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OwlFancier posted:I gave my dog to a twitchy looking guy on the street waving a knife around and the guy stabbed the dog and ate it. I am not ethically responsible for this. These two things are definitely equivalent
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Sep 16, 2014 20:36
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I think bringing "ethics" into this gives the idea a completely different notion than what it really warrants. If Notch gave a part of his money to the people who were at the company, even if as low as 0.001%, that would be "nice". Not "ethical". In the end, it's really down to what kind of person Notch is and how much he wants to not give the government, I guess. Scandinavians tend to be very weird about the whole thing, so it's hard to see where he goes when he's already gone this way after all he's said and done before. Can't deny that he's being a hypocrite though.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:37
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All this 'RARGH gently caress NOTCH' poo poo is tedious and has almost nothing to do with Minecraft, can we please go back to talking about how badly Microsoft is going to gently caress up this game going forward because that's at least talking about the game and not a person who is no longer involved with the game
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Sep 16, 2014 20:37
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ToastyPotato posted:Either way, that is a weird rear end assumption. You're all quoting Google Microsoft and Facebook as examples, talking about Silicon Valley tech startup share disbursements and applying them to a limited private Swedish company. Weird rear end, alright. Speaking as an Australian, I find that to be a cultural assumption, sorry if you can't see that. It doesn't change the moral dimension, but business law isn't about ethics.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:41
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Cubey posted:All this 'RARGH gently caress NOTCH' poo poo is tedious and has almost nothing to do with Minecraft, can we please go back to talking about how badly Microsoft is going to gently caress up this game going forward because that's at least talking about the game and not a person who is no longer involved with the game You first? jivjov posted:Yes, but selling was his choice and his right and does not directly imperil Mojang's employees. Yeah, we can doom-and-gloom speculate all we want about how Microsoft is going to treat them, but there's no definitive proof that Microsoft is gonna turn around and let them all go tomorrow. If you don't want to have a speculative discussion, you probably shouldn't participate in one. Anyway, it does directly imperil the employees because there was no threat to their jobs before selling, outside of a meteor crashing into the offices while they were in it or something. Mojang was making money hand over fist with no real signs of slowing down any time soon, so yes, making the decision to sell them off does put them at risk where there was previously less risk, and that risk could have been completely mitigated had he given them a tiny percentage as bonus for the sale. I reaaaaaally do not understand how this is difficult to grasp.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:42
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Pictures of Notch walking out of the room after making the deal with Microsoft have surfaced:
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Sep 16, 2014 20:44
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ToastyPotato posted:If you don't want to have a speculative discussion, you probably shouldn't participate in one. Do you really believe that there was literally zero threat to the jobs of anyone at Mojang pre-sale? That's not how business works. At any point the company could have downsized or let people go in order to make more money by not having as many people on payroll.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:45
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jivjov posted:Do you really believe that there was literally zero threat to the jobs of anyone at Mojang pre-sale? That's not how business works. At any point the company could have downsized or let people go in order to make more money by not having as many people on payroll. So "less" threat then. One word in one sentence changed. (Even though I actually ended up saying less instead of zero later in the post.)
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Sep 16, 2014 20:49
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ToastyPotato posted:So "less" threat then. One word in one sentence changed. (Even though I actually ended up saying less instead of zero later in the post.) So are you arguing that a business owner is morally obligated to never under any circumstances take any action that exposes his employees to any risk?
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Sep 16, 2014 20:51
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Where was this level of outrage when Ken Levine shuttered Irrational?
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Sep 16, 2014 20:52
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jivjov posted:So are you arguing that a business owner is morally obligated to never under any circumstances take any action that exposes his employees to any risk? I'm arguing that a business owner of a business that is wildly successful shouldn't increase the risk to his employees for personal gain, and at the very least should find a way to insure them against that increased risk.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:54
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Cubey posted:Where was this level of outrage when Ken Levine shuttered Irrational? It probably wasn't in the minecraft thread
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Sep 16, 2014 20:54
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I dont think they will downsize. There is a lot of work to do to recoup that 2.5billion+operating costs.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:54
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ToastyPotato posted:I'm arguing that a business owner of a business that is wildly successful shouldn't increase the risk to his employees for personal gain, and at the very least should find a way to insure them against that increased risk. So now you're arguing that business itself is immoral...as what purpose is there to business (for the owner) than to gain?
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Sep 16, 2014 20:55
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OwlFancier posted:I would tend to take the view that if you can do something and should do something, then you must do something. So I assume this is going to be your last post before you sell all your unnecessary poo poo like games consoles, for example, and donate the proceeds to starving african orphans? After all if you can do something good you're ethically obligated to do it, right? Or does your strong sense of ethics only apply to other people?
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Sep 16, 2014 20:55
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Joshlemagne posted:So I assume this is going to be your last post before you sell all your unnecessary poo poo like games consoles, for example, and donate the proceeds to starving african orphans? After all if you can do something good you're ethically obligated to do it, right? Or does your strong sense of ethics only apply to other people? lol
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Sep 16, 2014 20:57
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notch is just now getting his money. He may very well donate some of it or start some non-profit. Better he have it then ms. 2.5bill is stupid money. STUPID. Notch could make financial mistakes until he is in the ground and still have enough left over for 2 generations.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:58
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jivjov posted:So now you're arguing that business itself is immoral...as what purpose is there to business (for the owner) than to gain? Remember when you brought up your ethical preference about choices? I tied this directly to that, why are you trying to deflect away from that suddenly? Notch made a choice that increased risk to his employees and then made another choice to not mitigate that risk. He made these choices for personal gain and didn't have to as his business had already made him quite wealthy.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:59
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Joshlemagne posted:So I assume this is going to be your last post before you sell all your unnecessary poo poo like games consoles, for example, and donate the proceeds to starving african orphans? After all if you can do something good you're ethically obligated to do it, right? Or does your strong sense of ethics only apply to other people? No it applies to me as well, which is why about three quarters of my disposable income is spent on other people.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:59
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ToastyPotato posted:Remember when you brought up your ethical preference about choices? I tied this directly to that, why are you trying to deflect away from that suddenly? Notch made a choice that increased risk to his employees and then made another choice to not mitigate that risk. He made these choices for personal gain and didn't have to as his business had already made him quite wealthy. I don't see how any of this "increased risk" is anything other than conjecture and hypothetical at this point. Everything we've seen so far suggests that every single person employed by Mojang is still employed by Mojang. Yeah, Microsoft could downsize. Yeah, Microsoft could fire them all. But Notch could have done exactly the same thing. Notch could have halted development on Minecraft and declared it finished and moved everyone on to other projects.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:02
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All you people crying about how notch should give equity do realize it's not as simple as saying OK GIVE <insert employee> 2 SHARES OF THE COMPANY! #DONE! There's multiple kinds of equity along with multiple ways about giving said equity along with a metric fuckload of taxes. If notch never bothered with setting up an options pool that's months of work to figure out, define and distribute accordingly. Not only that we could go into preferred/common stock and really open up the can of worms along with tax implications on both, especially in the event of an acquisition.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:05
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The Minecraft Modding thread--a thread for the discussion of mods made by an absolutely toxic cesspool of a community--is more civil than this thread
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Sep 16, 2014 21:05
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jivjov posted:I don't see how any of this "increased risk" is anything other than conjecture and hypothetical at this point. Everything we've seen so far suggests that every single person employed by Mojang is still employed by Mojang. Yeah, Microsoft could downsize. Yeah, Microsoft could fire them all. But Notch could have done exactly the same thing. Notch could have halted development on Minecraft and declared it finished and moved everyone on to other projects. If he did those things that would also have been his choice. Do you see how that works? Also I do not see the point in stressing that as of 4pm EST, Mojang employees are still employed. Against, this is a speculative discussion, which means looking forward (for someone so intent in talking about the business end of things, you sure seem averse to speculation, which is a massive part of doing business...) From every bit of information we have, there was no reason to suspect future downsizing at Mojang in the near future. Notch could have mentioned that in his letter, essentially admitting that he had to sell it to save it, but he didn't say that, and no one at Mojang has said that. It is increased risk because the chances of Mojang employees now having a redundant position and replaceable position is now greatly increased since they have joined a massive corporation. flyboi posted:All you people crying about how notch should give equity do realize it's not as simple as saying OK GIVE <insert employee> 2 SHARES OF THE COMPANY! #DONE! What about a bonus check as opposed to stock options? Would that have not been simpler and more immediate?
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Sep 16, 2014 21:08
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flyboi posted:All you people crying about how notch should give equity do realize it's not as simple as saying OK GIVE <insert employee> 2 SHARES OF THE COMPANY! #DONE! No. Not... months of work. That's... how could anyone possibly hope to accomplish that.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:12
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Ciaphas posted:The Minecraft Modding thread--a thread for the discussion of mods made by an absolutely toxic cesspool of a community--is more civil than this thread No it's not.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:15
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TheKingofSprings posted:Man I wish I could sell an IP for 2.5 billion dollars This is basically all I have come to the conclusion of from this long discussion. God drat I wish I had 2.5 billion dollars. OwlFancier posted:I gave my dog to a twitchy looking guy on the street waving a knife around and the guy stabbed the dog and ate it. I am not ethically responsible for this. That's what you get for being a character in American Psycho. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 21:16
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ToastyPotato posted:What about a bonus check as opposed to stock options? Would that have not been simpler and more immediate? No you see, all of these workers weren't there when Notch got this genius idea to make a block game, so they don't deserve any of the $2,500,000,000.00 that Notch and his two associates made on this deal. Even if Notch gets only half of that money after taxes, he is worth over 31,000 times the per capita GDP of your average Swede. Yeah he's not legally obligated to share some of this (obscene) wealth but god drat am I going to judge him for not doing it. Especially since some of his old employees are likely going to have to find another job soon.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:19
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OwlFancier posted:No it applies to me as well, which is why about three quarters of my disposable income is spent on other people. The fact that you're posting here means you've failed your own ethical system. How many cans of soup for homeless people could that 10 bucks have bought? Also people should maybe read this. This isn't exactly a new problem.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:28
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None of these employees earned their share of this money. They were doing their jobs. Jobs that they were already compensated for. If he had not sold Mojang few people would be arguing that he should donate millions to his employees. He was already very rich and could have given these employees significant sums already. There is no threshold, crossed when the money in your account goes from £99,999,999.99 to £100,000,000, which triggers this moral obligation to start paying out. Please could you create an algebraic formula, which factors sale price, number of employees and the sum required for 2-10 generations of your family to live comfortably, so that a person knows when they are morally obligated to contribute. This thread is fantastic.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:34
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Lets try to settle the abortion argument now. Minecrafters, when does life begin?
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Sep 16, 2014 21:35
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Mystic_Shadow posted:No you see, all of these workers weren't there when Notch got this genius idea to make a block game, so they don't deserve any of the $2,500,000,000.00 that Notch and his two associates made on this deal. Even if Notch gets only half of that money after taxes, he is worth over 31,000 times the per capita GDP of your average Swede. For me, it isn't even about "deserving" part of the buy out money, since that is a word a lot of people get hung up on. It is more that, he could cut them some checks for a tiny percentage of the money for no other reason than simply saying "I'm sorry I can't do this anymore, and I don't know what MS will do when I am gone, so take this bonus as a token of gratitude and as personal apology from me" and he would come out looking like an angel in the end, doing right by people he employed, even when he wasn't going to be employing them any longer, not because he legally had to, but simply because he could.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:36
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Schweinhund posted:Lets try to settle the abortion argument now. Minecrafters, when does life begin? When you have a company and employees that you are now legally and financially responsible for.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:37
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You'd think Notch would be proud enough of the company he created being so successful that he sold it for $2.5billion that he would see some sort of satisfaction in seeing the 30 or so employees of it doing very well for themselves. I don't think it's a question of ethics but it does show that Notch really felt very little attachment to his baby. I think it shows Notch as being a very insular person.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:40
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Joshlemagne posted:The fact that you're posting here means you've failed your own ethical system. How many cans of soup for homeless people could that 10 bucks have bought? I don't expect people to live as ascetics. I do expect people to make a token effort. Also I would generally argue that personal obligations should probably be the primary focus of altruism. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 21:42
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I'm pretty sure that passionate arguments over how Mojang financially compensates employees is just redirected angst over Minecraft's uncertain future. V  V
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Sep 16, 2014 21:46
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ToastyPotato posted:For me, it isn't even about "deserving" part of the buy out money, since that is a word a lot of people get hung up on. It is more that, he could cut them some checks for a tiny percentage of the money for no other reason than simply saying "I'm sorry I can't do this anymore, and I don't know what MS will do when I am gone, so take this bonus as a token of gratitude and as personal apology from me" and he would come out looking like an angel in the end, doing right by people he employed, even when he wasn't going to be employing them any longer, not because he legally had to, but simply because he could. Can you not understand that he still could do this? Was he supposed to conjure 30 bonus checks out of his rear end in a top hat and hand them out as soon as he signed the deal? I'd bet anything he'll give a bonus to them sometime soon, possibly with their next paycheck. And I just found this article from 2 years ago about the greedy moneygrubbing Notch who hates his employees: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/02/markus-notch-persson-gives-3-million_n_1317396.html
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Sep 16, 2014 21:55
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Schweinhund posted:Can you not understand that he still could do this? Was he supposed to conjure 30 bonus checks out of his rear end in a top hat and hand them out as soon as he signed the deal? I'd bet anything he'll give a bonus to them sometime soon, possibly with their next paycheck. Of course he "could" still do this. No poo poo. But he released a massive statement yesterday that gave no indication that he would and has gone silent on Twitter. In other words, he hasn't done it and hasn't said he would do it.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:58
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Flayer posted:You'd think Notch would be proud enough of the company he created being so successful that he sold it for $2.5billion that he would see some sort of satisfaction in seeing the 30 or so employees of it doing very well for themselves. I don't think it's a question of ethics but it does show that Notch really felt very little attachment to his baby. I think it shows Notch as being a very insular person. Given the amount of money he throws at the various Minecraft oriented charity drives, I sincerely doubt that he's going to let his former co-workers go unrewarded in some fashion. The man may have no PR skills, social skills, tact or common sense, but he's always backpedaled whenever he truly does do something lovely and enough if the right people call him on it. I just think it will be a while before the 'community' tantrum fades to the point where he can actually hear those people through the noise.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:01
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Raphus C posted:None of these employees earned their share of this money. Ehhh, this line if thought is pretty insidious. You could claim that Jeb deserves a much larger chunk of the pie than notch, after notch decided to stop actively developing the game and had Jeb take over. For the last few years his work has been the biggest share of progress the game had seen during a time of many, many continued sales. I'm not arguing one way or the other but if "they were just doing their jobs" is the logic behind your point, doing what they were doing contributed to a larger continued success for the company(and as such, more value added to the price tag of the buyout) as a whole than anything Notch himself has done for quite a long time. Skaw fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 22:09
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~8 years ago, the private company I worked for was acquired by a large, publicly-traded corporation. poo poo definitely changed, but things settled down and those employees that didn't leave of their own accord still have their jobs (or a better one). I still work there and while a bunch of stuff is different, I couldn't tell you if it's better or worse. I still love my job and have tons of leeway and room for creativity, but there's more red tape. I have praised that red tape as often as I have cursed it. Also, more frequent performance increases, stock sharing, tons of paid time off and Christmas bonuses  I'm just trying to give an anecdote to illustrate that programmers can have their company acquired by a massive corporation (that is broadly seen as evil, like ours) and reap benefits. Some Mojang employees might find a home at Microsoft; MS definitely knows how to treat it's smart employees. MS also knows how to get rid of unwanted employees, which could also be good for Minecraft.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:10
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