Meldonox posted:

I didn't quite see what I'm looking for described in this thread, but I apologize if I've missed something. I've always thought alternate history is pretty cool in general, but most of it doesn't quite appeal to me. Is there much out there that's less of an alternate history genre fiction novel and more of a data-driven speculative history textbook? I'd love to read something written with plausibility and probability in mind, even if it's a little dry.

Metal Loaf posted:

I was keen on Timeline-191 when I was in school, but by the time I'd read them through to the end I realised that a) they weren't really very well-written and b) they were increasingly coming across as though Turtledove had gone through a WWII history book and done a Ctrl+F and Replace to reset the Eastern front in North America.

That being said, it is at least better than Stars and Stripes Forever by Harry Harrison (among other things, the Union and the Confederates instantly make peace to team up against the British, then manage to evade the Royal Navy to mount a land invasion of the British Isles, abolish the monarchy and "introduce democracy" to the benighted British serfdom) and 1862 by Robert Conroy (the USS Monitor can defeat the entire Royal Navy by shooting the rudders off its ironclads, and Ulysses S. Grant can guarantee victory simply by being present on the battlefield).

I enjoy some of the timelines I've read on alternatehistory.com, though my favourite is actually one which parodies The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, except with fictional characters as British prime ministers (so you get Harry Perkins overthrown and replaced by Francis Urquhart, who himself resigns in favour of his protégé, Alan B'Stard).

Ron Roenicke posted:

Robert Cowley's edited a couple of books that might be more what you're looking for. What If? is primarily focused on military history, but the second volume is a little more expansive. He also has an American-centric book, but I haven't read it. They might not be exactly what you're looking for (I think they're mostly just speculation with a little bit of data to back it up, but I haven't read them in a while), but they're not genre fiction either. I would say they're probably still more pop-alternative history, but it's more analytic than Turtledove.

Meldonox posted:

I didn't quite see what I'm looking for described in this thread, but I apologize if I've missed something. I've always thought alternate history is pretty cool in general, but most of it doesn't quite appeal to me. Is there much out there that's less of an alternate history genre fiction novel and more of a data-driven speculative history textbook? I'd love to read something written with plausibility and probability in mind, even if it's a little dry.

Reveilled posted:

Others have suggested a few non-fiction works that speculate on possible alternative histories, I'd like to suggest a fictional alternative history written as an actual history textbook (the author, Robert Sobel was himself a professor of history and wrote a lot of non-fiction history). For Want of a Nail is a history textbook from a universe in which the British won the American Revolutionary War. The whole thing reads like an actual high-level overview of the political history of the United States of Mexico and the Confederation of North America, complete with full and detailed citations and loads of tables detailing things like election results and GDP. If not for the cover, it could as well be a real non-fiction work from another universe. It is dry as gently caress, but that hasn't stopped me reading it multiple times, something I very rarely do with even my favourite books.

Metal Loaf posted:

That being said, it is at least better than Stars and Stripes Forever by Harry Harrison (among other things, the Union and the Confederates instantly make peace to team up against the British, then manage to evade the Royal Navy to mount a land invasion of the British Isles, abolish the monarchy and "introduce democracy" to the benighted British serfdom) and 1862 by Robert Conroy (the USS Monitor can defeat the entire Royal Navy by shooting the rudders off its ironclads, and Ulysses S. Grant can guarantee victory simply by being present on the battlefield).

sbaldrick posted:

These two might be the single worst althistory books ever written, as they both forget one very important thing about the early ironclad ships, the fact they could cross open ocean any any point in their history.

quote:

... In 1917, the Kaiser abdicates in favor of his son, who creates "Kastrup", which is basically the SS only for Imperial Germany. Over the coming two years, they shoot socialist workers left and right, beat down strikes, and generally make sure that any attempt of a socialist/democratic revolution in Germany drowns in its own blood. Because that works so well, Germany starts a spring offensive in 1919 (Home Fleet has lost 90% of its strength in a last grand battle with the High Seas Fleet, which it annihilated), breaking through the lines with new armored fomations. By April, France has surrendered, monarchy is restored, with Louis I sweaing fealty to the Kaiser. In July, Italy surrenders. Austro-Hungary is merged with the Reich in November.

In 1921 the Kaiserreich lands 800,000 men in Egypt, beginning the conquest of the whole of British Africa, which is finalized in 1924. In 1926 the Nordic League is founded, soon encompassing basically the whole of northern and central Europe under Germany's leadership. The year 1941 sees the detonation of the first nuclear bomb in German-Lybia.

1949. Well, the story starts with a German bomber squadron sent out from Iceland to destroy the American nuclear facilities in California (because only Germany can be trusted with nuclear weapons) while a German moon mission is underway. Each of their Horten B1s can carry 50 tons of bombs, and the are to drop 450 tons of cluster bombs on the Silverlake installations. Naturally, they succeed, but witness that almost at the same time someone firebombs the nearby town of Rosamond, killing most of the 10,000 inhabitants. One of the German bombers gets shot down, the crew captured.

Chestbeating macho-monarchists that they are, the Kastrup and the Reich come up with an ingenious plan: bomb the crap out of the base the prisoners are held, land paratroopers there to break them free, then return to Germany. Naturally, they succeed. Again.

Meanwhile, the fleet of the Nodric League (Germany & its clients) is in international waters to pick up the returning moon capsule (whose retro-thrusters haven't fired). But the Soviet fleet appears on the scene. prompting the Germans to launch a first strike lest the Reds get too close to their retrieval mission. Naturally, they succeed. Again. Spectacularly, without even losing a ship of their own.

Logically, the Russians don't take too kindly to such things and amass their forces along the border, despite German warning that should they commence hostilities, they would nuke the troops concentrations.

Alas, the Germans want no war, and the Kaiser hopes a demonstration of their new weapons system will deter the Russians: their new land cruiser. Guys, I know this all sounds as if I'm making this up as I write, but I'm not. The LK-1 land cruiser is a nuclear-powered vehicle, 45 meters long, seveteen wide and thirteen high. It's armed with a dual 38cm turret, a single 12.8cm turret, 8 dual 8cm AA guns, "additional secret systems for air defense" and 12 machine guns against infantry. And yeah, it weighs 2,200 tons and can drive under water...

The Germans also are the only ones with a nuclear deterrent,... but the German deterrent fails because the son of a worker shot in the 1918 riots becomes part of the failsafe program and creates a backdoor in the German nuclear authorization program that deactivates all warheads on his command.

The UK, the USA and the USSR all declare war against the Kaiserreich. 6 million men of the Red Army with 30,000 tanks cross the eastern border (and into Finnland). The British use 1,800 "Lancaster" bombers to annihilate the German nuclear center in the Lybian desert (they succeed, but lose *all* their bombers). It seems all is lost.

The novel ends with the leader of Kastrup driving to a secret base where he is only allowed entrance after a genetic sample is taken and tested to prove his identity...

Almost everybody of the German protagonists - and I mean everybody - is a member of the nobility. I swear, the whole cast is made up of "von XYZ"s. Then there's the whole issue of Nordic mythology and Nordic ethnic solidarity whoch really wasn't a thing in the Kaiserreich at all. All those military operations have names like "Wiking"; the airbase on Iceland is called Midgard, and so on.

Ah, but there's more! Just when you thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous, Kaiserfront 01 keeps on giving, and it gives us...Aliens! Because, as we learn through flashbacks, in 1925, after the Germans had conquered the whole African colonial Empire, the British were dug in with 20,000 men (!) in a fort in the Sudanese desert. So Kastrup takes the fort in a combined glider & tank assault with a force of less than 2,000 men, and beneath the fort, in a hall "measuring at least 4x10 kilometers" the British have been studying Alien spaceships

Nckdictator posted:

Did someone say "Nazi apologia"

http://warreview.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-kaiserfront-01-die-schwarze.html

ArchangeI posted:

The whole thing is a giant parody. The author is called Heinrich von Stahl for Christ's sake.

quote:

The invasion of Britain enters its decisive stage. The armies of the Nordic federal race against London, but the city proves to be a breakwater. Only the landed in northern England 7th Scandinavian Kastrup Panzer Army are after heavy fighting with the hope of an early breakthrough. The British government is to be installed for safety to Belfast - a project which is not hidden the Kastrup. It acts immediately and sends one of their best commanders in use. The Hunt for Churchill begins ...

The CFR, startled by the military successes of the Nordic Federation, plans the coup-like elimination of Kastrup units within the organization. The Kastrup recognizes the danger and initiates a preemptive strike against the Americans - but the CFR is faster and brings parts of the alien technology under its sole control ...

quote:

Even as the battle for England heading its height, the German army on the Eastern Front takes the offensive in the spring of 1950. Three wedges attack launched against Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. But at Stalingrad the German troops take on a numerically far superior and by the Americans very well equipped Red Army.

At the same time, a decision is looming in the confrontation between the Kastrup and the CFR. It is no less at stake than control of the alien technology that will allow the winner to determine the outcome of the Second World War.

In Chile presents Edward Mandell House, President of the CFR, Field Marshal von Thanks to a trap rock, which is to the German commander's undoing ...

quote:

The Battle of Britain seems to have decided in favor of the Nordic Federation. The Allies are trying to evacuate their troops in a gigantic operation from Liverpool. Marshal Dutraux sees his battle-weary armored spearheads unable to prevent the evacuation action and will give the stop command. But Kaiser Friedrich puts everything on one card: It assigns the unchecked rise in Liverpool, to cut hundreds of thousands of Britons and Americans, and so to end the war in the west quickly. Here Friedrich risk that its underserved armored formations could be wiped out ...

I work on Jupiter's moon Callisto: During the Battle of Britain enters its decisive phase, the Kastrup attacks the penultimate and most important base of the CFR to. The space landing battalion under Major Rohwedder to two submarines dive away undetected under the eternal ice of the moon and take the work on the bottom of the ocean in Callisto-coup. But the coincidence is the CFR to help ...

Regardless of the outcome of the fights begin the war crimes trials of London. The indictment against Stalin, Churchill and their followers are: planning and implementation of aggressive war and crimes against humanity.

quote:

In November 1952, the cold war between the USA and the Nordic Covenant is nothing but a giant deception to go unnoticed provide resources to combat the soon arriving on Earth Vegalier of the public to continue. In reality, both the United States and in Siberia apparently still fighting Soviets are vassals of the German Emperor.
The only not yet definitively defeated by the imperial forces military power in the solar system is the CFR, musing under its president Edward Mandell House on revenge for the many defeats that were taught to him by the Kastrup. In the last remaining CFR base on Saturn's moon Titan is maturing a diabolical plan to shake the Nordic Federation in its foundations ...

Tomn posted:

So, wait, while the Allies are attempting to evacuate Britain, the Germans are landing goddamn stormtroopers and space submarines on Callisto?

Earwicker posted:

Does't that just mean steel? Why would that necessarily mean it's parody? Granted I didn't look too far into the books but I can certainly imagine some fantasist nut calling himself "Heinrich of Steel" and meaning it.

ArchangeI posted:

Heinrich von Stahl is the kind of name people with two highschool semesters of German give the main villain in their lovely novel. I refuse to believe that a German native would call himself that unironically while still being able to form a coherent sentence, much less write a novel (no matter how insane).

ArchangeI posted:

I refuse to believe that a German native would call himself that unironically while still being able to form a coherent sentence, much less write a novel (no matter how insane).

Metal Loaf posted:

I imagine if things had turned out differently, Josef Dzhugashvili would've ended up writing alternate history books under a steel-related pseudonym.

quote:

The Red Napoleon was written in 1929 by Chicago Tribune war correspondent Floyd Gibbons, whose fictional alter ego is also the book's protagonist. A journalistic pioneer, Gibbons' nonfiction reporting has been the subject of glowing hagiographies, most of which omit mention of the fictional race war he spent 470 pages chronicling.

Despite a few clumsy stabs at political relevance, Red Dawn is a melodrama using an invasion as a backdrop. In contrast, The Red Napoleon is a book about an invasion, with a flimsy narrative overlay to keep the geopolitics from becoming too oppressive.

Real-life figures populate the pages, from American icons (and Gibbons contemporaries) Herbert Hoover and Douglas MacArthur, to a host of foreign political luminaries, most of whom meet with bad ends.

All this mayhem begins and ends with one Karakhan of Kazan, the son of a Cossack father and a Mongol woman, who rises to become a top military leader of the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. When Stalin is mysteriously assassinated in 1932, in Karakhan's presence, he uses his military influence to take control of the country.

One of the first things Karakhan does as the new Soviet leader is marry and impregnate an American leftist radical from New York. You see, Karakhan has a thing for white women -- an ideological thing. He believes the answer to historical white hegemony is miscegenation, miscegenation, and more miscegenation. Or as Gibbons puts it in the first page of the book:

"[Karakhan's] defiant pride in his coloured skin, struggling against an instinctive inferiority complex originating from impacts with white dominance, fired him with the ambition to fuse all races -- white, yellow, black, brown and red -- into one human race, the only one he acknowledged."

Karakhan sweeps through Europe, killing Mussolini and pre-empting Hitler. The fictional Winston Churchill -- who pre-dates the "never surrender" days -- abruptly resigns after an uprising of Reds and leftists call a general strike, setting the stage for a British surrender. He conquers Australia, where he asserts himself by massacring six million whites. (Wait, how many? As if this book wasn't creepy enough.)

In the United States, Gibbons installs as president Alfred E. Smith, who ran on the Democratic ticket in real life during the 1928 election, just before The Red Napoleon was published. Needless to say, Smith's liberal policies join forces with misguided pacifists and a Red fifth column to leave America weakened and vulnerable to the coming storm. But Gibbons gives Smith credit for eventually stepping up and making the tough calls when the Communist army arrives in America. (After all, he's still a white guy.)

As Karakhan's multiracial army mounts its land invasion -- under a rainbow flag, no less, to symbolize its diversity -- the East and West Coasts take a pounding. Washington, D.C., is abandoned, with the government relocated to St. Louis, and Gibbons briefly indulges in a Michael Bay-esque trashing of Boston, a spectacle of the sort that the book could frankly use more of.

Although the miscegenation theme is clearly of paramount importance to Gibbons, his description of what actually happens in Occupied America is oblique to the point of absurdity, never coming out and saying what is obviously inferred about rape. Only in the book's earliest and final pages (set after the war) does Gibbons reflect unambiguously on the consequences of Karakhan's policy "CONQUER AND BREED" policy (yes, in all caps):

"...the thousands of Eurasian, mulatto, mestizo children, half-yellow, half-black, half-brown, or half-red, born to white women in the wake of his conquering armies in Europe and the Americas, he holds that they constitute the lasting mark he has made upon the population of the world and calls them the first step toward the "deliverance of mankind from the curse of race prejudice."

Very little of this comes out in the account of the war itself, which is instead an endless list of engagements, battle orders, regimental movements, and the occasional name-dropping of politicians Gibbons particularly likes or dislikes. For good measure, America's beleaguered conscript force is aided by surviving military members of the Italian "fascisti" and the German Nazi Party, and other, you know, white guys.

In the end, Karakhan is defeated after a disastrous naval engagement made possible by a piece of espionage executed by the Gibbons character himself, a sequence that's just about as contrived and self-aggrandizing as it sounds. This leads to a chain of events that devastates the Red Army in far fewer pages than it took to build it up. The fictional Gibbons -- a journalist, mind you -- personally captures the fleeing Karakhan, bringing an end to the war.

Of course, victory comes too late for white people, who are left to cope with a world now thoroughly miscegenated. Oddly, Karakhan is sent to exile in Bermuda, rather than being tried for war crimes or at least imprisoned in Siberia.

While The Red Napoleon is far more overtly political than its Red Dawn descendants, it's not much more subtle or complex. Lefties, pacifists, and dirty foreigners are the problem, righties and whiteys are the solution. That's about as deep as things ever get, although Gibbons' solemn inscription at the front of the book suggests the author imagined he was being somehow constructive:


" DEDICATED TO THE HOPE THAT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN "

Nckdictator posted:

Now I just have to mention The Red Napoleon

Nckdictator posted:

Now I just have to mention The Red Napoleon

thatbastardken posted:

I like that this dude hated whites so much that he massacred the entire white population of Australia at the time. I can really get behind that kind of work ethic.

Jazerus posted:

Once the series was past World War I it kind of collapsed in my opinion. All of the clearly passionate research and thinking about the path that things could have gone on had the CSA really had the chops to be an independent state was thrown aside in favor of yet another Turtledove WW2 book. I think my favorite detail is that Lincoln is the primary founder of the Socialist party.

I agree with your interpretation of the overall message of the series, the Southern Victory timeline is clearly a pretty miserable place to be even if there are also some minor bright spots compared to real history.

Nckdictator posted:

Metal Loaf posted:

Conroy wrote another book called 1901. I've not read it but my brother has.

It's about Imperial Germany invading the continental United States in 1901; I believe this was an actual war plan developed by the German military, though the possibility of it ever being out into practice, as far as I'm aware, was never more than remote. Some features I remember include octogenarian James Longstreet coming out of retirement to command the defence, McKinley suffers a convenient heart attack and dies so Internet Favourite(tm) Theodore Roosevelt can lead the war effort, and when the Germans lose and the Kaiser is deposed, the successor government decides they'll blame the Jews.

Grouchio posted:

Does this site have any threads beside this that specialize in alternate history?

Grouchio posted:

I was once a member of Alternate History forums before I was banned for a misinterpreted quip because they thought I was some misogynist, when really I just had social difficulties around girls/ making friends until 6 months ago.

muscles like this? posted:

Personally, I think I prefer Alternate History short stories rather than novels. Short stories let the author get their point across without getting bogged down too much in miscellaneous details.

Reveilled posted:

In your quest to befriend people and act normally around girls, I would recommend against mentioning this event to people you just met.