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Bloodborne
Sep 24, 2008

Excellent, congrats and good luck.

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crunk dork
Jan 15, 2006

high six posted:

HUrray. I got an actual IT job. Help desk, yeah, but it is certainly better than delivering pizzas. Gonna start the Monday after next. At least this time I didn't rip the rear end of my pants at the interview.

Kinda nervous, too, since this will be my first "adult" job.

Congrats man! Makes me hopeful and want to try twice as hard to look for a similar position for myself. No reason to be too nervous, obviously they like you enough to bring you on board! :)

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

high six posted:

HUrray. I got an actual IT job. Help desk, yeah, but it is certainly better than delivering pizzas. Gonna start the Monday after next. At least this time I didn't rip the rear end of my pants at the interview.

Kinda nervous, too, since this will be my first "adult" job.
1) spelling and capitalization is important, so watch it (see your first word)
2) I've wanted an opportunity to post this before, and now I have it. There are 4 phases to IT team building.
a) form
b) storm
c) conform
d) perform

just remember your team in now in phase a), and remind them of the fact when there are inevitably some personality issues early on.

Mrit
Sep 26, 2007

by exmarx
Grimey Drawer

mayodreams posted:

I've done two O365 tenancies with ADFS here and it is really not hard to do.

Side point/rant:

I've decided I'm tired of this company's approach to running infrastructure into the ground, and I'm looking elsewhere.

I get a message from an internal recruiter for a place and job that looks really good. I respond back and we arrange an interview for this morning, and he/she asked that I complete the 'candidate cover sheet' with some bullshit questions like '3 things that make you tick' and my overall GPA. I gave an N/A for current compensation and 'negotiable' for desired range. She/he responds back that I need to provide the the compensation answers, so I gave a range that I am looking for, and declined to give my current pay.

I get a response that the interview is cancelled and 'good luck with my search'.

I was furious because I took time off to have an interview in quiet (I work in a cube farm so it is impossible for me to do this at the office) and I get blown off? I wrote the following reponse:


I know it is snarky and angry, but what utter and complete bullshit.

Good for you. Hopefully your response makes that guy think twice before harasing potential employees. Its hard enough to go through the interview process without giving out past/current salary details.

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
Had an interview at an MSP last week that went awesome, the recruiter said they had nothing but great things to say about me, and I really liked that not only did the interview go WAY longer than we planned, but they took time to explain some answers I bombed. I've been a NE most of my career, the job title is NE but the job sounds like it's going to be massive breadth and depth, especially on the Windows / VMWare side. This one was with a couple of their lead engineers, I have a follow-up Monday with 10 of their 15 senior / leads. Is there any hope to cramming before then? I've already read over the stuff I missed (some VMWare stuff that I've never seen like max LVM / block size) because it is a genuinely interesting job and field.

Regardless, I really hope I get this one, both of the guys interviewing me were sharp as hell and even caught me off on some Cisco stuff despite both being professed systems guys. Especially since the fallbacks are a NOC position and a network installer for a wide upgrade process.

hackedaccount
Sep 28, 2009

mayodreams posted:

She/he responds back that I need to provide the the compensation answers, so I gave a range that I am looking for, and declined to give my current pay.

I get a response that the interview is cancelled and 'good luck with my search'.

I'm a Linux guy with a LOT of experience so YMMV on this one: During my current job search (W2 contract and full time) I have always declined and nobody has given me any poo poo. Here's how I do it and if they persist move to the next one:

1) I don't disclose that, sorry.

2) Technologies, responsibilities, perks, commute, bonuses, culture, and other things vary from job to job. This is a new job and everything will be different.

3) What I got paid in the past has no bearing on what is a fair wage at my next position.

4) To be candid I don't give that out because it's only used as a bargaining chip against me. This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

Also, if you're doing W2 contract, never forget that most companies spam out positions to tons of different contract houses so if one is being an rear end in a top hat just find another one.

Jedi425
Dec 6, 2002

THOU ART THEE ART THOU STICK YOUR HAND IN THE TV DO IT DO IT DO IT

Pudgygiant posted:

Had an interview at an MSP last week that went awesome, the recruiter said they had nothing but great things to say about me, and I really liked that not only did the interview go WAY longer than we planned, but they took time to explain some answers I bombed. I've been a NE most of my career, the job title is NE but the job sounds like it's going to be massive breadth and depth, especially on the Windows / VMWare side. This one was with a couple of their lead engineers, I have a follow-up Monday with 10 of their 15 senior / leads. Is there any hope to cramming before then? I've already read over the stuff I missed (some VMWare stuff that I've never seen like max LVM / block size) because it is a genuinely interesting job and field.

Regardless, I really hope I get this one, both of the guys interviewing me were sharp as hell and even caught me off on some Cisco stuff despite both being professed systems guys. Especially since the fallbacks are a NOC position and a network installer for a wide upgrade process.

If they took the time to discuss things you missed on the first interview, definitely bone up on those things. I know when I am interviewing a potential hire to our team (we do group interviews at my workplace, usually the lead and a couple of the regular employees sit in), the person who did the phone screen will mention topics the interviewee was weak on over the phone. I like to take that opportunity to see if the person we're looking at is smart enough to have learned anything, and to have taken the chance to do so. I know when I got interviewed here for my Networking job they went out of their way to point out I was weak on DNS (I knew basically how it worked, but nothing about actually administrating it), so I bought the latest copy of DNS and BIND and boned up a bit. Even if I hadn't gotten the job (I did), at least I learned something new. :v:

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend

hackedaccount posted:

I'm a Linux guy with a LOT of experience so YMMV on this one: During my current job search (W2 contract and full time) I have always declined and nobody has given me any poo poo. Here's how I do it and if they persist move to the next one:

1) I don't disclose that, sorry.

2) Technologies, responsibilities, perks, commute, bonuses, culture, and other things vary from job to job. This is a new job and everything will be different.

3) What I got paid in the past has no bearing on what is a fair wage at my next position.

4) To be candid I don't give that out because it's only used as a bargaining chip against me. This ain't my first time at the rodeo.

Also, if you're doing W2 contract, never forget that most companies spam out positions to tons of different contract houses so if one is being an rear end in a top hat just find another one.

That is really solid strategy.

As I was discussing this with friends this weekend, I realized that you can just lie about what you make now. They can't verify that if they call your current/past employers anyway.

Although, there was a major brick and mortar retailer I interviewed with last year that asked for my W2's from the last year to prove what I made in the past. You can imagine how well that went.

How is that type of practice not illegal? You can't ask questions about being married, number of kids, religion, but GIVE ME ALL OF YOUR COMPENSATION HISTORY WITH FEDERAL DOCUMENTATION seems ridiculous.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
What? You can totally ask questions about bring married and number of kids.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend

psydude posted:

What? You can totally ask questions about bring married and number of kids.

Nope.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/article/cb-3380-interview-tips-11-common-interview-questions-that-are-actually-illegal/

careerbuilder posted:

1. Have you ever been arrested?
An employer can't legally ask you about your arrest record, but they can ask if you've ever been convicted of a crime. Depending on the state, a conviction record shouldn't automatically disqualify you for employment unless it substantially relates to your job. For example, if you've been convicted of statutory rape and you're applying for a teaching position, you will probably not get the job.

2. Are you married?
Although the interviewer may ask you this question to see how much time you'd be able to commit to your job, it's illegal because it reveals your marital status and can also reveal your sexual orientation.

3. What religious holidays do you practice?
Employers may want to ask you this to see if your lifestyle interferes with work schedules, but this question reveals your religion and that's illegal. They can ask you if you're available to work on Sundays.

4. Do you have children?
It is unlawful to deny someone employment if they have children or if they are planning on having children in the future. If the employer wants to find out how committed you will be to your job, they should ask questions about your work. For example, "What hours can you work?" or "Do you have responsibilities other than work that will interfere with specific job requirements such as traveling?"

5. What country are you from?
If you have an accent, this may seem like an innocent question, but it's illegal because it involves your national origin. Employers can't legally inquire about your nationality, but they can ask if you're authorized to work in a certain country.

6. Is English your first language?
It's not the employers' lawful right to know whether a language is your first language. In order to find out language proficiency, employers can ask you what other languages you read, speak or write fluently.

7. Do you have any outstanding debt?
Employers must have permission before asking about your credit history. Similar to a criminal background history, they can't disqualify you from employment unless it directly affects your ability to perform the position you're interviewing for. Furthermore, they can't ask you how well you balance your personal finances or inquire about you owning property.

8. Do you socially drink?
Employers cannot ask about your drinking habits, because it violates the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. For example, if you're a recovering alcoholic, treatment of alcoholism is protected under this act, and you don't have to disclose any disability information before landing an official job offer.

9. When was the last time you used illegal drugs?
It's illegal for employers to ask you about past drug addiction, but they can ask you if you're currently using illegal drugs. A person who is currently using drugs is not protected under ADA. For example, an employer may ask you: "Do you currently use illegal drugs? What illegal drugs have you used in the past six months?"

10. How long have you been working?
This question allows employers to guess your age, which is unlawful. Similarly, they can't ask you what year you graduated from high school or college or even your birthday. However, they can ask you how long you've been working in a certain industry.

11. What type of discharge did you receive in the military?
This is not appropriate for the interviewer to ask you, but they can ask what type of education, training or work experience you've received while in the military.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




psydude posted:

What? You can totally ask questions about bring married and number of kids.

That would be illegal to ask in Canada. They also cannot ask you things like:

-your age
-how long have you been in the country/where are you from (they can only legally ask "are you allowed to work in Canada")
-is that your maiden name, etc
-anything health related

There's a huge list!

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD
A good interviewer will get you to volunteer that info

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up

go3 posted:

A good interviewer will get you to volunteer that info

"Tell me about what you do outside of work" gets em every time.

I have conversations with people all the time where we discuss kids/marriage status etc. My interviews are pretty informal discussions though.

And maybe I'm a little different even though I can potentially be a direct employer, but if someone refuses to discuss salary with me in a face to face meeting, I probably won't work with them because it's a sign they are going to be difficult to work with. I actually get paid more if I get you more, so not only is it in my best interests but it's a key part of having that honest conversation about where you are now and what's going to make a job change make sense for you and your situation.

I acknowledge though, that I probably wouldn't recommend giving up salary or other personal details without building a level of trust first.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




go3 posted:

A good interviewer will get you to volunteer that info

Uh, what? It's illegal to discriminate or base employment offers on any of those things, so sneakily getting an interviewee to admit that information could actually get the company in legal trouble or a human rights complaint. A good interviewer would never do that, and actually has to take care to NOT do that. Maybe America is different I guess.

Sickening
Jul 16, 2007

Black summer was the best summer.

Dark Helmut posted:

"Tell me about what you do outside of work" gets em every time.

I have conversations with people all the time where we discuss kids/marriage status etc. My interviews are pretty informal discussions though.

And maybe I'm a little different even though I can potentially be a direct employer, but if someone refuses to discuss salary with me in a face to face meeting, I probably won't work with them because it's a sign they are going to be difficult to work with. I actually get paid more if I get you more, so not only is it in my best interests but it's a key part of having that honest conversation about where you are now and what's going to make a job change make sense for you and your situation.

I acknowledge though, that I probably wouldn't recommend giving up salary or other personal details without building a level of trust first.

While I am sure you make more when the employee gets more it still doesn't change the fact that your first priority is to get the employee into a range where the employer is going to easily accept. Your goals are just not totally in line with the employee.

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


hackedaccount posted:

During my current job search (W2 contract and full time) I have always declined and nobody has given me any poo poo. Here's how I do it and if they persist move to the next one:

One of my previous gigs asked for 3 paystubs from my last 3 jobs - 9 total. I asked, I was told that it was for "employee verification". I was inexperienced and caved (still got the salary I wanted) but that said - not that I would ever do this - what's stopping me from just manipulating my paystub? I'm pretty confident that your previous employer won't give out salary info, it's not like they would ever know.

So, why even bother?

In other news, HP is splitting and I can't even believe this is eliminating 50,000+ employees. :smith:

Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Oct 6, 2014

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Tab8715 posted:

One of my previous gigs asked for 3 paystubs from my last 3 jobs - 9 total. I asked, I was told that it was for "employee verification". I was inexperienced and caved (still got the salary I wanted) but that said - not that I would ever do this - what's stopping me from just manipulating my paystub? I'm pretty confident that your previous employer won't give out salary info, it's not like they would ever know.

In other news, HP is splitting and I can't even believe this is eliminating 50,000+ employees. :smith:

Just blank out anything but your name and the employer's name before you send it.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD

Tab8715 posted:

In other news, HP is splitting and I can't even believe this is eliminating 50,000+ employees. :smith:

Gotta make them stockholders happy.

CLAM DOWN posted:

Uh, what? It's illegal to discriminate or base employment offers on any of those things, so sneakily getting an interviewee to admit that information could actually get the company in legal trouble or a human rights complaint. A good interviewer would never do that, and actually has to take care to NOT do that. Maybe America is different I guess.

:allears:

three
Aug 9, 2007

i fantasize about ndamukong suh licking my doodoo hole

Sickening posted:

While I am sure you make more when the employee gets more it still doesn't change the fact that your first priority is to get the employee into a range where the employer is going to easily accept. Your goals are just not totally in line with the employee.

Freakonomics covered this with Realtors, which may be a good comparison. Realtors typically sell their homes for 3% more than they sell others. Yes, they get more if they sell yours for more, but it takes time and it probably just isn't worth the hassle for them.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




News says 5000 jobs cut, not 50000, there's a typo somewhere!

Do you not believe me or something?

Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done


CLAM DOWN posted:

News says 5000 jobs cut, not 50000, there's a typo somewhere!

http://online.wsj.com/articles/hewlett-packard-to-split-into-two-companies-1412592132

quote:

Separately, H-P also boosted Monday the number of expected layoffs it has planned by 5,000 to 55,000, after identifying “incremental opportunities for reductions.” H-P had previously projected its job cuts to be between 45,000 and 50,000, and it already has shed 36,000 employees under the restructuring program as of the end of the most recent quarter.
:airquote:incremental:airquote: as if that makes it sound better.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
Interesting. I knew that making decisions based upon marital status/kids was illegal, but I didn't know it was illegal to ask about.

CLAM DOWN posted:

Uh, what? It's illegal to discriminate or base employment offers on any of those things, so sneakily getting an interviewee to admit that information could actually get the company in legal trouble or a human rights complaint. A good interviewer would never do that, and actually has to take care to NOT do that. Maybe America is different I guess.

I like this dream world you constantly bring up where you somehow think everyone follows the rules and doesn't make decisions based upon their own prejudices and moral code.

It's obviously illegal to discriminate based upon X, but good luck ever proving it, especially when you volunteered the information.

psydude fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 6, 2014

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Especially, if your employer is headquartered is in a work-at-will state.

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




psydude posted:

I like this dream world you constantly bring up where you somehow think everyone follows the rules and doesn't make decisions based upon their own prejudices and moral code.

It's obviously illegal to discriminate based upon X, but good luck ever proving it, especially when you volunteered the information.

It's not a dream world, it's actually how things are here, I'm sorry you don't agree with it though. I "keep bringing it up" with a mention once a month or so when a discussion like this happens because this thread is very America-centric, and believe it or not, things are different elsewhere in the world and not everyone here is an American.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.

CLAM DOWN posted:

It's not a dream world, it's actually how things are here, I'm sorry you don't agree with it though. I "keep bringing it up" with a mention once a month or so when a discussion like this happens because this thread is very America-centric, and believe it or not, things are different elsewhere in the world and not everyone here is an American.

LOL if you think companies in other countries are somehow more saintly than American companies.

e: The bottom line is that organizations will pretty much always take advantage of you or anyone else to the maximum extent they can without being overt. Some countries may do a better job of forcing transparency to this end, but rest assured that it still happens.

psydude fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Oct 6, 2014

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007




psydude posted:

LOL if you think companies in other countries are somehow more saintly than American companies.

I never said that, I'm not sure where you got that from. Are you familiar with labour and job-related human rights laws in other countries? That's what I'm referring to.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

CLAM DOWN posted:

I never said that, I'm not sure where you got that from. Are you familiar with labour and job-related human rights laws in other countries? That's what I'm referring to.

Note that this thread often gives a misleading idea of labor rights and disputes in the US that is only valid for exempt workers, contract workers, or desperately poor people held out as examples.

Europe has stronger protections (in general), but the US is not the shithole it's presented as

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up

Sickening posted:

While I am sure you make more when the employee gets more it still doesn't change the fact that your first priority is to get the employee into a range where the employer is going to easily accept. Your goals are just not totally in line with the employee.

Like a mechanic diagnosing your car, I am in a position where people trust me to represent them and do what's best for them, and not gouge them just because I find a way.

So when I interview people, I typically am interviewing them proactively and not just for one specific position, so the salary has to be discussed objectively.

I ask for two numbers that I use to help qualify jobs for you:

1. What is the range you are targeting, i.e. how much do you feel you should be making in this market?
2. If I have a position that is ideal in every other way, what is the salary/hourly number I don't call you below?

Again, if we are having a transparent discussion about what is a good fit for you, salary is just another factor like commute time, healthcare, company size, etc. It's just a much more grey area than the others.

Just throwing out there that getting all bent about discussing salary doesn't always help you and can hurt you, unless you have a skill set that is really(really, really) in demand.

Dark Helmut fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 6, 2014

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

psydude posted:

Interesting. I knew that making decisions based upon marital status/kids was illegal, but I didn't know it was illegal to ask about.
The law presumes that anything you ask about in an interview is for the purposes of making a decision on whether to hire a candidate, so conduct your interviews appropriately.

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD
The law has you covered guy don't worry about it!

air-
Sep 24, 2007

Who will win the greatest battle of them all?

CLAM DOWN posted:

I never said that, I'm not sure where you got that from. Are you familiar with labour and job-related human rights laws in other countries? That's what I'm referring to.

Things aren't as bad as they sound in the US, but yes, Europe generally does better at protecting their workers as well as having transparency for these sorts of things.

I'm probably not the only one with the mindset that you're dealing with a company, it has no soul/feelings/remorse and certainly doesn't give a gently caress about what's best for you or doing the "right thing".

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


I don't think, at least I am not, that we disagree with progressive labor laws we're just stating that in US its much more favored towards the employer and its important to be aware.

Personally, I would love to see more Scandinavian democratic-socialist government that has high taxes, strict regulations on corporations and a enormous social safety but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
Yikes, my boss asked me to make a website for ordering dunkin donuts because we go so often with such a high volume of people. 2 hours configuring the html5 app + php pages to make mysql calls. Weird.

Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done


Sepist posted:

Yikes, my boss asked me to make a website for ordering dunkin donuts because we go so often with such a high volume of people. 2 hours configuring the html5 app + php pages to make mysql calls. Weird.



Wow, do you write code for a living or did some rear end in a top hat say "Hey, pen and paper is hard, and Sepist knows computers, so..."?

Sepist
Dec 26, 2005

FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS

Gravy Boat 2k
No I'm a network engineer but everyone knows I know how to code because I have made a few mobile games and another work relevant app for them. No one put a gun to my head to make it, we're just in a project lull and we always joke that this should be a thing so I whipped it together

Wizard of the Deep
Sep 25, 2005

Another productive workday

Sepist posted:

No I'm a network engineer but everyone knows I know how to code because I have made a few mobile games and another work relevant app for them. No one put a gun to my head to make it, we're just in a project lull and we always joke that this should be a thing so I whipped it together

You realize you're going to have to support this Mission Critical Application until the day you quit now, right? In five years, after you've moved on, and Dunkin Donuts changes their website, someone's going to come into the 2019 version of this thread and bitch about you.

And how nobody told them they could get coffee :(

e: should have done it in Access.

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend

Wizard of the Deep posted:

You realize you're going to have to support this Mission Critical Application until the day you quit now, right? In five years, after you've moved on, and Dunkin Donuts changes their website, someone's going to come into the 2019 version of this thread and bitch about you.

And how nobody told them they could get coffee :(

e: should have done it in Access.

The correct answer to make future people hate you the most.

whaam
Mar 18, 2008
As a general infrastructure guy getting a lot deeper into networking lately, all this doomsaying about SDN is starting to worry me a bit. I'm a bit late to the show learning the more advanced routing and switching concepts and applying them to my company (who is in the stone age in the networking side of things)

I actually have started enjoying the networking stuff so much that I was thinking of dropping the vmware and storage and start specializing. Is this a bad move? I'm in an area with mostly SMB so I wouldn't want to get too silo'd. I've been in the field for over 10 years so have a pretty wide base of knowledge: network, security, linux, vmware, storage. Is it dumb to dive deep into networking with SDN potentially changing things? Or is it better to focus on networking and virtualization together to be more versatile for the changing environment?

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer
software defined networking still requires networking knowledge.

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ADBOT LOVES YOU

whaam
Mar 18, 2008

adorai posted:

software defined networking still requires networking knowledge.

Yes of course, but if you can automate even a modest number of network engineers out of jobs by introducing efficiencies then there will be fewer jobs to go around.

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