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DoctorWhat posted:I just read a pretty good analysis of the Abortion stuff in Kill the Moon that lays out the various readings involved and all the textual evidence that supports / refutes each of the readings. Forgive the pony bullshit, Froborr manages to not be a creep about that stuff so I'm cool with the guy. Hmmm, do I want to believe that the guy whose web handle can be read as My Little Porno is not a creep? What does PO-MO mean?
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Oct 7, 2014 21:28
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| # ? May 3, 2024 02:31 |
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Post-modern, as in post-modernism, an artistic style and school of literary analysis.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:29
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Don't know if this has been posted or not, but Neil Gaiman has some thoughts on Doctor Who's female writers. Some people are not happy about it, as you would expect.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:37
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Illuen posted:Don't know if this has been posted or not, but Neil Gaiman has some thoughts on Doctor Who's female writers. Some people are not happy about it, as you would expect. That's sort of interesting, if only because Neil got in a bit of trouble by commenting on the possibility of a woman playing the Doctor. I don't remember the details except that he indicated later that it was a misunderstanding. He's usually pretty harmless on social media and just sort of retweets when people say nice things about his work or indicates where he (or his wife) will be for events.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:44
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He does have a point. The show's been running, on and off, for 50 years, was produced by a pioneering woman in her field and you can count the number of women to have writing credits on one hand. Literally.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:48
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Yeah, Doctor Who has an unusually low amount of women involved in the writing, even for television, which is saying something.
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Oct 7, 2014 21:54
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Gaz-L posted:He does have a point. The show's been running, on and off, for 50 years, was produced by a pioneering woman in her field and you can count the number of women to have writing credits on one hand. Literally. You can count the number since the revival (in these more refined, progressive days) on the fingers of one finger.
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Oct 7, 2014 22:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Are three women usually involved in the decision to have an abortion? People keep bringing it up as evidence in favour of that interpretation and I don't get it. It's not specific to abortion, but somebody pointed out earlier in the thread that Lundvik, Clara and Courtney can be seen to represent the Triple Goddess - Crone, Mother & Maiden. They're the ones charged with deciding the fate of the moon-baby, with the Doctor declaring that he has no right to make that decision (a point that Clara later viciously tears apart) and leaving it up to them. I think there is very definitely element of abortion in the story, though as I said earlier I think the episode is very much pro-choice. It isn't a straightforward or clear analogy though, and I think it is being overemphasised when - as others have noted - the story really fits more in with the rest of the season's theme of when is it morally justified to take or save a life.
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Oct 7, 2014 22:09
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Jerusalem posted:It's not specific to abortion, but somebody pointed out earlier in the thread that Lundvik, Clara and Courtney can be seen to represent the Triple Goddess - Crone, Mother & Maiden. They're the ones charged with deciding the fate of the moon-baby, with the Doctor declaring that he has no right to make that decision (a point that Clara later viciously tears apart) and leaving it up to them. The answer is "It's never morally justified, but some times you have to do it anyways. Unless the whole thing is a non issue and the consequences of not taking that life magically fix themselves and render everything kind of pointless"
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Oct 7, 2014 22:39
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, anyone reading this episode as being anything to do with abortion except on an extremely superficial level is baffling to me. The analogy doesn't hold up for even like two steps (if you don't get this abortion...billions might die!!) and, as mentioned, abortion is not a controversial issue in Britain at all, the pro-life movement is very much an American cultural artefact. As an American, that's the general subtext I was getting from the scene, but as you say it doesn't hold up well on reflection. I think the episode was a mish-mash of ideas and had some pretty terribly scripted sections, that being one of them. They probably weren't going for any kind of abortion metaphor, except perhaps in the big ABORTED sign we got when Clara stopped the countdown. Feh. This and Deep Breath are neck in neck for shittiest episodes of the series so far. I still am mad at their slapdash physics and I'm glad other folks have children pointing out, "Eggs don't work that way!" Thanks kids, you're going to turn out alright.
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Oct 7, 2014 23:17
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I will say, for as much bile as I can lob at this, it's still better than Deep Breath for two reasons. It is A LOT shorter, and Clara blowing up on the Doctor is well deserved. Into the Dalek is still the best this season.
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Oct 7, 2014 23:43
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To cast "Kill the Moon" as an anti-abortion narrative (I will not loving use "pro-life" to refer to those people because by an odd coincidence they're anti-life in every other way that matters) requires some impressive mental gymnastics, or rather inattentive viewing. We as the audience are presumed to have awe and sympathy for the new life, but also understand why it might be necessary to end it. If I had to take away any commentary on abortion from the episode, it'd be "abortion is an act with grave ethical consequences, but nevertheless is sometimes a valid choice, and a choice a woman should have". But yeah, no, I don't think the narrative is intentionally about that. As DoctorWhat said, it's probably something that arose accidentally, and then that theme was discovered, and the more unfortunate elements present were patched up. It's a classic "ethical dilemma" episode. Like other episodes this season, it reuses and recontextualizes themes from past episodes, in this case most obviously "The Waters of Mars" and "The Beast Below". But the Time Lord Victorious and the Doctor who leaves Clara and Courtney to decide the creature's fate are opposites. I haven't yet entirely unpacked the connections between "Moon" and "Beast", but the act of voting in particular seems significant. quote:Back to Who, it's really taking a lot longer for this big plot to get going than I thought it would. Don't we usually get a big reveal around episode 6 or so? I can't recall. But all we've seen is Missy in bureaucracy afterlife, doing her thing. Moffat seems to be taking the Rusty approach of dropping little bits every now and then, leading up to a big reveal in the second or third-to-last episode. but anyway, the arc is more clearly than ever the relationship between the Doctor and his companion, as it is warped and maybe broken by his regeneration and subsequent personality shift. Being in this Doctor's company is like hugging a skinny, extremely bony person. You're gonna get poked, and it's not going to be as fun as you think it should be. The comparison seems especially appropriate because this Doctor dislikes hugs (very revealing, that).
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Oct 8, 2014 00:18
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If you really want to do this... One can assume that the critter's actual mother wanted its egg to hatch (assuming it's still around and capable of wanting things). Clara was respecting the mother's wishes. 
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Oct 8, 2014 00:51
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I went to see one of the James Plays at the National a couple of months ago and it only reinforced my longstanding belief that if there's one writer from the classic series who should unquestionably be invited to do some more, it's Rona Munro.
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Oct 8, 2014 00:54
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Since this is a childrens show, any thematic reference to abortion was likely not intended to be the main focus of the episode.
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Oct 8, 2014 01:56
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It's a family show. Kids get the big obvious dilemma about killing the dragon or destroying the world, adults get to "enjoy" the subtext about abortion.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:06
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Pwnstar posted:Since this is a childrens show, any thematic reference to abortion was likely not intended to be the main focus of the episode. I'm just going to say this. Bull poo poo. Now I do not agree that abortion was what was going on here, though you got some STRONG hints of it at teh scene proper, to the point where I had to shout down a friend before he started a rant on it, but excusing Doctor Who from virtually anything because 'it's a kids show' does not fly. Because it's REALLY not. Power Rangers is a kids show. Kamen Rider is a kids show. Avatar the Last Airbender is a kids show. Doctor Who is a FAMILY show. It is aimed at both kids and adults. It is aimed at the general audience. It can and does tackle themes that kid shows flat out are NOT allowed to. How many straight up references to sex and boning do you see in Doctor Who? A loving ton. How much death, ON SCREEN MURDER, do you see? Loooooooooots. How many times does the Doctor have to do something SUPER morally questionable because it's what he has to do? All the Goddamn time. Fires of Pompeii is fresh in a lot of people's minds so I will use that. In a children's series, the fact that the Doctor had to, HAD to, personally trigger the volcano and kill thousands of people would never, ever have flown. The fact that he ACTUALLY DOES? It never would have aired. He would have found some third bullshit option where he got to magically teleport everyone away at the last moment, with some kind of quantum after image garbage being left in their place to APPEAR as if they all died because HAPPY ENDINGS! Doctor Who is and should be better than that.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:11
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Dabir posted:It's a family show. Kids get the big obvious dilemma about killing the dragon or destroying the world, adults get to "enjoy" the subtext about abortion. Yeah this is a better way to say it actually thanks. For the record I watched this episode with my little brother and we were loving every minute of it. When the moon was cracking and spiders were coming out we were both like "ITS AN EGG!" and when the Doctor said that later on we were fist pumping and being the lame-os that we are. This show is hella fun to watch in that mindset I would definitely recommend it. Goons please do not kidnap children to achieve this.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:13
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A kids show where an alien melts some guys brain into "soup" that comes out his eyes and his skull caves inBurkion posted:He would have found some third bullshit option where he got to magically teleport everyone away at the last moment, with some kind of quantum after image garbage being left in their place to APPEAR as if they all died because HAPPY ENDINGS! Note: This is pretty much what happened this episode. (third optioning a magically everyone is okay solution) Come to think the beast below was the same moral quandary only far more intelligently handled (doctor was going to save people at the cost of the beast, amy didn't just help the beast out of charity but did so when worked out that it was sentient and things would be alright) These are two reasons why metaphor or not the more I think about this episode the more disappointed I get.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:19
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Rita Repulsa posted:A kids show where an alien melts some guys brain into "soup" that comes out his eyes and his skull caves in I agree with pretty much all of this. High fives all around.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:29
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Kids love people's skulls getting melted by monsters.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:49
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Rita Repulsa posted:A kids show where an alien melts some guys brain into "soup" that comes out his eyes and his skull caves in The Doctor third optioned a magically okay solution to the kids plot, as it were, but the rest of the episode didn't exactly end happily.
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Oct 8, 2014 09:34
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Everything doesn't have to have a subtext - some times a family show about a man in a magic box and a moon egg is just that.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:09
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Mr Beens posted:Everything doesn't have to have a subtext - some times a family show about a man in a magic box and a moon egg is just that. Sometimes it is; the popular reaction to this episode shows this is not one of those times. One forum that runs a poll with hundred of votes has this with three times the proportion of 1 out of 5 ratings as the previous low (the genuinely terrible Curse of the Black Spot). Another has a long term fan making plans to organise a movement to get the show cancelled. Meanwhile, other reviewers rate it as literally the best episode of the last 50 years. Something is definiteley going on, but I suspect that making a complicated and dubious argument about abortion/racism/science is a symptom, not a cause. That's just what people do these days when they find something they hate.
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Oct 8, 2014 10:49
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radmonger posted:Another has a long term fan making plans to organise a movement to get the show cancelled. Wait, what?
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Oct 8, 2014 10:56
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There are way too many on-screen deaths for Doctor Who to be labeled a kid's show, even if it has some moments that are clearly aimed for kids. It's pretty common for a character to be introduced, maybe even given a name and several lines, and then have them killed on camera a bit later just for the sake of showing us that the Doctor and his companion are in danger.
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Oct 8, 2014 11:15
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radmonger posted:Another has a long term fan making plans to organise a movement to get the show cancelled. Geez, Ian Levine really went off the deep end, huh? 
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Oct 8, 2014 11:31
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Doctor Who is a kid's show in the same way Star Trek is a kid's show; i.e. children can watch it and understand what's going on, adults can watch it and understand subtext and enjoy it on several different levels. They literally have the same target demographic, but you don't really see In The Pale Moonlight get dismissed as inconsequential because "it's for children".
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Oct 8, 2014 13:31
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Pwnstar posted:Yeah this is a better way to say it actually thanks. For the record I watched this episode with my little brother and we were loving every minute of it. When the moon was cracking and spiders were coming out we were both like "ITS AN EGG!" and when the Doctor said that later on we were fist pumping and being the lame-os that we are. This show is hella fun to watch in that mindset I would definitely recommend it. Yeah, you can just smoke weed to get that same effect!
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Oct 8, 2014 14:21
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2house2fly posted:Kids love people's skulls getting melted by monsters. This but unironically. poo poo like this was top of the world back when we were like 10 or 12 or so.
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Oct 8, 2014 14:49
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My stepdaughter has sat through The Ark in Space and a man turning into a green plan monster. She has sat through Blink and thinks the Weeping Angels aren’t so bad. She doesn’t understand why NOT seeing the monster in Midnight was so scary. Kids are tougher than we think, or find scary things absolutely enthralling in a “I can tell the kids at school what I just saw” kind of way. She LOVES to make her friends watch scary things, and her friends either don't like it or are absolutely intrigued. Of course, the episodes she absolutely REFUSES to watch are The Talons of Weng-Chiang because of the puppet on the DVD cover and The Shakespeare Code because she saw the witches in the “Next Time” trailer and thinks they’re the scariest thing since Common Core Math.
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Oct 8, 2014 16:09
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Mr Sin creeps me the gently caress out, and is also the reason why I'm reluctant to watch Wang Chieng, so nice to see a little girl agrees with me. 
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Oct 8, 2014 16:20
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For some reason I thought you were talking about Fingermouse and that was very confusing
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Oct 8, 2014 16:23
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In retrospect Fingermouse was the shittest thing ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIoafYh5HJE
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Oct 8, 2014 16:24
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The idea was not "should kids watch this" or "do kids enjoy this", it was "is this a 'children's show'" Kids can watch and enjoy slasher films or game of thrones but no one would say they're for children and use that as an excuse for a weak episode or film.
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Oct 8, 2014 16:28
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MrL_JaKiri posted:In retrospect Fingermouse was the shittest thing ever  And the 90s BBC logo!
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Oct 8, 2014 17:17
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Sorry if this's been posted and I missed it, but Doctor Who footnote turned apparently decent podcast The Minister of Chance is seeking funding for a film on Kickstarter. Sylvester McCoy and Paul McGann are involved, though of course they're not playing The Doctor.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:13
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Meanwhile, Colin Baker (and some other folks, no idea who they are) are now paid DLC for the Xbox version of Minecraft, apparently.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:30
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They're just some character skins. People seem to like those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKyt12Ezh3s
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Oct 8, 2014 20:52
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There are more episodes of Doctor Who by Steven Moffat than there are by all women ever. 
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Oct 8, 2014 21:08
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