically - run" type moments. Agreeing on all your points about Capaldi though, like most posters here I can't wait to see more of him. Thank God no mid-season breaks this time. Pizdec fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:51
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The current opening is poo poo and dull, replace away
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Sep 15, 2014 22:53
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I watched Listen again! It's odd. There's some parts of it where it really goes right for me on "yes, this is rather close to what I'd like the show to do all the time", and then there's some parts where it's all "hahaha, now here comes a bit which is absolutely the last thing you want to see the show do!" Right now I'm content to remember the bits that were cool and forget the ones that weren't. It's a weird one. One way or another I don't think it's going to go down as a forgettable episode, though. If your speakers aren't top-of-the-line I'd strongly recommend putting a pair of headphones in and, hahaha, listening to the sound design, it's absolutely amazing. And Capaldi, jeez. It takes a brave man to do what he's done, close down the tawdry quirks shop, abandon the intergalactic waggishness, and go for "intense" and "unsettling" instead. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 22:56
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The current opening is poo poo and dull, replace away Visuals are crap, music is crap, 100% agree. I'd rather that bonkers theme they used for the Eight/Mary Shelley audios - at least that one is MEMORABLE.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:58
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DoctorWhat posted:Visuals are crap, music is crap, 100% agree. I'd rather that bonkers theme they used for the Eight/Mary Shelley audios - at least that one is MEMORABLE. I miss seeing a time tunnel. 
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Sep 15, 2014 23:02
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Irish Joe posted:
People were doing the former, although the reason people specifically use the word misogyny is because of prior stuff from Moffat, both in interview form and in his writing. It contextualizes some of his more minor offences into a larger picture. I'm sorry it is a hot button word for you and we were supposed to say "Didn't like" instead, but you're the one using the internet's most tired and useless term, SJW, so: MrL_JaKiri posted:You're a big baby with no self awareness
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Sep 15, 2014 23:04
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Fil5000 posted:Mark Heap might make a good Vila, but Avon? I'm not seeing that at all. Oh, he's not so bad. Vila -- Martin Freeman. Sevelan -- Mackenzie Crook. The casting of Blake never fails to make me giggle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWuTeR7xCU4
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Sep 15, 2014 23:07
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josh04 posted:I don't think Moffat is a misogynist, but there's no problem with describing the issues raised as issues of misogyny. That's what's being discussed. The word isn't some kind of evil-totem which will ruin everything if used. I generally feel that the m-word is overused, that overuse of 'misogyny' dilutes it's meaning in circumstances where 'sexist' is more accurate... but the constant belittling of a woman (particularly of her appearance) is such a key component of abusive relationships (the intent being to destroy her self-confidence and keep her from believing that she can do better) that it's really difficult to read these constant put-downs as being anything different. It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:08
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Noxville posted:I generally feel that the m-word is overused, that overuse of 'misogyny' dilutes it's meaning in circumstances where 'sexist' is more accurate... but the constant belittling of a woman (particularly of her appearance) is such a key component of abusive relationships (the intent being to destroy her self-confidence and keep her from believing that she can do better) that it's really difficult to read these constant put-downs as being anything different. It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed. I think Moffat's got a thing for trying to redeem sexist comedy tropes in non-sexist environments. So the Doctor is putting down Clara's appearance, but as part of trying to break down their romantic relationship rather than creepily shore up it. It's the Doctor trying to be someone who a. doesn't like Clara romantically and b. won't be preferred by Clara over other relationships like Mr. Pink. How well this works and whether or not it's worth doing is up for debate, but in terms of script it's been paired up with a bunch of episodes where Clara is on equal pegging with the Doctor in terms of getting poo poo done and making important choices, which I reckon's the more important bit.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:24
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Has anyone read Philip Sandifer's article "Steven Moffat is a Feminist and You Are Wrong if You Disagree"? http://www.philipsandifer.com/2014/09/steven-moffat-is-feminist-and-you-are.html I thought it raised some interesting points.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:27
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Noxville posted:I generally feel that the m-word is overused, that overuse of 'misogyny' dilutes it's meaning in circumstances where 'sexist' is more accurate... but the constant belittling of a woman (particularly of her appearance) is such a key component of abusive relationships (the intent being to destroy her self-confidence and keep her from believing that she can do better) that it's really difficult to read these constant put-downs as being anything different. It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed. Theres a word for sexist towards women tho, so people should use that.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:28
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PoshAlligator posted:I thought it raised some interesting points. Not the least of which is "Philip Sandifer cannot get to the point before I lose interest." Do bloggers get paid by the word now? e: Redefining terms is p classic gimmick in persuasive writing, so good job there. But discussing the potential sexual orientation of your potential kids? It's so far off-topic that you have to wonder if this is some test that measures (in terms of time spent on-site) how much you care that someone thinks Moffat is a Feminist. Instead of just a bad writer that thinks women are dumb dummies. moths fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 23:31
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moths posted:Not the least of which is "Philip Sandifer cannot get to the point before I lose interest." Do bloggers get paid by the word now? I noticed it completely misses the points of criticisms of River Song, Deep Breath and weirdly blames "feminists" for male writers not understanding what Strong Female Characters means.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:44
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PoshAlligator posted:Has anyone read Philip Sandifer's article "Steven Moffat is a Feminist and You Are Wrong if You Disagree"? It's another example of Sandifer giving in to his teleological predispositions and primal need to defend Moffat at all costs, and talking over actual women (and other minority perspectives) in the process.. Phil and I had a row about this exact sort of thing back in March. His argument - that there are evidently millions of women, including Sandifer's wife and his sister, who enjoy Moffat's direction for Who - is obviously not FALSE. But from that sound premise, he goes on to insinuate that anyone who critiques Moffatt from a feminist angle is in some way denying agency to those women who DO enjoy Moffat!Who. He even goes so far as to imply that such critiques are somehow ANTIFEMINIST. And that's a loving BONKERS claim to make, ESPECIALLY when it's a straight, cisgender white dude saying it. Then, whenever he's called out on that behavior, he uses his wife and sister as shields and deflections. In the aftermath of my argument with him back in March, Phil messaged me to inform me that my "tone" in the argument had caused his wife some amount of emotional distress. Now, I NEVER SAID A WORD TO OR ABOUT the woman in question; but in an effort to not be an rear end in a top hat and avoid causing further distress (and assuming good faith) I stopped interacting with Sandifer. Sandifer is a very clever and highly educated writer and analyst, but he's also a tremendous twit at times. Also, he quite recently picked a fight with me over [a post about Six I made] and accused me of implicitly supporting domestic violence by being a fan of Colin Baker and wearing my Coat, EVEN THOUGH HE'S HAD ME ON "IGNORE" SINCE MARCH, so... yeeeaaaahhhh. DoctorWhat fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 23:45
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Have we reached the point in the cyclical conversation about Moffat's sexism where people pretend "Oh that's not me, that's just what my self-insert from my autobiographical show would think!" is a valid defense? Or will that come up in a couple days? Also Sandifer is too tedious to bother with.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:47
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HEllo I came here to see if this season is worth watching but it's just 20 pages of people talking about audiobooks and social justice lol
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Sep 15, 2014 23:55
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The current opening is poo poo and dull, replace away DoctorWhat posted:Visuals are crap, music is crap, 100% agree. I'd rather that bonkers theme they used for the Eight/Mary Shelley audios - at least that one is MEMORABLE. I kind of hoped they'd use a modified version of the end credits for Day of the Doctor.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:59
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BurnBlackJay posted:HEllo I came here to see if this season is worth watching but it's just 20 pages of people talking about audiobooks and social justice lol
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Sep 16, 2014 00:01
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BurnBlackJay posted:HEllo I came here to see if this season is worth watching but it's just 20 pages of people talking about audiobooks and social justice lol Skip Deep Breath up until Clara and the Doctor meet for dinner, then go ahead and watch the rest of the episodes and it's been fairly good so far. Or go listen to the audioplays because they have some fantastic stories.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:03
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DoctorWhat posted:Visuals are crap, music is crap, 100% agree. I'd rather that bonkers theme they used for the Eight/Mary Shelley audios - at least that one is MEMORABLE. Yeah, I've come around on the titles, I don't care for them, but I love the music. I think that aspect is spot on.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:07
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Noxville posted:I generally feel that the m-word is overused, that overuse of 'misogyny' dilutes it's meaning in circumstances where 'sexist' is more accurate... but the constant belittling of a woman (particularly of her appearance) is such a key component of abusive relationships (the intent being to destroy her self-confidence and keep her from believing that she can do better) that it's really difficult to read these constant put-downs as being anything different. It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed. The thing for me is that the insults are so far off the mark that they kind of lose any abusive impact, there's no way they can be taken seriously. That's in the context of the show, of course, if someone who wasn't a mercurial alien did the same thing in real life it would be a different story.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:17
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Noxville posted:It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed. Pity about the opening hate, I like the visuals, refreshingly abstract. I have to agree about the music though, the title theme changes since Series 1 ranged from mediocre to awful and this one is no exception. I don't see it changing anytime soon unless Murray Gold goes all Jimmy Savile and BBC is forced to fire him. Pizdec fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 00:23
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One Swell Foop posted:The thing for me is that the insults are so far off the mark that they kind of lose any abusive impact, there's no way they can be taken seriously. That's in the context of the show, of course, if someone who wasn't a mercurial alien did the same thing in real life it would be a different story.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:25
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Am I wrong in observing that he gets nastier when he's jealous?
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Sep 16, 2014 00:28
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Oh no I really enjoyed what I've read of TARDIS Eruditorum why did the guy have to turn out to be a dickhead This is why I hate Internet 2.0, I don't want authors to be allowed to argue with me over what they actually mean, that completely subverts what my English Lit degree was all about, which is using other people's ideas to feel clever.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:29
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Noxville posted:it's really difficult to read these constant put-downs as being anything different. It's been present in every episode this season and hasn't really been in the past, and it's kind of hosed. It really isn't that hard to think of alternative explanations unless you're a complete idiot. Which, coincidentally, you are. Don't worry, though. Because I'm a nice guy, I'm going help you get smarter. Ask yourself: 1. What is different between this season and last season that might result in a change in the Doctor's personality? 2. What qualities would you use to describe this Doctor as opposed to the last one? (ie brash, petulant, rude) 3. What does the presence of those qualities say about this Doctor as compared to the last one? If you ask yourself those questions and still come up with "dur, abusive relationship," congratulations, you're still an idiot. However, you're an idiot who's taken the first step to thinking critically, so give yourself a pat on the back. Little_wh0re posted:Theres a word for sexist towards women tho, so people should use that. Sexist towards women, or being rude towards a woman?
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Sep 16, 2014 00:32
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LividLiquid posted:That's the thing, though. The damage something does is not connected to the intentions it had. True in the broad sense, but I don't see that damage is being done in the specific case of this season, although there's still nine episodes for this to be addressed. One Swell Foop fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 00:34
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Irish Joe posted:you're a complete idiot. you are. I don't know, I think maybe the Doctor's aggression is a little unwarranted, but I can see why you might not be troubled by it.
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Sep 16, 2014 00:38
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Is there still a general doctor who and/or classic doctor who thread? I am about to take the plunge and go full chronological through classic who and would like to have a place to talk about it.
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