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Cardboard Box A posted:Frozen was anime as gently caress What does this even mean anymore? Anime is turning into the most egregious internet buzzword.
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Sep 12, 2014 03:28
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I recently went to Japan for 7 weeks and no matter where I went, there was LET IT GO. Except in Japanese. On all the intercoms in every single department store and shopping mall. In Okinawa it was on the music channel at my friend's parents' house, with Japanese singers dressed up like Elsa, Anna and Hans, re-enacting musical numbers from the movie. I even ended up singing it twice at a Tokyo karaoke bar in both languages. So I'm not saying it's "anime as gently caress" exactly, but they sure seem to love it over there.    Ari no! Mama no! Sugata miseru no yo!!
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Sep 12, 2014 04:21
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Eggie posted:What does this even mean anymore? Anime is turning into the most egregious internet buzzword. I can't tell, is your post ironic or just extremely self-unaware
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Sep 12, 2014 06:07
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Frozen was everywhere over here too. They got it later though.
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Sep 12, 2014 07:13
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Eggie posted:What does this even mean anymore? Anime is turning into the most egregious internet buzzword. Big eyes. It used to mean the dialog conventions as well, like...with the long... ...sometimes awkward dramatic pauses and silent stares ... and the like, but now it's just big eyes. Garfield would be anime as gently caress if anybody read it anymore. The internet has perverted a
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Sep 12, 2014 07:48
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Nah, Garfield's still safe. It's big eyes with colored irises what'll get ya. SpongeBob is anime as gently caress.
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Sep 12, 2014 10:51
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GonSmithe posted:Cross-posting from the HTTYD2 thread because holy poo poo: That's 3ds max 6+ with some professional-quality rigging and a Cintiq...? Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 12:50
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Depending on context, I'd wager "anime" would mean either bearing a tone, aesthetic, or execution similar to Masashi Kishimoto's ongoing manga Naruto. Anyway, another thing I liked about Kung-Fu Panda 2 is when Tigress hugged Po after he came clean about his familial problems. I don't think there was any explicit reference to Tigress' background in the movie, aside from punching iron until her nerve endings got fried. That said, I couldn't stop thinking about Po's story about Tigress from the Furious Five extra every time the two of them talked about Po's past.
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Sep 12, 2014 13:37
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Fishylungs posted:It should be noted the partnership in question is between the Foodfight people and the illustrious studio that brought us every Land Before Time sequel To be fair, back when I was a stupid kid I loved Land Before Time 2, so I guess they're doing just fine with their target demographic? Then again, even as a stupid kid I recognized the first Land Before Time as a beautiful and emotional classic that'd become one of my all time favorite animated movies and the sequel was just a fun cartoon about what happens during happily ever after.
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Sep 12, 2014 14:22
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:That's 3ds max 6+ with some professional-quality rigging and a Cintiq...? Something like that. But the rigged control handles are intuitively reachable by directly manipulating the high quality and fully shaded model. It seems animator friendly.
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Sep 12, 2014 16:50
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GonSmithe posted:Cross-posting from the HTTYD2 thread because holy poo poo: This makes me so mad that HTTYD2 is getting kicked to the curb by Dreamworks producers harder than it should. "Hey, great job at making a stellar animated film that was a lot of fun and cracked 90% on the RT scale. Sadly, the film only made 'quite a lot of money' and not 'all the money in the world' so we're laying off most of the animation department and pushing the sequel back another year."
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Sep 12, 2014 17:05
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Eggie posted:What does this even mean anymore? Anime is turning into the most egregious internet buzzword. Well, the main characters do have anime-sized eyes. But other than that, it is profoundly stupid to call it "anime" because Frozen is fairly feminist by Hollywood standards, and there is not a single anime ever produced that isn't at least somewhat misogynist. We bitch about how terrible American culture can be about women, with good reason, but Japan is INFINITELY WORSE.
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Sep 12, 2014 19:53
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Actually, I think Hayao Miyazaki's films contain a lot of feminist-friendly themes. (I'd say that for Ghibli in general, actually.) Otherwise, yes, Japan's overall misogyny AND racism is pretty jaw-dropping. But, something can be "anime-esque" in its style or aesthetics without incorporating elements from Japanese culture. I don't see it for Frozen, personally. Tartarus Sauce fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 23:37
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Spatula City posted:Well, the main characters do have anime-sized eyes. But other than that, it is profoundly stupid to call it "anime" because Frozen is fairly feminist by Hollywood standards, and there is not a single anime ever produced that isn't at least somewhat misogynist. We bitch about how terrible American culture can be about women, with good reason, but Japan is INFINITELY WORSE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.hack//Sign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Son http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Girl_Utena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_A_Gundam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist These are all about as feminist as Frozen is, if not more. (Definitely more in Wandering Son and Turn A Gundam's case, since, y'know, positive LGBT representation.) e: Funny story about Turn A Gundam- the protagonist was originally supposed to be a cisgendered girl, but Bandai was like "hell no nobody will buy this" (which I guess kind of proves your point, but still) so instead the creator of the show made the protagonist a male-bodied non-binary person. By trying to excise the progressiveness out of the show, Bandai ended up making it more progressive. SALT CURES HAM fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 23:41
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FMA isn't really that feminist; the story is primarily about two brothers and the recurring theme is absent fathers. I mean yeah there's a girl that's a non-traditional role ( a mechanic/engineer) but that's about it.
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Sep 13, 2014 00:09
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computer parts posted:FMA isn't really that feminist; the story is primarily about two brothers and the recurring theme is absent fathers. There are female characters in military positions, a woman who is the two main character's teacher who taught them combat and advanced alchemy, an antagonistic female character... Hell, there are more than just Winry. So yeah, while the story is primarily about the two brothers, saying that there's just the mechanic in a non-traditional role is glancing over it too much. It would have been better if the author (also a female) could make a story that had female protagonists, but as it is, there are a lot of female characters in FMA that serve pretty important roles within the narrative itself. Sorry, for the anime sperging.
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Sep 13, 2014 00:15
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computer parts posted:FMA isn't really that feminist; the story is primarily about two brothers and the recurring theme is absent fathers. A pretty large chunk of the cast is really well-written female characters and it's written by a woman.  e:f,b
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Sep 13, 2014 00:18
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I tend to think of feminist as meaning as fundamental disruption, subversion, satire, or rejection of a patriarchal or otherwise phallocentric system, not simply that women are in positions of power or act against stereotype. Women have power and acting against stereotype really isn't implicitly feminist, especially since patriarchal systems always involve at least some degree of superficial egalitarianism.
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Sep 13, 2014 00:42
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Monster and 20th Century Boys. Nina's not a love interest, Eva goes through her own journey and has an excellent character arc and Kanna is the most capable of the protagonists. I feel like I never shut up about him, but I loving adore Urasawa.  I don't feel like the story necessarily has to be about women to be feminist. It's more about how the author treats them: as developed characters with their own agency or just devices. Or some boobs.
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Sep 13, 2014 00:42
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K. Waste posted:I tend to think of feminist as meaning as fundamental disruption, subversion, satire, or rejection of a patriarchal or otherwise phallocentric system, not simply that women are in positions of power or act against stereotype. Women have power and acting against stereotype really isn't implicitly feminist, especially since patriarchal systems always involve at least some degree of superficial egalitarianism. Then Frozen isn't feminist either. At all. e: seriously, by the definition you're using it's impossible for any major studio movie to be feminist, and ESPECIALLY a Disney movie because of how entrenched they are in the patriarchal system (and how much of a debt that system owes to them in the modern day). SALT CURES HAM fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 01:28
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K. Waste posted:I tend to think of feminist as meaning as fundamental disruption, subversion, satire, or rejection of a patriarchal or otherwise phallocentric system, not simply that women are in positions of power or act against stereotype. Women have power and acting against stereotype really isn't implicitly feminist, especially since patriarchal systems always involve at least some degree of superficial egalitarianism. What would your thoughts be on something like Irontown in Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke? For context (if you haven't seen the film) it's a small industrial colony that's angered the gods/spirits of the nearby forest. It survives off gun-smithing, iron-smelting, and other nature-unfriendly things. But the colony is controlled by a woman, it's defended by women, and production is done by women (though there are men in the village). Life there is joyful, even romanticized:  I mean, I think there's a pretty clear feminist reading of this; heck, a lot of the women there are escaped prostitutes who end up blasting patriarchal lords with the high-caliber fruits of their labor. But that power does still come from exploitation of the environment and the capacity to do violence. Irontown is an alternative to feudal drudgery, but it's also a fictional, idealistic image in a way all the random rear end in a top hat samurai in the film aren't. But maybe the realism doesn't matter in a movie with magic talking pig gods v v? It also creates a sort of fake-history where early industrialization empowers the oppressed, which can be read in a lot of ways. This isn't a challenge or anything, I think you have an interesting angle here and your insights into Prince of Egypt were pretty rad.
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Sep 13, 2014 01:50
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Then Frozen isn't feminist either. At all. See, that's where you're kind of off. True, Elsa doesn't do anything truly radical, like, say, destroying the monarchy and ushering in an anarcho-syndaclist kingdom united with the trolls, but because she's literally a witch whose very touch and essence 'freezes' the symbols of Judeo-Christian dominion, her assumption of the throne and Anna's rejection of 'Prince Charming' (not to mention the old, decrepit Duke) is a tacit rejection of a traditionalist patriarchal paradigm. This is in stark contrast with the usual Disney princess movie formula, where the most the 'strong female protagonist' can hope for is that she eventually sides with the 'truly good' patriarch and learns to see how awesome patriarchy is (see: Tarzan, Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, etc.) The thing is, though, that just because Frozen is somewhat feminist doesn't make it a good movie. It's interesting that you see my definition of feminism as problematic because "it's impossible for any major studio movie to be feminist," because in general you should be actively skeptical of any superficially 'rebellious' or 'subversive' works that result from an "entrenched... patriarchal system." My definition of a feminist work is entirely concerned with politics, not with emotion. The problem with Frozen is that it is absolutely a feminist movie, but in a contemporary sense of commoditized feminism, where the primary concern is the 'self-esteem' of the woman and not the corruption of the paradigms that surround her. Neither Elsa nor Anna are what I would call 'outwardly identifiable.' I.e. they aren't individuals who undertake tasks in personal defiance of 'the system' (like most male protagonists, who are often even amoralistic, though we sympathize with them because they stand against imperialism or corruption or what-have-you); but, rather, they are 'inwardly identifiable,' motivated by personal feelings of shame or inadequacy or boredom which push them towards personal realization. By emphasizing 'self-esteem' rather than the 'will to power,' Frozen stops being about unique individuals who possess some innate quality that makes them the hero, and instead becomes a vessel that invites the audience to pour its own insecurities and shame and boredom into in order to experience catharsis. You'll also see this sort of thing in this year's Divergent, where Shaine Woodley's character inexplicably decides to join the fascist army and becomes an expert warrior even though she has crippling low self-esteem and too much compassion to be a good fascist. In both cases, the filmmakers specifically construct characters that anybody could inwardly identify with, rather than characters who possess some innate strength or superiority that risks alienating people who desperately need to believe the reason they don't succeed is because of 'oppression' and not their own personal lack of talent. It's feminism without the discipline, in much the same way that right-wingers wax on and on about Christian moral values but rarely actually advocate total divestment from the state or suicidal pacifism. It's feminist in the same way that Marie Antoinette really was quite feminist for her time, but was still a corrupt classist whose head was on the block when the actual revolution came. This is kind of way I have much more affinity for classic Disney princess films than the Disney Renaissance or even more recent stuff like Frozen. Something like Sleeping Beauty isn't feminist at all, but it actually manages to make a cogent social point that people often ignore was really significant for the time in which it was made. In Sleeping Beauty the implication is that if the drunkard kings and asexual fairies had just let Aurora gallivant in the forests of lust with a strange boy - to actively and outwardly pursue who desires as a young and relatively independent woman - they would not have literally led her into Maleficent's trap. The message of Sleeping Beauty is, "For the love of God, let the girl live a little, would ya?!" Bendigeidfran posted:What would your thoughts be on something like Irontown in Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke? Princess Mononoke is actually awesome because it's feminist in the most subtle way. Irontown is like a romantic vision of the Greek Amazons, except it's informed by none of the underlying misogyny. (There's no point, for instance, in which Ashitaka beds Eboshi because he's just 'such a man.') Miyazaki crafts a story in which the opposing forces are both powerful women (even the wolves are led by a matriarch) and it is never commented upon because it treats this fact as totally legitimate and irrelevant to larger ethical issues, such as ecological exploitation, spirituality and religion, etc. The female characters in Princess Mononoke are outwardly identifiable - they actively want things that have nothing to do with their 'touchy feelies' and pursue them without reservation because they believe it in their souls to be right. In Frozen nobody actually cares about what the 'right' thing is. People are so consumed with themselves that the end becomes about controlling your own narcissism.
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Sep 13, 2014 02:32
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K. Waste posted:
I agree with you for the most part, though I have problems with your use of "larger ethical issues"; I would say the film makes a direct link between the exploitation of women under feudalism (as reproductive means to political ends) and the unthinking exploitation of natural resources as a means to improve human life. There's pretty heavy criticism of Lady Eboshi throughout since she has no problems with murdering and restricting forest spirits so long as human lives are enriched. She could sympathize with the spirits or recognize that they're slowly fading away, but she doesn't. She denies them the moral worth they clearly have. I'd go so far as to say that if she were more emotional, or at least sympathetic, that many of the film's conflicts wouldn't have happened. So Miyazaki presents ecological destruction as a parallel issue to women's equality ethically and shows the way the two could conflict. Basically that if women do become equal some could decide to perpetuate patriarchal values and those values would still be a bad thing. It's less that it's treating a feminist society as backdrop so much as speculating on what issues such a society would still face and how those issues can inform the (present day, still-necessary-especially-in-Japan) feminist movement. Bendigeidfran fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 03:53
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Bendigeidfran posted:I agree with you for the most part, though I have problems with your use of "larger ethical issues"; I would say the film makes a direct link between the exploitation of women under feudalism (as reproductive means to political ends) and the unthinking exploitation of natural resources as a means to improve human life. There's pretty heavy criticism of Lady Eboshi throughout since she has no problems with murdering and restricting forest spirits so long as human lives are enriched. She could sympathize with the spirits or recognize that they're slowly fading away, but she doesn't. She denies them the moral worth they clearly have. I'd go so far as to say that if she were more emotional, or at least sympathetic, that many of the film's conflicts wouldn't have happened. Exactly. Yeah "larger" ethical issues was probably a little blunt, although I think it should be emphasized that as much as Lady Eboshi is clearly vilified, Miyazaki's ethical preoccupations make it very difficult to make an explicit parallel between oppression and industrialization. Let's not forget, the narrative is driven by Ashitaka basically trying to discover the 'source of hate,' and Mononoke herself turns out to be no less complicit in the intractable violence that infects the world around them. When I say "larger" ethical issues, I think a better way of saying it is that Miyazaki fairly explicitly frames the 'empowerment of women' as virtually a mute point, such that it becomes more about the environment, spirituality, and violence. That's part of what makes the movie so great, its illustrating the intersection of ethical issues without implying any naive, or overarching correlation between any of them. It comments on the empowerment of women by treating this in what, after you see it, becomes the most blisteringly simple terms that you immediately notice as absent from so many films, which is simply to portray them as outwardly identifiable, socially integral agents who are nonetheless not moral paragons. One gets the impression that the empowerment of women is a moral endeavor in and of itself, even if women effectively remain as driven by power and materialism and vengeance as men. This connects back to Frozen and the question of what constitutes a 'feminist' work. The point with Princess Mononoke is that it's a wonderfully accessible but also totally subversive film. Its ethical and political content isn't so much inconspicuous as it is unpretentious. Miyazaki isn't overtly attempting to appeal to a 'demographic' group who desires to see narratives of female empowerment, and thus makes a story that subverts gendered expectations because this is compelling. Frozen, on the other hand, is very much a film of its time, and is conspicuously about feminine empowerment. Taking a lot of its cues from Broadway musicals and T.V. shows like Glee, and epitomized by "Let It Go," it crafts a surface-level feminist narrative that directly appeals to the 'cultural consciousness' of a baseline demographic of young girls and young women and their parents, but is entirely dependent upon explicitly rejecting 'the Disney formula.' Ironically, the most important thing is still the establishment; 'feminism' is presented as merely self-conscious commentary. The Princess and the Frog also did this, which should be as vivid a sign to anybody that 'the Disney formula' has merely been replaced by another no more subversive formula. Brave also, while taking just as many queues from Miyazaki as the Disney Renaissance, is stuck in this uncomfortable in-between space, between appealing to a growing demand for 'empowerment' narratives and what amounts to basically teaching little girls to be contented with the new paradigm. Frankly, our culture is spoiled on the trivialization of feminism. In the rush to raise everybody's consciousness, we've lost sight of the fact that the revolution isn't for everybody, that politics without discipline is just conspicuous consumption and confirmation bias. Frozen is merely one of the most saturated examples, feminism as self-help sing-a-long. The highest compliment that can be paid to it is that it's not as offensively condescending as The Little Mermaid, even though it just as thoroughly bastardizes Hans Christian Anderssen's moral fairy-tales. The thing about "The Snow Queen" is that it could have very easily been turned into a Miyazaki-style adventure story, with thrills, chills, and an absolutely epic and emotionally powerful conclusion. But instead of an actual subversion - a deliberate recontextualizing of Anderssen's story of faith and love in a contemporary context - we got a self-conscious empowerment narrative that condescended to the expectations of the audience for a 'Disney princess film' and all the comforting reassurance that entails.
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Sep 13, 2014 06:08
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Incidentally, does anyone know if The Tale of Princess Kaguya will have a wide release in the States? There's a critical lack of art/indie theaters in my area.
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Sep 14, 2014 00:39
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haha considering The Wind Rises, i.e. the one with the director people here have actually heard of didn't I wouldn't count on it. I looked at my local indie theater's upcoming schedule and it's conspicuously absent, which is worrying. Hopefully just 'cause it's more than a month off...
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Sep 14, 2014 05:05
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SALT CURES HAM posted:e: Funny story about Turn A Gundam- the protagonist was originally supposed to be a cisgendered girl, but Bandai was like "hell no nobody will buy this" (which I guess kind of proves your point, but still) so instead the creator of the show made the protagonist a male-bodied non-binary person. By trying to excise the progressiveness out of the show, Bandai ended up making it more progressive.  What, where on earth did you even get that from? Loran's just a guy.
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Sep 14, 2014 08:11
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Does anyone have a link to the old Foodfight thread?
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Sep 14, 2014 10:10
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U.T. Raptor posted:
A guy who spends a very large chunk of the show presenting as female. Like, not just crossdressing, straight up assuming a female identity.
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Sep 14, 2014 11:46
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Does anyone have a link to the old Foodfight thread? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3538818&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=17 This one?
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Sep 14, 2014 11:58
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SALT CURES HAM posted:A guy who spends a very large chunk of the show presenting as female. Like, not just crossdressing, straight up assuming a female identity. To follow up on this a bit: Loran taking on the role of Laura Rolla is a pretty direct parallel to Kihel and Dianna switching roles, and the overall argument that the Moonrace/Earthrace distinction is false and performed for an audience. I'd say one of the primary themes of Turn A Gundam is that dichotomies like male/female, military/civilian, rich/poor, white/black (subtly), and self/foreigner are mostly arbitrary and lead to oppression and war. Symbolically, Loran usually represents the union between two "opposing" sides, so it's not baseless to read the character as outside the gender binary. I will admit it's complicated: you could also argue that Guin imposes the female role onto Loran as subordination, and there's also Loran's complete lack of romantic/sexual agency despite being like 17.  Bear in mind that I don't think Tomino is intentionally incorporating queer theory into his work. He would've been nearly 60 when making the show and Japan's never really had a strong feminist presence even in academia. His observations just happen to line up with the view of gender as performative, like the poem Mulan for example. Bendigeidfran fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Sep 14, 2014 |
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Sep 14, 2014 15:37
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Bendigeidfran posted:To follow up on this a bit: Loran taking on the role of Laura Rolla is a pretty direct parallel to Kihel and Dianna switching roles, and the overall argument that the Moonrace/Earthrace distinction is false and performed for an audience. I'd say one of the primary themes of Turn A Gundam is that dichotomies like male/female, military/civilian, rich/poor, white/black (subtly), and self/foreigner are mostly arbitrary and lead to oppression and war. Symbolically, Loran usually represents the union between two "opposing" sides, so it's not baseless to read him as outside the gender binary. I will admit it's complicated: you could also argue that Guin imposes the female role onto Loran to subordinate him, and there's also Loran's complete lack of romantic/sexual agency despite being like 17. On this subject, AFAIK the whole "Tomino wanted a female protagonist but wasn't allowed to have one so he came up with an androgynous male character who often presents as a female alter ego" thing is apocryphal, and I agree that it's highly unlikely that Tomino intended to write a genderqueer/genderfluid protagonist in a giant robot anime from 1999. But I still like the idea, and anyway, an author doesn't have to deliberately incoporate queerness and feminism in a work in order for a queer/feminist reading to be viable. As for Loran's lack of a love life despite being a teenager, well, maybe he's asexual too. The only women he's close to are Sochie, whose romantic feelings for him are completely unrequited, and Dianna, to whom he's devoted in a very chaste and knightly way. After all, the series ends with (and I might be hazy on the details because it's been a while) Loran going off to live with Dianna in a cabin in the mountains while Sochie cries in the rain. I doubt Tomino intended any of this but I do like the idea of at least one anime protagonist being a genderqueer Sir Galahad. Anyway, I'd strongly recommend Turn-A to anyone, even someone who hates anime. Because, after all, Tomino hates anime too 
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Sep 14, 2014 16:55
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IUG posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3538818&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=17 This is good but I mean the original one from a couple years ago.
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Sep 14, 2014 18:31
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Bendigeidfran posted:Bear in mind that I don't think Tomino is intentionally incorporating queer theory into his work. He would've been nearly 60 when making the show and Japan's never really had a strong feminist presence even in academia. His observations just happen to line up with the view of gender as performative, like the poem Mulan for example. On the other hand, Tomino explicitly said that feminism is a big theme in the new Gundam show he's doing this season, so dude might be a little more knowledgeable on this stuff than we give him credit for. That said, even if he bumblefucked into making Turn A queer-positive, it's still queer-positive and that's still really cool.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:18
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Sony is producing a new Popeye movie directed by Genndy Tartakovsky, and they just released an animation test from it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvBU-Wsp7Mc The actual animation starts about halfway through.
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Sep 18, 2014 21:40
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Sony Pictures Animation giving Dreamworks and Pixar a run for their money animation-wise IMO. Goddamn.
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Sep 18, 2014 21:43
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It looks really nice, but god I hate that style.
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Sep 18, 2014 22:27
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It does look nice, think I could get used to it, but least he knows trying to go realistic with Popeye characters just wouldn't work.
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Sep 18, 2014 22:43
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I was about to post the same link. I really hope this movie does well. My only worry is that it'll be a bit too rapey for modern audiences. (You could always make the damsel live in luxurious captivity and be allowed to beat up on the goons who have to guard her, but this story theme will always have rapey overtones)
Sithsaber fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 22:44
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That's about as good as I could hope for for a transition from 2D to 3D animation for Popeye, wow. That short, at least, was charming.
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Sep 18, 2014 23:00
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