Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie

CHiRAL posted:

No, it's cool, none of the fruits were peanuts

Actually Hal was selling peanuts. They're stealing my ideas too the jerks.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Leatherhead
Jul 3, 2006

For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still

Random Stranger posted:

Interesting. My immediate reaction is that it would be better to finish the race to the bottom immediately and reap the early income rather than try to play for first. Unless you're in a group with players following the same strategy, you'd get on average 9000 out of the first round, then diminishing returns on each subsequent round. Your minimum possible income with this strategy is 8000, but that's only if every other player you interact with uses the exact same strategy. In a group this large I suspect that there will be at least one player scoring lower than that, and using the obfuscation abilities properly and a little bit of backstabbing means that you might be able to get the maximum potential income from this strategy two rounds in a row. I suspect that would put you firmly in the middle of the pack for the final tallies.

I wonder if you can trade and have two of the same fruit. If you and another player with one of the four fruits agree to do this, you can get a cartel going that guarantees 10,000 income for at least that round.

I'm looking forward to see how this plays out with these guys.


That was my thinking as well, but since that strategy involves kind of screwing over the other players, I think it makes you a very likely pick for the deathmatch (especially in the first episode where it's all but random), so you'd either have to ensure you were first, which is unlikely, or try and arrange it so two people tied for last, which is difficult.

CHiRAL
Mar 29, 2010

Anus.

busb posted:

Actually Hal was selling peanuts. They're stealing my ideas too the jerks.

I meant on the show! your ideas are safe.

Back on topic: is it weird of me to hope the new noona lady is going to be like Kyungran, only slightly meaner? :allears:

Running With Spoons
Oct 26, 2005
Only the spoon knows what is stirring in the pot
The subber seems to be currently uploading the first episode!

busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie
Awesome timing too, Saturday night is going to be great.

qbert
Oct 23, 2003

It's both thrilling and terrifying.
IT'S UP!!!

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009


Finished the episode. Solid start. A bit unfortunate a woman decided to pick another woman for the death match, but I think the winner was the right one given how they played it.

Biggest disappointment was no Extreme Ways, but I have hope it will show up later.

Midrena
May 2, 2009

qbert posted:

IT'S UP!!!

OH GOD I am so excited to get a free moment to watch this. I suck so bad at these strategy/logic games, it's always awesome to see what people who can actually logic their way out of a paperbag can think up :v:

Midrena fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Oct 4, 2014

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012

Josh Lyman posted:

. A bit unfortunate a woman decided to pick another woman

What?

Tonfa
Apr 8, 2008

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.
:boom:
he knows...

That deathmatch punt :negative:

Holy poo poo Juri deserved to lose that. Early play aside, just at least 4-3-3 the last rounds when the opponent has assuredly burnt out, gently caress. It's really hard to think rationally in that situation but still.


Very interesting main match, at any rate.

Also loved "...uh, human decency, you know"

Tonfa fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Oct 4, 2014

Piriwi
Feb 20, 2006
In the main match, why wouldn't you just gather up 3 people with all six fruits and just offer the lowest possible amount each round. As long as someone bets higher in the first round, how could you lose?

Piriwi fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Oct 4, 2014

busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie
Well the Change card could mean you could make a round 4 alliance with a different fruit for a $5 pact, leaving all of your $1 pact guaranteed last. Not without its risks though, and why are we spoilering theorycraft on the game rules when it doesn't spoil any of the results or anything that went on?

MoPZiG
Jun 6, 2006

Not really feeling the cast this time round, apocolypto excepted.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Tonfa posted:

That deathmatch punt :negative:

Holy poo poo Juri deserved to lose that. Early play aside, just at least 4-3-3 the last rounds when the opponent has assuredly burnt out, gently caress. It's really hard to think rationally in that situation but still.


Very interesting main match, at any rate.

Also loved "...uh, human decency, you know"

Yeah that was aggravating and that she didn't even try to count how many points had been played just made it worse.

Darksaber
Oct 18, 2001

Are you even trying?
I was really pleased with that episode. The cast is going to take a few episodes to grow on me, but it looks like there's a nice mixture of tricksters, charismatic people, and even a few poor fools who value honesty. Main match was solid, deathmatch was interesting and strategic, all around good start to the season.

I also really wish someone would make a list of all the random music used throughout each episode, I only recognized Massive Attack and a few of the staples.

Edit: Also yeah, "There's such a thing called human decency" was great.

Lugaloco
Jun 29, 2011

Ice to see you!

Gonna be really interesting to see if Ahyoung will get her revenge after being so blatantly betrayed. I don't know what Kyunghoon was thinking. Sure, he won the round but he's screwed long-term with that hanging over him.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



So thoughts as I watch the episode:

I like the new set. The previous main hall was too busy, though the rooms were fine. Now the main hall looks terrific.

Cool, they fixed the garnet advantage problem with the death matches. The disparity became a real issue last season because of the broadcaster faction. Oh, and the black garnets are a bonus game, not just a dodge death. The cast is catching on to the implications of the shift pretty quickly, though they might be prompted by the crew.

Finding another person to work with and forming a coalition where the two of you change so that you only have one type of fruit does seem to be the best way to walk away with a win, though not the safest way to avoid elimination.

Very strategic playing from this cast initially.

drat, the stickers mean that forming a secret coalition is tougher. And there's my answer to if you can trade to have two of the same.

Oh, the change item is trickier than I thought. I thought it was an exchange, not a literal change. That really alters the dynamics of the game. It makes the closed coalition strategy a lot more dangerous, as the Watermelons seem destined to learn. With that rule, I'd join the Watermelons at the last minute and offer a dollar.

I'm thinking that the large alliance was a really bad idea. It gives the other players a target.

And it looks like both of my previous two predictions were correct.

I'm surprised no one is fleeing the watermelon ship using the change.

And round four is when a player finally makes an aggressive move. Everyone was way too cooperative in this game; I think they were all scared of appearing too cutthroat...

This death match is fascinating. I'm thinking the best strategy is to budget yourself for a rapid five wins. If you're the first player then you have to go double digits and I think playing at the limit of the lamps is best, but it's also obvious. OTOH, to beat you against the limits, the other player will have to overpay on the budget. The real trick is going to be the late game.


busb posted:

and why are we spoilering theorycraft on the game rules when it doesn't spoil any of the results or anything that went on?

Because even what game is being played is a spoiler and because of the nature of the show, people watch at widely different times. It's only polite to cover it up.

MisterZimbu
Mar 13, 2006
I'm hoping that the death match being in a sealed envelope and kept in a safe will come into play somehow later.

Like there's a secret deathmatch envelope hidden somewhere on the set that would offer a huge advantage to one person if they can figure out how to slip it into the safe.

CHiRAL
Mar 29, 2010

Anus.

Lugaloco posted:

Gonna be really interesting to see if Ahyoung will get her revenge after being so blatantly betrayed. I don't know what Kyunghoon was thinking. Sure, he won the round but he's screwed long-term with that hanging over him.

Frankly he did exactly what I was thinking someone should do through the later half of the game. She decided all on her own to put her trust in him and the way she kept repeating it felt really manipulative. If you don't want to put any thought or effort into the game that's your problem, or at least try to hide it a little. She redeemed herself in the death match though. The end of it was kind of a facepalm moment for Juri.

Arcanen
Dec 19, 2005

Was kind of disappointing that no-one on the watermelon team seemed to have really considered a strategy for dealing with someone from the opposing team using the change, like keeping a power do be able to do the same thing right back

In general I don't really like the main matches that rely on betrayals and what not for their surprises. Team based matches in general kind of suck, the best games have been ones where individuals can compete and come up with cool strategies.

Regarding the new garnet-rules for the deathmatch, giving garnets to one another is still allowed right? Then isn't it always in the best interests of the contestants as a whole to agree to give their garnets to other players when it becomes clear they are going to lose, and then get them back afterwards? It's just reducing the pot otherwise.

Random Stranger
Nov 27, 2009



Shakugan posted:

Was kind of disappointing that no-one on the watermelon team seemed to have really considered a strategy for dealing with someone from the opposing team using the change, like keeping a power do be able to do the same thing right back

The issue was that the watermelon coalition was nearly half the players and their opponents were everyone who wasn't. There wasn't an easy target for the watermelon players to attack while watermelons were very easy to break.

Zythrst
May 31, 2011

Time to join a revolution son, its going to be yooge!
Great episode, I think season 3 is already off to a better start then season 2. I hope Hweejong and Dongmin continue to be bro's. I liked that Lawyer Kang stayed true, but that was probably because the watermelons were upfront about what they were doing. As far as Juri in the death match, I think I kind of understand what she was thinking since she could have very well been behind on points and was hoping Ahyoung would punt the round to conserve points, but yeah it was disappointing that we're down to three women already.

Arcanen
Dec 19, 2005

Random Stranger posted:

The issue was that the watermelon coalition was nearly half the players and their opponents were everyone who wasn't. There wasn't an easy target for the watermelon players to attack while watermelons were very easy to break.

It wouldn't be a counter-strategy to win, but one to avoid coming last. So it doesn't matter if there were only other small groups.

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012
The watermelon gang was extremely lovable

qbert
Oct 23, 2003

It's both thrilling and terrifying.

Shakugan posted:

In general I don't really like the main matches that rely on betrayals and what not for their surprises. Team based matches in general kind of suck, the best games have been ones where individuals can compete and come up with cool strategies.

I would say 90% of The Genius had been social interactions and betrayals/teamwork. Individual missions that require only pure skill would get boring, honestly.

Zythrst
May 31, 2011

Time to join a revolution son, its going to be yooge!

qbert posted:

I would say 90% of The Genius had been social interactions and betrayals/teamwork. Individual missions that require only pure skill would get boring, honestly.

Yeah I just hope they keep mixing things up.

SnowWolf
Nov 20, 2005
Only downside of that episode was no Extreme Ways. Awesome main match and deathmatch, already S3 is looking a lot better than S2

Running With Spoons
Oct 26, 2005
Only the spoon knows what is stirring in the pot

Random Stranger posted:

So thoughts as I watch the episode:


I'm thinking that the large alliance was a really bad idea. It gives the other players a target.




When a game devolves to large alliance vs small alliance, the death match usually ends with 1 player from both alliance.
If you're in the large alliance, there's less chance that you're the one chosen for the death match, and you might have more chance to win too, since you have more allies.


If a secret alliance of 3 had been formed with all 6 fruits with the strategy to offer 2 first round and then 1 each and every other round, sure "they" would've won.
However, only 2 people of that alliance would've been safe, the 3rd one was almost 100% going to the death match with the loser.

qbert
Oct 23, 2003

It's both thrilling and terrifying.

Running With Spoons posted:


If a secret alliance of 3 had been formed with all 6 fruits with the strategy to offer 2 first round and then 1 each and every other round, sure "they" would've won.
However, only 2 people of that alliance would've been safe, the 3rd one was almost 100% going to the death match with the loser.


I thought that if multiple people tied for first place, they all would have received a token of immunity?

Running With Spoons
Oct 26, 2005
Only the spoon knows what is stirring in the pot

qbert posted:

I thought that if multiple people tied for first place, they all would have received a token of immunity?



It's impossible to make all 3 have the exact same amount, it depends on if the other players choose 1 or not.

MrBlarney
Nov 8, 2009
I approve of the new Season 3 so far. Loved the heavy game theory aspect of both the main match and death match. It's not surprising that there were only three garnets won from the main match, it was quite clever of the show to set up the garnet tiers the way they did, to encourage the knife edge between cooperation and defection. And the special tools inserted into the game were great for shaking up the game from being a straight Prisoners' Dilemma situation.

The death match also has a lot of depth for mindgames, considering the granularity of information provided. Since 99 points provides an average of 11 to allocate in each round, small changes in allocation can have huge impacts in information distributed. Very surprised to see so many rounds get decided on a single point, it made the game quite suspenseful. I've always been a fan of Colonel Blotto games, and the show put together a great sequential version of the problem.

Also, looking at the preview for next week: It looks like the cast might be playing some sort of 12-player version of The Resistance: Avalon? I wonder how they'll be able to change up the rules to make it work for that many players.

qbert
Oct 23, 2003

It's both thrilling and terrifying.
Nevermind, realized I was wrong.

qbert
Oct 23, 2003

It's both thrilling and terrifying.

Running With Spoons posted:


It's impossible to make all 3 have the exact same amount, it depends on if the other players choose 1 or not.


One player has 2 4-person fruits, the other two players have 1 5-person fruit and 1 4-person fruit. Round 1, the player with 2 4-person fruits bids $3 each. He ends up with $24. The other two bid $4 on their 5-person fruits, and $1 on their 4-person fruit. They both end up with $24 each.

For rounds 2, 3, 4, everyone bids $1. Boom, all 3 end up in 1st place.

If one person in the 3-person alliance has both 5-person fruits, he/she will bid $2 and $2 instead in round 1, while the others bid $3 and $2.

Of course, this plan only works if they can deceive everyone else for Round 1 and get the others to all bid $5 like what happened on the show.

Running With Spoons
Oct 26, 2005
Only the spoon knows what is stirring in the pot

qbert posted:

One player has 2 4-person fruits, the other two players have 1 5-person fruit and 1 4-person fruit. Round 1, the player with 2 4-person fruits bids $3 each. He ends up with $24. The other two bid $4 on their 5-person fruits, and $1 on their 4-person fruit. They both end up with $24 each.

For rounds 2, 3, 4, everyone bids $1. Boom, all 3 end up in 1st place.

If one person in the 3-person alliance has both 5-person fruits, he/she will bid $2 and $2 instead in round 1, while the others bid $3 and $2.

Of course, this plan only works if they can deceive everyone else for Round 1 and get the others to all bid $5 like what happened on the show.



If you can convince 1 of the players to not bid 1 for a single round, it doesn't work.
Or convince the nine others to bid 2 in the 2nd round.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe
Extreme ways are not back again.

SebastianK
Dec 4, 2011

Congratulations

Suspicious Dish posted:

Extreme ways are not back again.

Extreme places we all did know :(

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012
Maybe they're saving it

sharktamer
Oct 30, 2011

Shark tamer ridiculous
Liking the new cast, we've got some interesting characters in there. Hweejong is as awesome as we all expected. It's a shame there's so many passive people though, I wanna see less people just floating around playing chummy and more backstabbing!

busb
Mar 19, 2009

Thorgie
White Lies made up for it a bit, as well as Massive Attack.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012
I like that this season is starting from a more trusting place. More satisfying when everything falls apart.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply