Linux: vim isn't moe

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Linux: vim isn't moe

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

keyvin posted:

I finally figured it out guys. xwd -root | convert - shot.png in this black box with text took the screen shot.

what's that? it looks like windows.

if you have a choice in what to run, why would you run something that looks or acts like windows?

you'd be better off running something that looks and acts like lisa, or star, or beos

# ? Oct 29, 2014 07:00

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 17:34

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

pram posted:

because linux is always playing catch-up to the worlds most advanced operating system

true, it did take them an awfully long time to figure out threads

they implemented threads using fork(2)!!! lol

# ? Oct 29, 2014 07:02

KDE Perry: Dec 19, 2012; Grimey Drawer

keyvin posted:

pram took the rest so i guess i'm the nudes

# ? Oct 29, 2014 07:17

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

im the scrot taken 10 minutes prior

we may never know what secrets it contains

# ? Oct 29, 2014 07:27

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

am i the only one who finds env variables confusing, intimidating, and disgusting? i just dont like loving around with stuff that affect random processes randomly and i feel that poo poo should be in a config file. build systems are the loving worst in this regard.

was there ever any env-free os? or at least env-free build system?

# ? Oct 29, 2014 09:54

Tankakern: Jul 25, 2007

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

gtk2 is actively maintained

what? the last release was in 2011

# ? Oct 29, 2014 10:42

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

Tankakern posted:

what? the last release was in 2011

maybe it ain't broke

# ? Oct 29, 2014 11:10

ahmeni: May 1, 2005; It's one continuous form where hardware and software function in perfect unison, creating a new generation of iPhone that's better by any measure.; Grimey Drawer

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

am i the only one who finds env variables confusing, intimidating, and disgusting? i just dont like loving around with stuff that affect random processes randomly and i feel that poo poo should be in a config file. build systems are the loving worst in this regard.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 11:21

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

am i the only one who finds env variables confusing, intimidating, and disgusting? i just dont like loving around with stuff that affect random processes randomly and i feel that poo poo should be in a config file. build systems are the loving worst in this regard.

was there ever any env-free os? or at least env-free build system?

I never really thought about this but you're right. it's like the cursed power of global variables out of the programming world right into your operating system

# ? Oct 29, 2014 11:31

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

My programmer/engineer friend said I should install arch because I would understan d unix. I might do it because I installed an update and my GUI quit working. My friend said I should use vim to repair the xorg.conf file. I don't know what that is, and when I run VIM I have to reset my computer because I can't figure out how to quit. I am committed to running linux on the desktop because the installer wrote over windows and I don't know how to re-install it.

Edit:
My friend said that the gui dissapearing was because "systemd is terrible". He said I wouldn't have this problem if they kept things like they were in 1985.

SYSV Fanfic fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Oct 29, 2014

# ? Oct 29, 2014 13:53

compuserved: Mar 20, 2006; Nap Ghost

your post brings me little pleasure, keyvin

# ? Oct 29, 2014 14:00

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

compuserved posted:

your post brings me little pleasure, keyvin

I don't know if I am ready to run an operating system this advanced. Its like alien technology to me. So advanced its incomprehensible.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 14:10

Kiwi Ghost Chips: Feb 19, 2011; Start using the best desktop environment now!
Choose KDE!

keyvin posted:

My programmer/engineer friend said I should install arch

lmao

# ? Oct 29, 2014 15:00

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

I re-installed a stable distro. It fixed the GUI. How do I update the browser? I can't use the regular gmail interface because google says my browser version is too old to work right.

Edit: My video card is two years old, but the "kernel driver" does not fully support it yet. What does that mean?

# ? Oct 29, 2014 15:56

OldAlias: Nov 2, 2013

compuserved posted:

your post brings me little pleasure, keyvin

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:02

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

eschaton posted:

what's that? it looks like windows.

if you have a choice in what to run, why would you run something that looks or acts like windows?

because in the intervening 20 years no one has made something better?

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:03

Sniep: Mar 28, 2004; All I needed was that fatty blunt...

King of Breakfast

free kevin*

^{* With purchase of 2 kevins of equal or greater value}

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:03

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Tankakern posted:

what? the last release was in 2011

the last release was 19 days ago -- 2.24.25

that's right, they're on their 26th patchlevel of 2.24. because officially there will never be a 2.26.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:04

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

am i the only one who finds env variables confusing, intimidating, and disgusting? i just dont like loving around with stuff that affect random processes randomly and i feel that poo poo should be in a config file. build systems are the loving worst in this regard.

was there ever any env-free os? or at least env-free build system?

http://nixos.org/

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:06

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

keyvin posted:

I re-installed a stable distro. It fixed the GUI. How do I update the browser? I can't use the regular gmail interface because google says my browser version is too old to work right.

Edit: My video card is two years old, but the "kernel driver" does not fully support it yet. What does that mean?

call your operations team

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:06

Winkle-Daddy: Mar 10, 2007

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

call your operations team

make sure to tell them you checked the swap!!

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:16

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

call your operations team

I called them. They tried to remote into my home PC for about an hour before I told them I was running linux. They got pretty mad about it.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:21

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

With all these problems I think I am going to wait another year and see if Linux gets easier to use. I tried in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002,2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008,2009,2010,2011,2012,2013, and now 2014. I think they may get everything polished and usable on the desktop in 2015 though.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:23

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Mr Dog posted:

make it easier to replace bits and pieces of them 10 years down the line with whatever the latest hotness is that year.

tef dropped some serious loving wisdom in the pl thread that i think went tragically under-appreciated, which can be paraphrased as "don't design your software so that bits of it are easily re-usable, design your software so that bits of it are easily thrown away"

for example, if some other fashionable kernel supervision primitive comes along to replace cgroups, then in the fractured picture i painted above you only have to replace one chunk (the "runit+cgroups" chunk, which is still admittedly a fairly large chunk). but cgroups thread the core of systemd's being, you'd have to completely burn it to the ground and start anew before you can replace them with something better, and in the meantime people will say "well what's the big deal? systemd and cgroups have worked for me just fine for the last 10 years, and these scenarios you're presenting that expose cracks in the design and deficiencies in the model are just contrived edge cases that i can discount as not actually mattering in practice because *faaaaaaaaaart*, the design is actually perfect and cannot be improved upon in any way. ......... ok fine it's not perfect but it's like 90% perfect and fixing it isn't worth the hassle, don't fix what ain't broken" and drag their heels and propose frivolous General Resolutions for a tediously long time.

which is exactly what happened when systemd fought its bloody war of succession against upstart. and in ten years' time we're going to do it again.

Software evolves over time, and it doesn't have to evolve or replaced at the process level. The codebase of systemd is fairly well-structured. cgroups were removed? OK.

Throw out src/core/cgroup.c, and add something better. You're done. Well, if you want to be complete, also throw out src/cgroups-agent/ and src/shared/cgroup-util.c and src/test/test-cgroup-mask.c. But those are just utilities and services, and not part of core cgroup functionality.

The issue with doing it at the process level is that you've introduced complexity. In fact, you've introduced three processes. Does PID1 watch the rc process, does the rc process watch its children?

Over time, I think there's a common knowledge that the composition of software by multiple UNIX tools talking bytestreams over a pipe does not work for stable or robust systems of fairly large scales. What I think we have found is that composition of systems through C functions and libraries works a lot better, and is a lot easier to maintain.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 16:25

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Suspicious Dish posted:

The issue with doing it at the process level is that you've introduced complexity. In fact, you've introduced three processes. Does PID1 watch the rc process, does the rc process watch its children?

complexity is tolerable, as long as pid1 doesn't crash

the problem here is that systemd does crash, it is hard for normal schmucks like me to troubleshoot it at all

the last time i tried to get into single-user mode on my laptop i gave up and had to make a live usb key. systemd was just totally broken and there was no way for me to get the system booted enough to fix it

(i tried init=/bin/bash but gently caress doing pivot_root by hand, i forgot how unpleasant that is)

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:00

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

and please don't ask for a bug report

my fix was "apt-get remove --purge systemd"

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:01

PIGEOTO: Sep 11, 2007

Install more ram so you dont hit your swap haha

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:03

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

For reference, systemd has a crash handler that does a core dump and freezes PID1 so that it doesn't gently caress up your kernel.

If it didn't dump core, then something must have turned it off. Add systemd.core_dump=1 to your kernel cmdline to turn it back on.

If it's crashing during boot, that's more serious. You can have systemd spawn a crash shell with systemd.crash_shell=1 to help debug and inspect the system. If it's after boot, you can have it force a chvt with systemd.crash_vt=4 or so.

See:

http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.html
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Systemd_problems

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:04

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Also http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/ was updated.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:06

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

oh i got as far as a crash shell

but it had no job control, so it was also totally unusable

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:10

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

you're a systemd developer, so you work with it directly. it is in your best interest to troubleshoot it and work on it

for me, a linux desktop is a means to an end. a few years ago, i was just as happy hacking away on a solaris desktop. all i want to do is turn on my laptop and get to work

when systemd fucks up it's a barrier to accomplishing actual goals, not an opportunity to dig through man pages or analyze a core dump. needless to say sysvinit never crashed on boot, or failed to get into a single-user shell with job control

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:11

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Suspicious Dish posted:

Also http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/ was updated.

why the gently caress does everything on the internet have to be about gamergate

i neither know nor care about gamergate and intend to keep it that way

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:12

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

you're a systemd developer, so you work with it directly. it is in your best interest to troubleshoot it and work on it

for me, a linux desktop is a means to an end. a few years ago, i was just as happy hacking away on a solaris desktop. all i want to do is turn on my laptop and get to work

when systemd fucks up it's a barrier to accomplishing actual goals, not an opportunity to dig through man pages or analyze a core dump. needless to say sysvinit never crashed on boot, or failed to get into a single-user shell with job control

I'd love for systemd to automatically collect and report crash dumps so I could fix your problems. And there should be a core dump around that I could analyze. Of course the crash shell doesn't have job control: it's the emergency system that happens after the job control system failed to start up. Diagnostics and the journal should still be around.

The thing is that I've never seen your crash in the wild: I've only had systemd crash once, and that was in logind so systemd just restarted its own component, logged the crash, and went on its way.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:16

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Mr Dog posted:

why the gently caress does everything on the internet have to be about gamergate

i neither know nor care about gamergate and intend to keep it that way

Because "it's about ethics in gaming journalism" is very funny.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 17:16

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

Can someone please explain to me what Canonical hopes to accomplish with mir? What do they gain? AFAIK they don't actually have a hardware partner for tablets, and their phone kick starter failed. They are splitting development efforts from the other distros for a vapor product line.

To the person that wanted to know what desktop that was in my screen shot, it was Razor-qt. Lxde and Razor have merged (which is the first time I have heard of that happening) because they had the same design goals, and LXDE is moving to QT.

Also, I found this gem on canonical's website.

quote:

We provide hardware enablement services to the world�s biggest PC OEMs and,
as a result, Ubuntu is predicted to ship on almost 10% of the world�s new branded PCs by 2014. With a global team of specialists covering enablement and optimisation, we have the resources you need to deliver amazing Ubuntu tablets.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 18:41

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Canonical makes their money by taking their tech to other vendors and saying "hey, want this shiny UI on your phone? Well, it's under GPLv3, so just open-source the rest of your OS and you should be fine. Oh, you don't want to do that? Well, we own the copyrights too, so give us a call

"

They can't do this if they don't have control over their tech.

Turns out it's a trick that only works once, and they're running out of vendors to burn their bridges with.

# ? Oct 29, 2014 19:02

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

does canonical actually make money?

# ? Oct 29, 2014 19:05

Winkle-Daddy: Mar 10, 2007

Suspicious Dish posted:

Turns out it's a trick that only works once, and they're running out of vendors to burn their bridges with.

thank god

# ? Oct 29, 2014 19:05

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

does canonical actually make money?

amazon probably pays them for your Unity search history

# ? Oct 29, 2014 19:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 17:34

ShadowHawk: Jun 25, 2000; CERTIFIED PRE OWNED TESLA OWNER

keyvin posted:

My programmer/engineer friend said I should install arch because I would understan d unix. I might do it because I installed an update and my GUI quit working. My friend said I should use vim to repair the xorg.conf file. I don't know what that is, and when I run VIM I have to reset my computer because I can't figure out how to quit. I am committed to running linux on the desktop because the installer wrote over windows and I don't know how to re-install it.

Edit:
My friend said that the gui dissapearing was because "systemd is terrible". He said I wouldn't have this problem if they kept things like they were in 1985.

do not install deliberately difficult distros for "learning" or all you end up doing is learning poo poo that was fixed in real distributions years ago.

keyvin posted:

I re-installed a stable distro. It fixed the GUI. How do I update the browser? I can't use the regular gmail interface because google says my browser version is too old to work right.

Edit: My video card is two years old, but the "kernel driver" does not fully support it yet. What does that mean?

just install ubuntu already

# ? Oct 29, 2014 20:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Linux: vim isn't moe

«‹›1093 »