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Widestancer posted:He's right though nah
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Sep 16, 2014 19:38
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jivjov posted:Other people being destitute is not a requirement of some people being rich. Yes it works out that way sometimes, but just taking "is rich" is a vacuum is not a moral indictment of someone. The possibility of Mojang being downsized is exponentially higher now that they have been acquired by a massive, publicly traded corporation. The argument people are making isn't that he stripped them of their bank accounts as of yesterday, it is that he has now put their jobs and livelihoods at risk when there previously was none (Mojang has been very profitable and looked to be profitable for the foreseeable future) for his own personal gain, which could have been completely counteracted by splitting off 1% of his earnings and dividing it amongst them.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:38
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Durrr people should never have to keep their resumes updated and keep current on skillets in a technical field because urrrrrrrr
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Sep 16, 2014 19:40
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OwlFancier posted:It is arguably impossible to remain rich for very long without being unethical, and also remarkably common to become rich by doing things of questionable legality. Very true that running a business you sometimes have to do things that are legally questionable, but as a good friend of mine says. "It is all legal until it goes to court". That in no way justifies those type of actions, but there is a grain of truth there. As for ethical or not is a very subjective thing, thus I am sure you get 10 people in a room you will have 20 opinions on what is moral to do in a situation. In my view, it is his money and his choice to do as he sees fit with it, the people that helped him get to where he is obviously had some kind of deal with him before the payout happened. Legally that is the only thing he is obligated to do.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:41
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How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance
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Sep 16, 2014 19:43
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Widestancer posted:Durrr people should never have to keep their resumes updated and keep current on skillets in a technical field because urrrrrrrr Hey man you shouldn't type like that people might think you are stupid or something is wrong with you. Just looking out for you.  Edit: NVM I guess you are just trolling now. Welp!
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Sep 16, 2014 19:43
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Widestancer posted:How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance i'm a welfare queen with 80 babies. you?
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Sep 16, 2014 19:44
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Widestancer posted:How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance Not exactly sure how this is relevant.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:44
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Widestancer posted:Durrr people should never have to keep their resumes updated and keep current on skillets in a technical field because urrrrrrrr Widestancer posted:How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance you seem upset
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Sep 16, 2014 19:44
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Widestancer posted:How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance Says the 'Pipeline Analyst'. How many subsidies is your company/employer benefiting from?
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Sep 16, 2014 19:46
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EmGooser posted:Very true that running a business you sometimes have to do things that are legally questionable, but as a good friend of mine says. "It is all legal until it goes to court". That in no way justifies those type of actions, but there is a grain of truth there. I would tend to take the view that if you can do something and should do something, then you must do something. So, if someone was making my company work while I hosed about doing whatever I wanted for years, and I then sold that company for 2.5 billion dollars, I would probably feel rather obligated to give them a lot of that money, as it's fairly easy to draw the conclusion that I wouldn't have a company to sell if not for their work. Then again I'd also tell the other 9 people in the room they were wrong.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:47
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Man I wish I could sell an IP for 2.5 billion dollars
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Sep 16, 2014 19:49
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OwlFancier posted:I would tend to take the view that if you can do something and should do something, then you must do something. Yes, Notch could have given every single person who ever worked for Mojang a million dollars...but how can you say he "should" do so? He was already paying them. They weren't working for free. Mojang wasn't a tiny basement company where everyone worked "for the love of the craft" and had a bunch of worthless stocks that maybe someday would be worth something. They were employees, with paychecks and benefits and the like. Yeah, it'd be a nice thing to do, but just because something is nice doesn't mean its mandatory. If Microsoft decided to enter the grocery business and bought out the chain I work for, the then-former CEO would have exactly zero obligation to hand me a stack of cash from the buyout money.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:51
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jivjov posted:Yes, Notch could have given every single person who ever worked for Mojang a million dollars...but how can you say he "should" do so? He was already paying them. They weren't working for free. Mojang wasn't a tiny basement company where everyone worked "for the love of the craft" and had a bunch of worthless stocks that maybe someday would be worth something. They were employees, with paychecks and benefits and the like. He can say should because that is his opinion. That is all most of us (maybe all of us?) have been saying. It would be a "good thing to do". We aren't pulling BS laws out of our asses and claiming he is obligated to do it and should go to jail if he doesn't. We're saying it is hosed up that he hasn't because he could and it would not hurt him financially in the least. Everyone else arguing against that is making a mountain out of a molehill here.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:53
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jivjov posted:Yeah, it'd be a nice thing to do, but just because something is nice doesn't mean its mandatory. Well, that is sort of the point of ethics? To tell you what you should do because it is, broadly speaking, nice?
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Sep 16, 2014 19:57
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Jamesman posted:We do know that Mojang is a company that handles all their poo poo really badly. We've known that for years. I guess that's kinda why everyone's so quick to assume Notch is just gonna take the money and run; Because of how he ran his company and because all the employees were idiots that accepted it. At least now maybe those unofficial Minecraft convention scams might get snuffed out earlier before kids spend the money they've been saving all year for on tickets only to be told the event is canceled like one week before it's supposed to happen.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:58
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ToastyPotato posted:Everyone else arguing against that is making a mountain out of a molehill here. More pertinently, how many would be giving a gently caress if the staff weren't American? You seem to be assuming they have to play by your rules, and unfortunately they don't. Yeah, its lovely, the moral argument is all we have, and there's nowhere to go with it after that.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:05
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OwlFancier posted:Well, that is sort of the point of ethics? To tell you what you should do because it is, broadly speaking, nice? It's been a while since I took an ethics course, so I don't remember the proper name for the system of ethics I personally prefer, but its the one where you avoid doing bad things rather than being ethically obligated to do good ones.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:06
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ewe2 posted:More pertinently, how many would be giving a gently caress if the staff weren't American? You seem to be assuming they have to play by your rules, and unfortunately they don't. Yeah, its lovely, the moral argument is all we have, and there's nowhere to go with it after that. Mojang isn't American? I thought there were only a couple of Americans there? jivjov posted:It's been a while since I took an ethics course, so I don't remember the proper name for the system of ethics I personally prefer, but its the one where you avoid doing bad things rather than being ethically obligated to do good ones. Doing the bare minimum in life? "Well I haven't KILLED anyone so you can't really say I'm a bad person!" *steps over someone passed out on the sidewalk.*
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Sep 16, 2014 20:10
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jivjov posted:It's been a while since I took an ethics course, so I don't remember the proper name for the system of ethics I personally prefer, but its the one where you avoid doing bad things rather than being ethically obligated to do good ones. "Laziness?"
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Sep 16, 2014 20:15
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It's kind of interesting that Phil Fish goes nuts and tries to sell his business for any amount at all to get out, and then shortly after Notch sells Mojang for $2.5 Billion.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:16
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ToastyPotato posted:Doing the bare minimum in life? "Well I haven't KILLED anyone so you can't really say I'm a bad person!" *steps over someone passed out on the sidewalk.* OwlFancier posted:"Laziness?" Not what I meant, and I have a sneaking suspicion you full well know that.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:17
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I'm pretty sure you said exactly this: I will watch an entire school full of cancer-surviving paraplegic orphans burn down while eating popcorn and smirking as long as it wasn't me that lit the fire. Heh. Edit: Has anyone heard from kas? I presume he'll keep developing his pack.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:18
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ToastyPotato posted:Mojang isn't American? I thought there were only a couple of Americans there? Yeah I should have said some staff were American, but the assumptions about startups and fairness are all American assumptions. Mojang was never in that position so why bring up irrelevant rules? I just assume it's because Americans are involved.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:19
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All of you are irredeemably lovely posters.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:20
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jivjov posted:Not what I meant, and I have a sneaking suspicion you full well know that. You shouldn't make assumptions. If you meant something, you should probably just say it, because what you said is that you prefer the form of ethics where you are not obligated to do good things so long as you do not do bad things. ewe2 posted:Yeah I should have said some staff were American, but the assumptions about startups and fairness are all American assumptions. Mojang was never in that position so why bring up irrelevant rules? I just assume it's because Americans are involved.  What? Outside of the dude who moved from Seattle, who in Mojang is American and noteworthy enough that it would make Americans in this thread somehow go apeshit at some perceived injustice? The only people I ever hear anyone talk about at Mojang are European and Australian, unless Jeb is American and I just didn't realize it. Either way, that is a weird rear end assumption. ToastyPotato fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 20:20
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jivjov posted:Not what I meant, and I have a sneaking suspicion you full well know that. I know it's not what you meant, I just disagree with that particular ethical philosophy on the grounds that you can achieve it by doing absolutely nothing.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:21
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ToastyPotato posted:Doing the bare minimum in life? "Well I haven't KILLED anyone so you can't really say I'm a bad person!" *steps over someone passed out on the sidewalk.* lovely Wizard posted:Says the 'Pipeline Analyst'. How many subsidies is your company/employer benefiting from? jivjov is the only one with a clue in this thread at all
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Sep 16, 2014 20:22
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Games thread? Better turn it into LF
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Sep 16, 2014 20:22
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I would consider "stepping over a passed out person on the sidewalk" or "watching an orphanage burn" to be actively bad things. I.e. making an active choice not to help an obviously imperiled person or persons. But "Not giving my paid employees an extra bonus" isn't a bad thing. It would be super cool and awesome, but not doing it is not bad.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:23
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jivjov posted:I would consider "stepping over a passed out person on the sidewalk" or "watching an orphanage burn" to be actively bad things. I.e. making an active choice not to help an obviously imperiled person or persons. Ok then, what about increasing the chances that your employees will be fired by selling your profitable business to someone else who has no obligation or reason to keep them employed and not at the very least insuring them against potential downsizing by dividing about 1% of the pay out amongst them? It's not a legal obligation, but it would, in this case, seem like an ethical one to me.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:26
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Widestancer posted:Games thread? Widestancer posted:How many of the people in here bitching about the sale are on some form of public assistance lol
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Sep 16, 2014 20:28
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Just lol if you even
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Sep 16, 2014 20:30
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ToastyPotato posted:Ok then, what about increasing the chances that your employees will be fired by selling your profitable business to someone else who has no obligation or reason to keep them employed and not at the very least insuring them against potential downsizing by dividing about 1% of the pay out amongst them? It's not a legal obligation, but it would, in this case, seem like an ethical one to me. The burden of that choice is on Microsoft. Notch took care of his employees as long as they were his employees to take care of. They passed into the employ of Microsoft and if they fire them all, that's their moral choice, not Notch's.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:31
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jivjov posted:The burden of that choice is on Microsoft. Notch took care of his employees as long as they were his employees to take care of. They passed into the employ of Microsoft and if they fire them all, that's their moral choice, not Notch's.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:31
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jivjov posted:The burden of that choice is on Microsoft. Notch took care of his employees as long as they were his employees to take care of. They passed into the employ of Microsoft and if they fire them all, that's their moral choice, not Notch's. He made the choice to sell. He wasn't forced to sell by Microsoft.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:33
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It's not personal, it's business 
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Sep 16, 2014 20:33
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Don't worry, Microsoft has a very strong track record of doing amazing things with Scandanavian businesses they purchase
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Sep 16, 2014 20:34
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jivjov posted:The burden of that choice is on Microsoft. Notch took care of his employees as long as they were his employees to take care of. They passed into the employ of Microsoft and if they fire them all, that's their moral choice, not Notch's. I gave my dog to a twitchy looking guy on the street waving a knife around and the guy stabbed the dog and ate it. I am not ethically responsible for this.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:35
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ToastyPotato posted:He made the choice to sell. He wasn't forced to sell by Microsoft. Yes, but selling was his choice and his right and does not directly imperil Mojang's employees. Yeah, we can doom-and-gloom speculate all we want about how Microsoft is going to treat them, but there's no definitive proof that Microsoft is gonna turn around and let them all go tomorrow.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:36
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