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Dragonatrix posted:- The argument about distancing from Fathis would be a viable one considering that post was made with the potential incoming flip... if Fathis flipped scum. Since he flipped town, that argument doesn't quite hold as much ground. Distancing from someone who flips town is borderline suicide and would only work as an insane gambit if we had a reverse death miller for some bizarre reason, which we don't so... Distancing yourself from the flip is what I meant and thought was obvious? Like I was saying you were voting Fathis but distancing yourself from the vote by saying oh well, it probably won't even go through!' because then when Fathis flipped town you'd look way better. Dragonatrix posted:- This is a really minor thing, yes, but I feel the need to point out that since D3 started I haven't voted for anyone (and no one's voted FLuck at all yet today for that matter!) so I don't even know what you and Black are getting at there. That's not just twisting facts, that's making them up wholesale to best fit your narrative. I never said it was D3 though so I am confused about this point.
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Oct 24, 2014 00:18
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Fast Luck posted:One thing I thought interesting about Dragon was that I had a vote on him for I don't know how long, 2 rl days I think, and he just let it sit there without issue, but then once I moved my vote to Fathis, then he came at me with that big post. It's like he wanted to avoid an OMGUS accusation ("Oh my god, you suck" - a revenge vote against someone else putting a vote on you) so he bided his time until I changed my vote. Well, poo poo. I was thinking him voting Fast Luck was scummy because I feel like FLuck is town. But that's based on my general feeling of a non-Dragonatrix player, so take from it what you will.
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Oct 24, 2014 00:29
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The Carpet Shark posted:Dragonatrix has played under the radar really well, which is why I thought they weren't scum until recently when I knew they were scum. I didn't think there was enough to go off of with their posts, but that's just the thing! Scum won't be completely uninvested, they need to kill town off, but often they won't stick their necks out. Dragonatrix has conveniently voted for people at all the right points to seem inconspicuous. As much as I hate the very concept of a meta argument... that would have worked better here. Bear with me a sec, because this crazy seemingly self-sabotage has a point. Yes, I don't post overly often. Yes, that is by its very nature anti-town regardless of alignment. And yet, I've posted more in this game than usual! A better opening gambit would've been to point out that fact and use it to imply that I'm actively working to protect myself (which, appropriately enough, I sort of am now). But, hey, that's not the tact you went with so countering that one would be me doing something you proceeded to do and respond to something which does not exist. Also, if you think I really haven't stuck my neck out like a dumbass maybe you're not as good at looking over things as you think you are. Since it came up again already, there is absolutely no way to spin that post on Fluck in a "safe" manner, when basically the entire rest of the thread was already effectively convinced he was undoubtedly beyond the pale and definitively town. The Carpet Shark posted:Like this argument! It's really weak to say 'since everyone thinks Fathis is scum this disappearance that could normally be easily explained by a town player is probably a secret scum agenda'. Once again, this is not just twisting things its actively making them up. A spontaneous 2 day disappearance is, in no way, easily twistable into a town tactic. Very much the opposite regardless of reason; just peacing out like that without notice is very much anti-town and when it comes from someone who posts frequently beforehand they become conspicuous by their absence. But, hey, nice job putting words into my mouth anyway. ...And since you asked so nicely: The Carpet Shark posted:I never said it was D3 though so I am confused about this point. Okay, easy enough to clarify. The final point in your argument was that at the end of D2 I voted for Fathis whilst simultaneously distancing myself from it/him... and then later I switched to FLuck. The Carpet Shark posted:Here's Dragon's last vote on Fathis, early and safe and with the disclaimer 'It probably won't happen but oh well'. THIS is distancing, my friends. But, please, by all means, try and spin this to make it so you weren't trying to fabricate that I voted for Fluck sometime today.
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Oct 24, 2014 00:56
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Dragonatrix posted:Okay, easy enough to clarify. The final point in your argument was that at the end of D2 I voted for Fathis whilst simultaneously distancing myself from it/him... and then later I switched to FLuck. Ah, well you will notice I do not mention when you did these things, just the order, and that is in fact because I got the order switched around (I was looking at your post history in order to quote). Which I apologize for, it does indeed imply something disingenuous to how you were really posting. That's definitely my bad.
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Oct 24, 2014 01:31
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Dragonatrix posted:Once again, this is not just twisting things its actively making them up. A spontaneous 2 day disappearance is, in no way, easily twistable into a town tactic. Very much the opposite regardless of reason; just peacing out like that without notice is very much anti-town and when it comes from someone who posts frequently beforehand they become conspicuous by their absence. But, hey, nice job putting words into my mouth anyway. I really don't see disappearing for a few days as a scum tactic, we saw Allen Wren do it after getting fed up with the game and Fathis was in much the same position. I've disappeared at points and I know I'm town so I can easily see a town player not paying attention to the game for a while, whereas I feel like scum would have more reasons to post consistently. I also personally tend to focus on things said in-game instead of whether someone was gone for a while, which I feel is especially relevant to Fathis who was posting a lot when they were here (although admittedly not scum hunting, but that's also unrelated to someone being absent for a period of time). Fathis Munk posted:s'okay you dudes can go on lynching me if you feel like it I'm not sure I'll have a lot of free time on my hands in the next couple days anyways Fathis Munk posted:I know my saying "Hey dudes I'm town" is highly suspicious but at the moment I really just don't have the energy/time to sift through posts with my Sherlock Holmes hat on ^^^"I'm busy in real life" is something town players say all the time. I don't claim it's a town 'tactic' to disappear from a game for a while but I am saying that I don't buy arguments about how someone being away for a while makes them scummy. But the argument about absences that you were making was very easy to make at the time (when everyone was targeting that player). Since I think you were aware Fathis was town I feel like it would have been easy for you to go 'posting and then NOT posting? Scummy' but that such things don't actually reveal much at all.
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Oct 24, 2014 01:51
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I kinda suck because I'm letting my first game go to waste here but what are you gonna do, IRL comes first.
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Dragonatrix posted:But, please, by all means, try and spin this to make it so you weren't trying to fabricate that I voted for Fluck sometime today. I was correct about that being your final vote on Fathis, but I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to say you voted for Fast Luck today. I was arguing under the assumption those votes were on D2 and that your final vote was for Fast Luck. How does it make me look scummy that I got mixed up, and your actual final vote was for Fathis, the town player who was killed dead? Dragonatrix posted:Also, if you think I really haven't stuck my neck out like a dumbass maybe you're not as good at looking over things as you think you are. I like to think I'm good at looking at motivations and the context of actions but I frequently overlook things. My apologies, it looks like you did stick your neck out here. Bold move, scum. 
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Oct 24, 2014 02:11
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I'm really beginning to think our scum is sitting quietly letting us argue ourselves to death
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Oct 24, 2014 02:27
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Gabriel has suspected me, Fathis, Allen, Dragonatrix, Pez and Toaster (with some slight shady-eyes at Blacknyte). Fathis got lynched, Gabriel was night-killed (!) and Allen was just modkilled. I guess if we want to work off of Gabriel's posting that leaves me, Dragonatrix, Toaster and Pez. Obviously I'm not going to suspect myself. Dragonatrix defended themself well from Carpet Shark's (not great) accusation, but that doesn't mean much. Pez, however, has this gem: Pez posted:I'm sorry I haven't had much to say, but I have been voting the whole time. I just voted wrong and now I don't know what to do. I'm still leery of blacknyte but since I was wrong about Fathis now I'm second guessing myself. I can't tell if we're losing because the heavy posters are scum and pointing us wrong or they are lurkers and letting us kill ourselves which is coming across as overly panicky and dripping with concern. Hint: we're not losing. The entire town wins as a unit when we can get the scum. We have a 50/50 on getting a cop, which will nearly guarantee a townie win assuming they investigate right. Basically instead of scumhunting, you're just publicly fretting, and I don't like it. ##vote Pez
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Oct 24, 2014 03:01
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Epsilon Plus posted:which is coming across as overly panicky and dripping with concern. Hint: we're not losing. The entire town wins as a unit when we can get the scum. We have a 50/50 on getting a cop, which will nearly guarantee a townie win assuming they investigate right. Basically instead of scumhunting, you're just publicly fretting, and I don't like it. The cop can't outright say they are a cop or they'll get night-killed so they just have to rely on the town believing their reads THE TOWN MIGHT NOT BELIEVE THEIR READS THO
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Oct 24, 2014 03:07
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Towards the end of the game the Cop can publicly claim if they've marked one or two scum, guiding the town to (hopeful) victory. This relies on them claiming them and nobody counter-claiming, however, which gets more complex.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:09
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I don't know, I don't find that scummy because I feel kind of the same way. At this point I feel like I need to preface everything I say with "I'm apparently not too good at this so maybe I'm wrong, but..." Having four town die, btw, definitely feels like losing. If we have a cop we may have a shot. I'm not sure if Carpet Shark is alluding to something like that with their mystery reason for voting Dragonatrix, but I haven't picked up on anything like that. Also, chances of a cop are lower than 50%. Chances were 50%, but now 4 people have died with no cop, that's a smaller field of potential cops. as a townie feeling somewhat defeated, your optimism actually strikes me as kind of sketchy heh. but I'm apparently not too good at this so maybe I'm wrong
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Oct 24, 2014 03:10
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oops, new posts happened. that post i just made is in reply to this: Epsilon Plus posted:which is coming across as overly panicky and dripping with concern. Hint: we're not losing. The entire town wins as a unit when we can get the scum. We have a 50/50 on getting a cop, which will nearly guarantee a townie win assuming they investigate right. Basically instead of scumhunting, you're just publicly fretting, and I don't like it.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:10
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The Carpet Shark posted:The cop can't outright say they are a cop or they'll get night-killed
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Oct 24, 2014 03:11
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Epsilon Plus posted:which is coming across as overly panicky and dripping with concern. Hint: we're not losing. The entire town wins as a unit when we can get the scum. We have a 50/50 on getting a cop, which will nearly guarantee a townie win assuming they investigate right. Basically instead of scumhunting, you're just publicly fretting, and I don't like it. Actually, I'm seeing a reason to panic right now. Everyone who has died has been town. That's not good. It doesn't matter if we all win as a unit if we don't WIN. If scum wins we'll all lose as a unit and I'm not impressed with how we've been doing so far. And like I said, that thing about the cop is bad logic, the cop can figure out who's scum for sure but they can't make people vote that way because the only way to put some credibility behind their words is to cop-claim and that's SUPER DANGEROUS.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:12
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Fast Luck posted:ugh, this seems fake as h*ck, a real cop would never post like that wow, way to go
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Oct 24, 2014 03:12
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The Carpet Shark posted:wow, way to go  all around it, which is exactly why i dont believe it and find it scummy. im not outing you as cop im saying i dont think you're the cop. there's that post you just made, on top of your way-too-early "hey, hey, make sure you let me know in advance before voting me out, hey"
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Oct 24, 2014 03:14
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The Carpet Shark posted:And like I said, that thing about the cop is bad logic, the cop can figure out who's scum for sure but they can't make people vote that way because the only way to put some credibility behind their words is to cop-claim and that's SUPER DANGEROUS. Just because you're not following it doesn't mean it's bad logic. We currently have 9 players. Let's assume we have a cop. The cop has investigated every night and have confirmed one VT and one scum. Cop isn't lynched, night three comes, cop investigates and finds another scum. Cop now knows 2/3 scum and claims their role with their investigations. VT identified by cop backs up cop's call and votes scum. Only two are needed to hammer now out of a remaining 5 - not difficult if, for example, suspicion is already on a (cop-claimed) scum or if the cop has been breadcrumbing. If that player is lynched as scum, the town now knows the other scum investigation is valid - even if the cop dies the next night, the town can descend upon the other scum and then work on finding the remaining scum themselves. Basically if the cop claims with known scum, it's almost guaranteed to extent the game a day. Even if the cop hasn't found scum, stating that 3 players are town will probably cause them to engage a voting block of some kind, making finding scum somewhat easier. It is not perfect, but it is functional.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:20
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Epsilon Plus posted:Just because you're not following it doesn't mean it's bad logic. Alright, great, sounds good. I don't blame Pez for getting anxious though because it would be even better if we could actually manage to lynch some scum instead of relying on this scenario which could easily be derailed to carry us through.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:22
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and carpet, if you are the cop, my apologies, seriously, but i don't feel like i outed you. i feel like your all caps THE TOWN MIGHT NOT BELIEVE THEIR (the cop's) READS THO outed you 100% if you're town & cop. that went past soft claim territory into an outright firm claim posing as a soft claim. same with your earlier case against dragonatrix. hypothetically, let's say you investigated dragon during the night and got a scum result. why would you OPEN the new day with "dragonatrix is scum for reasons i cant tell you." why would you OPEN the day that way. like, im not saying you cant be a real cop but if you are that's gotta be the wrong way to open a case against someone, you ought to start with a regular case or some casual "isn't dragonatrix actually quite suspicious" thing and only pull out the sort of remark you made if no one believes you and the vote doesn't develop in that direction. you keep your info to yourself and leave breadcrumbs, so that if you do die and flip cop, people can look back at the breadcrumbs and then find who you copped as scum. writing in all caps TOWN PLEASE BELIEVE THE COP is, like, such a bizarre middle ground between claiming cop and not that it juts doens't work, for me.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:25
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but I'm apparently not too good at this so maybe I'm wrong. maybe you weren't even attempting to claim cop.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:28
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if your implication was that blacknyte was cop, ehhh, blacknyte has been anti-dragonatrix since D1, before there was ever a night phase to cop anyone.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:30
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so while my posting could be outing cops left and right here, i DONT think you two are cops. at all, and im posting to say yall are NOT cops. if i believed otherwise i wouldnt post these things.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:34
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Fast Luck posted:
FLuck you expect too much from someone new and bad. Anyway, I feel like I've royally screwed this game up but to focus on something unrelated to how garbage I am, Epsilon was weirding me out a bit too. I don't know, at least one of the lurkier people has got to be a scum. I think I'll re-read them at this point.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:56
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I'm sorry I feel like we're losing, I've never played before. It just seems that losing 3 of our team without outing a single scum is doing badly, if we are winning, my apologies.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:59
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Hehe, ehh, I don't blame anyone for making mistakes because I'm full of incorrect reads myself. The only thing I've been right about all game is that Allen, who quit, must be town. As far as epsilon goes, I've been liking their posting lately except for the thing I already pointed out: calling Pez out for feeling pessimistic. I think seeing four straight townies makes most town feel pessimistic and I think that read was kind of fake and scummy. Also the whole theory of why epsilon didn't post for the first five days (was lurking hard to hide, then got prodded by the mod).
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Oct 24, 2014 04:02
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We're not in a good position, especially not with Allen getting modkilled (I would much prefer if someone could have replaced in), but it's far from over. Basically, we have two more chances to find scum, today and tomorrow. We've only had two days so far so we're really only halfway - except we have more info to go on now and particularly if we can vote out scum today then we'll have a lot more to go on tomorrow. I don't have that much experience either but I think it's actually fairly unusual/lucky to hit scum D1 or 2. Also, what the hell Carpet Shark. That's the strangest soft/hard sorta-cop claim I've seen yet and I don't know what you're trying to achieve. If you're genuinely claiming then I'll unvote but I'm not even sure you're doing that.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:07
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Yeah, I really don't think we can say we're 'winning' in any sense, since we haven't caught a single scum.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:07
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Well we ain't gonna win poo poo unless ya'll calm down.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:11
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Epsilon Plus posted:Well we ain't gonna win poo poo unless ya'll calm down. lmao, fair enough
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Oct 24, 2014 04:17
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This is a really weird and dumb thing but we're just going round in circles right now anyway. And I'm pretty sure this isn't just because scum are sitting back and watching it. I think at least one of them is assisting with causing it!The Carpet Shark posted:Ah, well you will notice I do not mention when you did these things, just the order, and that is in fact because I got the order switched around (I was looking at your post history in order to quote). Which I apologize for, it does indeed imply something disingenuous to how you were really posting. That's definitely my bad. The Carpet Shark posted:I was correct about that being your final vote on Fathis, but I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to say you voted for Fast Luck today. I was arguing under the assumption those votes were on D2 and that your final vote was for Fast Luck. How does it make me look scummy that I got mixed up, and your actual final vote was for Fathis, the town player who was killed dead? Nice spontaneous backpedal y'got there. Not to mention that this time it comes complete with once again actively making stuff up to best fit your narrative. Note how you firstly admit to accidentally making a mistake because of your train of thought (something which is easy to do and in no way suspicious!)... only to immediately come back half an hour later with no one else posting in the interim to wildly change your story. And when you do so, you try to spin it in a way that just pointing out your mistake was somehow claiming you're scum. Which I very clearly never did; all I said on that matter was that your order of events was wrong, which you admitted to even, and asked you to clarify if that was what you actually believed happened. The mix-up doesn't look scummy. This, however, does! Especially when combined with the trying-way-too-hard cop claim not long after. I can't help but think from that, that you realised this was a good chance for scum to actually take action and attempt to come up with some lame justification and throw together a makeshift case on what you perceived to be an easy target. Combining this with today being our last chance to hit a scum before we enter LYLO, and it would be a good time now for scum to begin to get bold and go on the offensive. Especially one that has actually posted a decent amount beforehand... but only ever really given reads on people when asked a fair bit to do so. THAT is a good way to appear helpful but never actively scumhunt. ##vote Carpet Shark
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Oct 24, 2014 16:00
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I was thinking about the cop claim but not quite a cop claim thing and I was kicking around why someone would do that. My thought is that if we then listened to Carpet and bounced Dragon but Dragon was town, Carpet would still be able to plead that they didn't actually claim cop, and what they really meant was (explanation goes here). So it would be a way to get us to lynch a town player, to send us into LYLO, and to still have an out.
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Oct 24, 2014 16:04
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So the way I see it the two posibilities are either: A) Carpet Shark is a cop and saw Dragonatrix scum and he's doing a really poor job of subtly letting us know that or B) Carpet Shark is a scum and pretending to be a cop to get off Dragonatrix I'm leaning towards the latter right now because such an obvious YO GUYS PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE COP IS SAYING HINT HINT statement does not seem like something the cop would actually do.
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Oct 24, 2014 17:31
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Or C)they're both town and you're trying to push everyone into a choice of wrong votes
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Oct 24, 2014 17:49
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I am not a Cop.
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Oct 24, 2014 18:36
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Pez posted:Or C)they're both town and you're trying to push everyone into a choice of wrong votes
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Oct 24, 2014 19:53
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I'm pretty sure telling everyone you're a cop gets you killed
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Oct 24, 2014 23:31
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Well that all depends on what company ypu keep.
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Oct 24, 2014 23:52
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No, I mean rules forbid itquote:RULES
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Oct 24, 2014 23:56
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You can claim cop. You just can't quote your role PM, or act like you're quoting it.
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Oct 25, 2014 00:03
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 10:41 |
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Rules Clarification: Posting your role pm is different from claiming, which is allowed. That rule is in the standard rule set and is intended more for closed setup games where role pms aren't listed in the second post. Consider it null.
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Oct 25, 2014 00:04
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