|
I really disagree with the "in vanilla pilum spam is also too good" thing. Vanilla has lots of missile counters - and they're light enough on outfitting points to make a fleet with adequate point defense more than possible. They did screw themselves by including mods in the tourney though. If there's anything mods do is make unbalanced weapons and ships especially compared to vanilla and if you add cross-mod upgrades in - it was silly from the start.
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 11:35 |
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:I really disagree with the "in vanilla pilum spam is also too good" thing. Vanilla has lots of missile counters - and they're light enough on outfitting points to make a fleet with adequate point defense more than possible. They did screw themselves by including mods in the tourney though. If there's anything mods do is make unbalanced weapons and ships especially compared to vanilla and if you add cross-mod upgrades in - it was silly from the start. I actually tried out the Pilum spam in a carrier fleet with whatsitcalled. The heavy mining carrier. Getting Expanded Missile Racks + the missile targeting mod, it gets really really silly. The reason being that fighters are particularly good at overwhelming the point defense. Luckily, Fast Missile Racks isn't a very common System, so that makes a huge huge huge difference. Once thats on a ship it fires a *lot* of Pilums. Which gets real real bad bad. But then again its not exactly fun after the umpteenth time and playing something more challenging is more enjoyable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 20:05
|
|
|
I'm not saying Pilums are bad. Pilums on something with Fast Racks are probably the best missiles in vanilla - but that setup is fairly rare in vanilla. But there's a ton of counters for swarms of LRMs in vanilla too - although it's fairly counter-intuitive because it's not the Point-Defense lasers (it's the Flaks, swarmer missiles and hordes of cheap fighters who really love going after missiles).
DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 20:08
|
|
|
None of the ships involved in breaking the game in the tournament had fast missile racks. It's simply a problem of economies of scale. If enough ships have missile launchers, particularly missile launchers with magazines, it breaks the game. FMRs make the problem worse, but aren't really the source of the problem. It's really a matter of how the weapon type was designed; even if your hypothesis that their initial design limitation was planned to be based on reload time rather than ammo is correct, in their current state missiles are generally intended to be used for delivering critical strikes. The fundamental problem is that really isn't a way to counter huge swathes of missiles being launched all at once because, however the case came to be, they're intended to be secondary armaments of limited use and availability. MShadowy fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 21:03
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure those missiles in that screenshot aren't vanilla. The fact that ships without fast missile racks broke the tournament with missiles just confirms that mod missiles also have the same no-reload-time problem (and that modders aren't good at balance, but that's a known thing).
DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 21:21
|
|
|
Modders love to put in silly missle launchers into their mods. I've definately played mods with poo poo like "40 missiles in a medium mount firing 4 per attack every 3 seconds" before now, with comparable op costs to a medium harpoon rack. I think the worst example was uh, that mod with the very angular ships with the flux shunts? I forget the name. The missle launchers in that mod were downright silly.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 21:28
|
|
|
Yeah, and... ? Even the best PD can shoot down only so many missiles in a given time frame--and flak has the advantage of offering the ability to get lucky and shoot down a lot of missiles at once. For the record, while from a mod, those missiles are not, to my knowledge, particularly fast or damaging, and the launchers take about 5 times as long to load as vanilla launchers. Again, the issue is that there are literally dozens of Mercuries each with one of those missile launchers; the same issue emerges with Pilums, as has previously been noted. Please note we are speaking from experience here; we've seen this poo poo. The guy who was moderating the tournament literally removed a ship from a mod of his because of how absurdly overpowered Pilum spam turned out to be. And in the end, experience shows that it's not just limited to Pilums; this is literally a problem with all missiles. All of them. Once you have enough, nothing can compete. It's just not immediately apparent because the game tries to limit access to it. I know of course you're not going to believe this, so please enjoy this pleasant video demonstrating the issue. All vanilla. Mercuries with harpoons and sabots vs. Enforcers with Flak Cannons. Edit: I should probably note that at least, barring abuse of he Omnifactory mod, this is at least somewhat difficult to abuse. That doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be considered, however. Double Edit: Also, forgot to mention; both fleets have exactly the same MShadowy fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 22:15
|
|
|
I've been using a Pilum fleet (Achilles cruisers and Hammer frigates) in Uomoz and it is game-changing; it totally wipes the floor with AI fleets (helps to get them scouted out and distracted by fighters first), but having a load of glass cannon-y ships has obvious flaws. I wonder if anyone tried countering this type of fleet before it was declared unbeatable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 22:19
|
|
|
Yep. Re-hashing, it's fairly clear once you start modding that missiles in vanilla generally fall under one of a few categories: 1. Dumb-fire spammy missiles 2. Guided (but slow) powerful missiles 3. Guided (but fast) less powerful missiles Obviously there are subcategories of each, but in general, #1 are used for alpha-strikes (or against disabled enemies) and usually have lots of ammo, #2 are used when an enemy is venting or overloaded (or otherwise has dropped shields) to finish them off and usually has very little ammo, and #3 are either anti-small-craft (fighters or frigate) or specialty missiles (such as harpoons, which go after engines) and usually have moderate-to-low amounts of ammo. All of them are limited by ammo or reload time (or more often, both). In vanilla this is (mostly, though not entirely from MShadowy's example above) kept balanced because very few ships have many launcher spots, which ensures that ammo and reload times remain downsides to missiles. Also, most missiles in vanilla have pretty limited ammunition. Once you start throwing mods in, this all goes out the window. The problem is that a missile weapon may well be balanced on ships of its own mod, but if you stick it on a vanilla ship or a ship from another mod, it very well may be overpowered (or, conversely, totally useless). This might be because of the launcher (too much ammo or too little reload time) or the ship (too many launcher slots). Kenshin fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
MShadowy posted:Yeah, and... ? That's hardly a proper comparison. You're putting a spam fleet against another spam fleet. Just because Enforcers did good in the tourney doesn't mean they're the ultimate ship. An alpha striking fleet of cheap stuff with a couple of shots of big damage is pretty much the perfect counter to an all-capital ship fleet (especially Enforcers which excel at taking down stuff bigger than them, not smaller). Also there's no one-weapon-solution so just slapping as much Flak on there as possible isn't really going to work especially on single-ship spam. I'll also note that the Mercuries are equipped with exactly the kind of missile that breaks the good missile design pattern - a strike missile (let's assume that such a thing is needed) that for some dumb reason gets to have it's medium version with a bigger ammo pool (and still no loving reload time) for no increase in mount size. There is a small mount version of these already - there shouldn't be a better one also in a small mount. Of course it's exactly those missiles that mods usually copy - and then crank the ammo up by a factor of 10. Edit: Going through the Codex I did come across the Bomb Bays again. I wish the AI could handle those. Or there were situations where they were really great (like attacking a static target like a Station). The concept is pretty neat. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2014 22:40
|
|
|
What are you arguing at this point? You could put anything against anything at equal FP cost, as long as one side has the capacity to mount more missiles per OP than other weapons, and it'd still prove that the issue exists. P. much literal proof in that video that missiles are the best weapon en masse no matter what kind - if you're minmaxing, and do not have any restrictions (such as those imposed by y'know the campaign) Also harpoons are bad at this. It's even worse with LRMs or rockets that have a friendly fire-less grace period. Another interesting thing it proves is how stupid the combat would be if ships could fire over other ships. Then range would be the absolute best stat, and it's already stupid good. DatonKallandor posted:Edit: Going through the Codex I did come across the Bomb Bays again. I wish the AI could handle those. Or there were situations where they were really great (like attacking a static target like a Station). The concept is pretty neat. I really wish the AI could do proper bombing runs if you put like max amount of bomb bays on a Lasher Deep Thought posted:I've been using a Pilum fleet (Achilles cruisers and Hammer frigates) in Uomoz and it is game-changing; it totally wipes the floor with AI fleets (helps to get them scouted out and distracted by fighters first), but having a load of glass cannon-y ships has obvious flaws. I wonder if anyone tried countering this type of fleet before it was declared unbeatable. The ultimate answer to missile swarms is the the brdy™ imaginos™ SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Oct 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:The ultimate answer to missile swarms is the the brdy™ imaginos™ Or the templar ships, the AI seems to be very good using that EMP wave.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 08:09
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:That's hardly a proper comparison. You're putting a spam fleet against another spam fleet. Just because Enforcers did good in the tourney doesn't mean they're the ultimate ship. An alpha striking fleet of cheap stuff with a couple of shots of big damage is pretty much the perfect counter to an all-capital ship fleet (especially Enforcers which excel at taking down stuff bigger than them, not smaller). Also there's no one-weapon-solution so just slapping as much Flak on there as possible isn't really going to work especially on single-ship spam. I mean, yea those are all things, but the only part of missiles that really matters is that while they have fuel they don't collide with your own ships. They're the only weapon that always perfectly scales with focus firing because they're not hindered by your own fleet getting in the way of each other's shots. Ammo/reload time/damage/whatever isn't necessarily going to change that, it's more of a "If you're going to spam a shitload of ships with missile mounts, missiles will always be OP" vs being under powered if they're used "normally" on a smaller number of ships.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 15:40
|
|
|
I really like this game every time i play. But I'm getting tired of saves constantly becoming unable to load. It happened when I played a year ago and it is happening now. I'm using the Uomoz' Sector mod pack. I can start new games, I can load new saved games. But at some point in the campaign (lvl 7 ish +) the save just refuses to load. Java crashes/Unable to load save error in-game. It's a semi high end computer, every game I play runs fine. Anyone else having trouble loading saves with Uomoz' Sector mod?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 14:49
|
|
|
Did you change the memory settings?
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 15:05
|
|
|
I did the "C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\bin\java" -Djava.library.path=native\windows -Xms1024m -Xmx1024m -Dcom.fs.starfarer.settings.paths.logs=. -Dcom.fs.starfarer.settings.paths.saves=..\saves -Dcom.fs.starfarer.settings.paths.screenshots=..\screenshots -Dcom.fs.starfarer.settings.paths.mods=..\mods -classpath janino.jar;commons-compiler.jar;commons-compiler-jdk.jar;starfarer.res.jar;starfarer.api.jar;starfarer_obf.jar;jogg-0.0.7.jar;jorbis-0.0.15.jar;json.jar;lwjgl.jar;lwjgl_util_applet.jar;jinput.jar;lwjgl_test.jar;log4j-1.2.9.jar;lwjgl_util.jar;fs.sound_obf.jar;fs.common_obf.jar;xstream-1.4.2.jar com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher copy paste edit, although I'm not sure i did it correctly because I can change random things in that and still launch the game fine. I also changed how much ram Java can allocate in the control panel but I haven't noticed any difference. Are there more things i can try? Edit: I read your link and it worked. Thanks! Pooned fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2014 16:18
|
|
|
So I bought this game last night, and after some key issues, it seems to be all sorted, and I'll get to try it out tonight. Having read the first 9 thread pages, hopefully I'll have a decent grasp on early tactics to get me going. Is it possible to get a quick, and concise summary of the intervening year between pages 9 and 40? Major changes, don't do this anymore, etc. I'll get around to reading all the intervening change logs before I try it, but I figure you guys know what's what.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 00:32
|
|
|
McGiggins posted:So I bought this game last night, and after some key issues, it seems to be all sorted, and I'll get to try it out tonight. Logistics are a little bit less messed up, and... that's about it. The first major patch since this thread was made is currently close to finished, though that could still mean we don't see it til the end of this year.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 02:05
|
|
|
So I've amassed a few ships, and I'm looking around at the options I can get at the Abandoned Station. I can leave ships there, but it costs me more to ditch them than it does to carry them around? Or does it mothball them, then repair them to service status and then cost less/not at all?
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 14:18
|
|
|
McGiggins posted:So I've amassed a few ships, and I'm looking around at the options I can get at the Abandoned Station. You horde ships and weapons there, no storage fees, to be retrieved when you need them. Ships hulls and CR only get repaired when they are in your fleet over time as you travel, or if you hit the repair button at a friendly/neutral station.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
Tanith posted:You horde ships and weapons there, no storage fees, to be retrieved when you need them. Ships hulls and CR only get repaired when they are in your fleet over time as you travel, or if you hit the repair button at a friendly/neutral station. Its really good if you're me and you try to make silly fleets that explode. Dying causes a... large loss in money and everything. On that note, I *really* recommend getting a hound with Unstable Injectors on it that never sees combat. Just in case you need to actually run from a fight. I don't think anything can actually catch it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 16:45
|
|
|
Are there any plans to include space stations in the combat section of the game? Because about the only thing that could make that better is if you could do it inside a stage from R-Type. Obviously I would have to fly a hound with an antimatter blaster in the front in that case.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Are there any plans to include space stations in the combat section of the game? I know that at least the total conversion mod "Vacuum" has stationfights, even though stations are basically enormous, deadly and slow brickships. quote:Obviously I would have to fly a hound with an antimatter blaster in the front in that case. Hounds can't fit energy weapons 
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 17:23
|
|
|
Zudgemud posted:I know that at least the total conversion mod "Vacuum" has stationfights, even though stations are basically enormous, deadly and slow brickships. Yeah I couldn't remember if they had a universal mount or not. Replace with another fast, small, fragile ship with energy mounts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 17:26
|
|
|
Zudgemud posted:I know that at least the total conversion mod "Vacuum" has stationfights, even though stations are basically enormous, deadly and slow brickships. This is an easy fix! I may/may have no edited all of the ships in the game to have universal slots at one point to see what it was like. This was around the same time I gave the main gun on the hound a 180 arc so I could see if they'd function as mobile flak cannons (they will not turn to shoot down missiles with their current hardpoint even with a flak gun).
|
|
#
?
Oct 17, 2014 17:44
|
|
|
So i installed the mod mentioned in the OP, and hot drat, that adds a lot. Seems to me that a lot of the functionality it adds should be folded into the core game. Anyways, I found a Hound blueprint, and I've been mass producing them, seeing as their resource requirements are almost nil. So far I've lost 30 of them in Hound-fleets, due to me not noticing the presence of a destroyer or other such tough nut.Still, crazy fun, been doing this for about 15 hours straight now, and I'm of the opinion it was well worth the  it cost.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 05:37
|
|
|
For an "early release" game this is really amazing, and I'm really looking forward to what kind of metagame gets added. The tactical stuff is awesome but it does get stale after a while.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 06:17
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:For an "early release" game this is really amazing, and I'm really looking forward to what kind of metagame gets added. The tactical stuff is awesome but it does get stale after a while. Next update that is probably coming soon will contain most things already in the Umoz mod, and the mods Exerelin, Vacuum and Ironclads all have station capture, which I remember being one of the goals in the final product in one form or another.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 06:31
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Yeah I couldn't remember if they had a universal mount or not. Replace with another fast, small, fragile ship with energy mounts. God of Fighter The mod itself is over two years old, which predates the massive skill and logistic system changes, but the download link still works: http://www.mediafire.com/download/8ia1sgv0ljvow26/FutaraDragon1.5F.rar
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 09:38
|
|
|
McGiggins posted:So i installed the mod mentioned in the OP, and hot drat, that adds a lot. Seems to me that a lot of the functionality it adds should be folded into the core game. Wait what? What mod is this? I played the hell out of starsector for a bit, then left it for a year and recently got back into it. I would like to build ships and catapult thousands of hounds at plunder fleets.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 11:25
|
|
|
scalded schlong posted:Wait what? What mod is this? I played the hell out of starsector for a bit, then left it for a year and recently got back into it. I would like to build ships and catapult thousands of hounds at plunder fleets. SHAOLIN FUCKFIEND posted:Uomoz' Sector - Huge campaign clusterfuck with mod factions This is the one I'm using, and it is, in essence, a compilation of other mods all fitted together. It is also the only OP-mentioned mod that is currently updated, I think. Also, since time of last post, I also found a Lasher blueprint. All I gotta do now is suck less, stockpile some supplies somehow and then I can take on a huge fleet or three. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 12:03
|
|
|
I just wish there was a way to get the improved skill trees from Starsector+ without all the extra ships, weapons and shaders.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
McGiggins posted:This is the one I'm using, and it is, in essence, a compilation of other mods all fitted together. It is also the only OP-mentioned mod that is currently updated, I think. Lashers are one of my favorite ships and the AI is pretty good at using them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:I just wish there was a way to get the improved skill trees from Starsector+ without all the extra ships, weapons and shaders. I'm actually trying to see if I can get that to work. Its just hung up currently trying to compile things that don't exist and I'm sorta realizing again that I am a horrible not-even amateur at this =P Taerkar posted:Lashers are one of my favorite ships and the AI is pretty good at using them. They're so good, especially when you first start the game. They're versatile, tough, and have enough small slots on them that you can customize them for pretty much anything.
|
|
#
?
Oct 18, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
I'm finding that, all of a sudden, the loot and supplies I get from a battle only just barely cover the expenses of fixing up afterwards, and sometimes not even then. Is there any way to nudge up the amount of supplies I get from a fight? Not but a huge amount, but even 1/3rd as much more would make it a little less tight.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 13:06
|
|
|
McGiggins posted:I'm finding that, all of a sudden, the loot and supplies I get from a battle only just barely cover the expenses of fixing up afterwards, and sometimes not even then. This will be addressed in the next patch, but the is little you can do about the supply bleed that large fleets suffer at the moment. For now all you can do is to only deploy the ships you need for every battle and consider benching ships that have a high CR deployment cost, as CR recovery is where most supplies end up going. Also don't pick up fights with small fleets as its not worth your time. If you are still playing uomoz then you should remember that only trade fleets carry a significant amount of supplies here, battle fleets will get you a lot of components, maybe some guns and schematics but not much else.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 13:40
|
|
|
All good points. I shall try a trade fleet then.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 14:14
|
|
|
On that note, when do I start to get Destroyer schematics? Right now I'm only getting frigates and fighters. I really want to start making bigger ships!
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
Pooned posted:On that note, when do I start to get Destroyer schematics? Right now I'm only getting frigates and fighters. I really want to start making bigger ships! When you start fighting destroyers. The schematics I believe are linked to the ships you destroy in battle, or at least the difficulty of the encounter.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 16:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 11:35 |
|
|
I've definitely got capital schematics from combat against non-capital ships so it may well just be a combo of encounter difficulty and the type of fleet you go up against.
|
|
#
?
Oct 19, 2014 17:21
|
|