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Himuro posted:This was in X, dude. Yevon is a summoner originally from Zanarkand, which had robots. His beef is not robots or machina. Oh right, I remembered wrong. Still Zanarkand and Bevell was in war with each other and Sin is supposed to protect the Dream-Zanarkand, why would it ignore Bevell? And I'm pretty sure Yevon himself doesn't appear in X until the very end, but by then he is a giant tick, and neither are his action explained other than overwatching the summon of Dream-Zanarkand and summoning Sin himself. Himuro posted:No, he wasn't. She find's Jyscal's sphere that shows how twisted Seymour is, killed by his own son. Then she rushes to Macalania Temple to kill him herself. She did this by agreeing to the marriage. She also didn't wanted to kill Seymour, she wanted to... talk him out of being evil I guess.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:09
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Himuro posted:Which ending do you refer to? The new epilogue in FFXHD.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:13
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ShadeofDante posted:
Zaphod42 posted:FFXIII's biggest problem though is just how completely unlikeable all its characters are. Sazh is good for comic relief but that's it, Lightning is decently badass but that's it, and Snow is Snow, I guess. Everybody else is loving terrible. And even those four are a pretty rough and simple group of characters. Don't get me started on Hope and Vanille.  Snow and Hope though...blegh Himuro posted:Disagree in full. You're on the run, but it rarely feels like you're on the run. Meanwhile in X it truly feels like a journey. More than that, being on the run is no excuse for the lack of interactivity, npcs, or world building. In VI, you live in a world where they're under the watch of a virtual God, and they still wonder around, recruiting people to defeat him. FFX builds its world up. Pyreflies? Let's talk about that, shall we? FFXIII though? WE CAN'T TALK NOW WE'RE ON THE RUN. It's extremely lazy and ineffectual. The gameplay, plot, and pacing don't gain anything from it. Which is quite the opposite to FFX's structure. I guess we'll just have to agree ti disagree then. I mean, when you're on the run, you really can't afford to go to crowded places or talk to people, especially when your brand is in plain view or the police are broadcasting your image everywhere*. I will agree with you on world building. The world and mythology of Pulse and Cocoon are rather interesting, but all of it gets relegated to data entries and the like. If you don't read those, the world comes off as rather...empty.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:13
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Harrow posted:Think of Tidus and Jecht like they're aeons. They (and their Zanarkand) were created in pretty much the same way. In practical terms, they ARE aeons. As I said before, it's also hinted that Jecht and Tidus aren't the first dreams they've used to help end the stupid cycle, either. Bholder posted:Oh right, I remembered wrong. No, look at the cutscene again. She's clearly there to kill Seymour. She went to Macalania Temple to get Shiva. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT72mx2E2VI "I came to stop you!"
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Oct 8, 2014 18:17
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Postal Parcel posted:The fact that you didn't mention Fang as the best girl makes it clear that you have bad taste. Team Fang forever  Also I liked Hope by the end of the game, actually pretty much after you meet his dad he turns out okay. What XIII taught me is that I play Final Fantasy games mostly for the plot. XIII wasn't a good story, and I recognize XIII-2's gameplay is superior, but I just can't stomach all the Noel/Caius horseshit, and the time travel mechanic was pretty lazy. So I find myself replaying XIII over XIII-2. Still haven't tried LR because XIII-2 was so bad.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:21
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Hope gets a lot of undeserved hate, I think. For me, the best characters in 13 are Sazh, Fang, and Hope. Hope really isn't that bad. The fact he tried to kill Snow, who is utter poo poo, gives him infinite kudo points from me.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:24
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I like Snow because Troy Baker's voice is cool
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Oct 8, 2014 18:26
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I hate Snow and appreciated the fact that Hope was trying to murder him.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:28
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Beef Waifu posted:I hate Snow and appreciated the fact that Hope was trying to murder him. Team gently caress Snow. gently caress yes.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:29
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I can't see how anyone could like Hope and not Snow. They are essential to each other's character arcs and development. They were a huge reason i played XIII for the first...eight or nine chapters. I wanted to see how their subplot would be resolved. As such, they were my favorite characters. I have only a few real criticisms of FFX. 1. The Calm. Most people have the fan notion that the Calm lasts a decade. This is generally assumed because Braska defeated Sin 10 years ago and now yuna and the others are setting out to kill Sin ten years later. The reality is the Calm only lasts a few months. Now I can buy going on a big quest and giving up your life to bring the world ten years of peace. But a few months? Nope, that's pretty dumb. 2. Dream Zanarkand is too weird and poorly explained. Most people never realized it's a real, physical place, out on an island somewhere. The "temporal mechanics" of it are weird too. Tidus is Jecht's son and they both aged normally which means the city is not just a recreation. It is actually "alive" in some sense. All these dream people can have children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and it's just weird when you try to figure out what Tidus' relationship is to Shuyin. Although I guess that particular plot point is a X-2 problem.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:30
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Himuro posted:In practical terms, they ARE aeons. As I said before, it's also hinted that Jecht and Tidus aren't the first dreams they've used to help end the stupid cycle, either. Looked up, later on she says she wanted to convince him to give himself up, in exchange for marriage, that's why she didn't tell the rest of the group.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:34
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NikkolasKing posted:I can't see how anyone could like Hope and not Snow. They are essential to each other's character arcs and development. Because, HERO, Snow's an arrogant rear end in a top hat who has no character except to yell SERAHHHHHHHHHHH like Michael from Lost. There's only so much "SERAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" and hero this, hero that, before you want that character to die. Snow says,"Heroes never die!" with a side smirk and anime nod unironically. Hope calls Snow out on all his poo poo. He's just this big poser loser dude with a rag tag group of beach bums who crime fight for a side jobs who call themselves HEROES one hundred times. If only there were an FFXIII compilation of all the times Snow says HERO so I wouldn't have to type all these words on how much I loving hate his character. Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 18:37
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Himuro posted:Team gently caress Snow. gently caress yes. Endgame I roll with Fang/Light/Hope because it's the two people who Falcon Punch'd Snow and the kid who was plotting to murder him. 
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Oct 8, 2014 18:45
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Bregor posted:This is why a new FF game needs to have Jecht as a summoned monster. Ok, this is a great idea that I am shocked I never even considered. Square-enix(soft)....get on this.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:51
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Help Im Alive posted:I like Snow because Troy Baker's voice is cool STEELGUARD!
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Oct 8, 2014 19:10
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There is only one wannabe Hero in all of FF and his name is Zack. He got his wish in the end. 
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Oct 8, 2014 19:16
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Bregor posted:Team Fang forever You are missing the best of the three. You really should play it.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:17
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They should make a Crisis in the Core of the Before Crisis Core: Final Fantasy 7 that features Mecha-Zack.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:18
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Kalenn Istarion posted:You are missing the best of the three. You really should play it. Eh, c'est la vie.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:18
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Kalenn Istarion posted:You are missing the best of the three. You really should play it. He speaks the truth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgpJ2tQowdc
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Oct 8, 2014 19:18
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Krad posted:There is only one wannabe Hero in all of FF and his name is Zack. Ya know, every problem with the retcons in Crisis Core fade away for me when you are fighting that last fight, and you know whats going to happen, but you keep fighting. Your memories are beaten out of you, and yet you keep fighting. You fight and fight until even the memory of that lovely flower girl leaves you, and alone...in the dirt, one last round of gunfire ends your adventure.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:18
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Postal Parcel posted:He speaks the truth Yeah, the goofy poo poo in LR (and XIII-2) almost makes up for the unrelenting melodrama of XIII (and XIII-2). Also dressing up Lightning in the goofiest, neon, ear-searingly ugly costumes and sticking things like top hats, moustaches, eyepatches and beanies on her will never cease to amuse.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:34
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I only believe in FFVII Canon where Zack was this bitch who got off-screened by Sephiroth in three seconds and then later got shot to death by two Shinra Grunts that we've been beating since the start of the game. i hate Zack.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:39
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NikkolasKing posted:I have only a few real criticisms of FFX. What's dumb about it? People have been so terrified of Sin that sleeping peacefully is the highest luxury one can have. Yuna explains why people are willing to die for a few months of peace, because they have hope that one day their ritual path will end Sin and that hope is the only reason to still live.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:02
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NikkolasKing posted:I can't see how anyone could like Hope and not Snow. They are essential to each other's character arcs and development. They were a huge reason i played XIII for the first...eight or nine chapters. I wanted to see how their subplot would be resolved. As such, they were my favorite characters. 1. Yeah, it would feel better as a decade than a few months. But if its still saving the lives of like hundreds of people, isn't that still worth it? If its worth sacrificing one person to get 10 years of peace, isn't it worth like 20 people? It muddies the message a bit yeah, but it still works. 2. Definitely, its the worst part of the FFX narrative that you spend half the game not sure if dream-zanarkand is in another dimension or what. They needed to make it clear it was part of the same world (Spira?) so that the "its all a hologram/dream" thing makes a little more sense. Are you sure about the 'temporal mechanics', though? I mean the game kinda leaves it grey, I think, which is how they should treat it. Don't overly-explain some of those things, you can fill them in on your own. Where are you getting that they both aged normally? Zanarkand could be caught in like a giant groundhog day where every morning most things would reset, but being part of the dream-reality they just didn't notice. Or things could be fairly static, with people moving around but not aging or having children. The whole Shuyin thing was pretty dumb IMO. The way I interpreted it was Shuyin is the original non-dream Tidus, who has lived this long because he's unsent. The dream people are only a reflection of what the fayth knew or were capable of recreating of the memory of Zanarkand, while Shuyin lived on (or... didn't)
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Oct 8, 2014 20:08
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Zaphod42 posted:The whole Shuyin thing was pretty dumb IMO. The way I interpreted it was Shuyin is the original non-dream Tidus, who has lived this long because he's unsent. The dream people are only a reflection of what the fayth knew or were capable of recreating of the memory of Zanarkand, while Shuyin lived on (or... didn't) I'm not sure about the whole groundhog day thing but this quoted bit is essentially my interpretation of Shuyin as well.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:16
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Zaphod42 posted:Where are you getting that they both aged normally? Because Auron went to Dream Zanarkand ten years ago. We see flashbacks of little Tidus from around ten years ago as well. Finally, the Blitzball guy at the start of the game says they are having the Jecht Memorial Cup or whatever because Jecht disappeared ten years ago. Jecht coming to Spira obviously never happened before so they can't be repeating it. Shuyin is indeed most likely the real person "template" Tidus was based off of. It's just hard to make work with what we know of Dream Zanarkand. Then again, X-2 also changed the Farplane a lot. In X-2 it's basically the Lifestream. I never got the impression that's how it worked in X. "X-2 Changed Everything From The Original" might as well be the tagline for the game. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 20:54
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NikkolasKing posted:Then again, X-2 also changed the Farplane a lot. In X-2 it's basically the Lifestream. I never got the impression that's how it worked in X. To be fair we got basically nothing about the farplane in FFX proper. We learned 3 things "Souls go there when we die and it's got some physical place to it","You can stand on the edge of it and see images of dead people", and "Some bits of consciousness survive crossing over since Seymour's dad breaks out." Which all brings in more questions than it answers, really. Is it just a physical place? Like do ghosts just go to this very pretty hole in the ground? What lives there besides ghosts and pyreflies? It's got plants and water and its own sun so obviously it can and is sustaining life? It's less changing how it worked and more filling in how it worked since it was really nebulous in FFX. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 21:01
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While people are talking about XIII and the poor characters, does XIII-2 ever improve from the initial Noel/Serah setup? A full game with the two of them and a non-interactive monster pet was daunting and I quit somewhere after a few "worlds".
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Oct 8, 2014 21:08
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nuru posted:While people are talking about XIII and the poor characters, does XIII-2 ever improve from the initial Noel/Serah setup? A full game with the two of them and a non-interactive monster pet was daunting and I quit somewhere after a few "worlds". No. The only interesting character in 13-2 are On-The-Job-Caius and From-The-Future-Evil-Caius
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Oct 8, 2014 21:10
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NikkolasKing posted:Because Auron went to Dream Zanarkand ten years ago. We see flashbacks of little Tidus from around ten years ago as well. Finally, the Blitzball guy at the start of the game says they are having the Jecht Memorial Cup or whatever because Jecht disappeared ten years ago. Jecht coming to Spira obviously never happened before so they can't be repeating it. The flashbacks could have been of original Tidus aka Shuyin. I did forget about little Tidus though, hmm. I need to find that scene. Jecht dissapearing makes total sense because Jecht left Zanarkand and went on to do poo poo in Spira with Sin. So the rest of the dream-world would be like "hey where did he go?" No part of that invalidates the two examples I set up, you could still groundhog day it but just have Jecht now not there each morning, or you could have the static world where people walk around but don't age, and he would just leave and then things continue on. Now if he left when Tidus was still little and then Tidus grew up in the dream world, that would kinda invalidate it yeah. Yeah X-2 definitely did some retconning.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:17
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No. The only interesting character in 13-2 are On-The-Job-Caius and From-The-Future-Evil-Caius Well, maybe I can "the gameplay isn't terrible" my way through it by putting hats on monsters.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:18
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Nah, it's coherent. When Zanarkand was created, it was based on certain people but it was created to functionally replicate an existing city. The people in the city are based off the originals because that is the only template they have but they're their own beings. (As much as dream-people can be.) Presumably if it hadn't collapsed somehow down the line there would have been some other similar-looking douchebag to Tidus. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 21:24
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:To be fair we got basically nothing about the farplane in FFX proper. We learned 3 things "Souls go there when we die and it's got some physical place to it","You can stand on the edge of it and see images of dead people", and "Some bits of consciousness survive crossing over since Seymour's dad breaks out." Which all brings in more questions than it answers, really. Is it just a physical place? Like do ghosts just go to this very pretty hole in the ground? What lives there besides ghosts and pyreflies? It's got plants and water and its own sun so obviously it can and is sustaining life? It's less changing how it worked and more filling in how it worked since it was really nebulous in FFX. The fact that the Farplane was super nebulous and weird in FFX actually added to it's mystique. As for Final Fantasy XIII, I might be crazy but for me during the entire beginning portion of the game, probably up until the Barthandelus fight, I was super hooked on the game. Everything made sense to me, the characters although maybe annoying to some didn't really bother me that much and they all pretty much had their motivation. The concept that having an uncaring, unloving, almost omnipotent god like figure take notice of you being the worst thing that could possibly happen was very interesting to me. Hell it even seemed like they were developing some villains, Yaag and Jihl were doing bad things and I was getting excited as the prospect of them getting further characterization and that I would get boss battles with them in the future. It wasn't until people say the game actually "gets good" that it started to fall apart for me. Those omnipotent god-like beings are now either just cackling villains or weird huge animal/monsters that can be killed by dudes, and you have to wander around pulse after fleeing Cocoon to...go back to Cocoon and destroy Cocoon to save Cocoon? What are you talking about? Did anybody know that Fang/Vanille were going to become the crystal pillar beforehand or did they just get extremely lucky that Cocoon didn't crash to the earth and kill everyone? It just got so bad.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:26
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No. The only interesting character in 13-2 are ftfy
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Oct 8, 2014 21:36
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I like Hope because he's voiced by Phineas Flynn and his summon is a giant robot.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:39
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XIII started to fall apart for me around the time they repeated the line "Don't you get it? We're Pulse L'Cie! Enemies of Coccoon!" for the fifth time. They never, ever, ever shut up about that phrase. Ever. This is why the post-game was so good; the characters stopped talking. That, and because it gave us the best Tonberry intro ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKyBwfHg3m4
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Oct 8, 2014 21:42
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TARDISman posted:I like Hope because he's voiced by Phineas Flynn and his summon is a giant robot.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:43
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Nihilarian posted:Everyone's summon is a giant robot though. Fang's is a giant robot dragon, for example Yeah, but his is Alexander, no crazy dragons or twins that turn into a bike or Norse god that turns into a horse. Just a big robot that turns into another big robot.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:45
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ImpAtom posted:The new epilogue in FFXHD. They tried to make that awful loving novel canon, didn't they? 
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Oct 8, 2014 22:01
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