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ImpAtom posted:Making a character speak like Mr. T because he is black is honestly pretty racist. It also doesn't make any sense because nobody else from Barrett's hometown speaks like that. Like, at very least, if they'd had everyone from his town speak like Mr. T it might feel less like some translator went "wait, he's black? How do those black people talk?!" This doesn't mean that the translator believes that all black people talk that way though. There is a difference between thinking that "some of the black people I know and have seen talk like this" and "people talk this way because they are black". Point is, there is no way for us to know what the translator was thinking for sure but it is kinda wrong to immediately judge someone as racist without knowing these things. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 20:08
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Xavier434 posted:This doesn't mean that the translator believes that all black people talk that way though. There is a difference between recognizing that "some of the black people I know and have seen talk like this" and "people talk this way because they are black". Point is, there is no way for us to know what the translator was thinking for sure but it is kinda wrong to immediately judge someone as racist without knowing these things. There is no context without the Japanese script to translate Barret's dialogue that way. Within the actual context of the game it also doesn't make sense, as we visit Barret's hometown and talk to people from there and none of them have dialogue written that way. Even if the writer just went "some black people I know talk that way," it still means they made a decision to translate Barret's dialogue as 'black.' (Or, alternately, "he looks like Mr. T so I'll write him like Mr. T" which is a similar kind of problem.) It isn't racist in that they're going "man, I sure hate black people." It's that when deciding to translate the character they focused on "he is black" in a stereotypical way. It's probably entirely meant in a harmless way. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 20:12
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So you're saying someone should retranslate FF7 so that everyone in Barrett's home town talks like Mr. T.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:14
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Mega64 posted:So you're saying someone should retranslate FF7 so that everyone in Barrett's home town talks like Mr. T. "The Mr. T Translation Patch" would substantially improve FF7,
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Oct 29, 2014 20:16
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ImpAtom posted:There is no context without the Japanese script to translate Barret's dialogue that way. Within the actual context of the game it also doesn't make sense, as we visit Barret's hometown and talk to people from there and none of them have dialogue written that way. Even if the writer just went "some black people I know talk that way," it still means they made a decision to translate Barret's dialogue as 'black.' (Or, alternately, "he looks like Mr. T so I'll write him like Mr. T" which is a similar kind of problem.) Eh..I dunno. Recognizing fairly common traits about a race and deciding to applying them to a character you create in a story because they happen to be that race does not strike me as a problem. The fact is that races do often share common characteristics. I typically try to reserve the word "racist" for situations that apply actual harm. It is a pretty nasty thing to claim about someone so I do not use it lightly.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:17
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Isn't this like saying Woolsey hated people from the Middle Ages because he made Frog sound ridiculous even though no one else in his time spoke that way? Maybe it's just a thing the translator threw in to spice up the character. "Random accents" were a thing in dubs of the time so why not text translations?
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Oct 29, 2014 20:20
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Accents, how do they work in my JRPG's?
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Oct 29, 2014 20:23
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Xavier434 posted:Eh..I dunno. Recognizing fairly common traits about a race and deciding to applying them to a character you create in a story because they happen to be that race does not strike me as a problem. The fact is that races do often share common characteristics. I typically try to reserve the word "racist" for situations that apply actual harm. It is a pretty nasty thing to claim about someone so I do not use it lightly. The thing is that "certain races" don't have specific ways of speaking. Dialogue like that is the result of cultural and social context. Mr. T doesn't speak the way he does because he's black, he speaks the way he does because of the area he grew up in (and combined with natural exaggeration from acting, especially as his manner of speaking became an iconic part of who he was.) The fact that is connected to skin color tends to be the result of the economic and social divide across skin color, not because it's innate. Barret came from a poor-rear end mining town on the outskirts. It'd be easier to argue for him having a heavily rural accent than it would the one he has which is generally associated with inner-city life if you were trying to add a 'sensible' accent for flavor. NikkolasKing posted:Isn't this like saying Woolsey hated people from the Middle Ages because he made Frog sound ridiculous even though no one else in his time spoke that way? Woolsey chose the Frog accent because of a Ye Olde Stereotype, the same used for Cyan in FFVI. In the case of Frog it actually was just him applying a stereotype to a character in contradiction to the script, but there's a pretty big difference in the act of stereotyping between people from the middle ages and people of color.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:27
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Not everyone from the Middle Ages was a frog, only most of them.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:28
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They were rushed, but I liked the Final Fantasy VI and VII translation. They just have a certain charm to them.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:34
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Beef Waifu posted:Not everyone from the Middle Ages was a frog, only most of them. Now that's a terrible way to speak about the French.  Rirse posted:They were rushed, but I liked the Final Fantasy VI and VII translation. They just have a certain charm to them. FFVI's translation has problems but I think it's better than it gets credit for, especially under the constrains it had.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:38
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ImpAtom posted:"The Mr. T Translation Patch" would substantially improve FF7, We have reached mutual agreement on this issue.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:40
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ImpAtom posted:The thing is that "certain races" don't have specific ways of speaking. Dialogue like that is the result of cultural and social context. Mr. T doesn't speak the way he does because he's black, he speaks the way he does because of the area he grew up in (and combined with natural exaggeration from acting, especially as his manner of speaking became an iconic part of who he was.) The fact that is connected to skin color tends to be the result of the economic and social divide across skin color, not because it's innate. Fair enough but I still do not see any actual harm caused by this decision and like I said I do try to refrain from pulling the racist card unless it causes actual harm because it represents something terrible. Now that you got me thinking about it, tons of characters in tons of video games do not talk like we would expect them to based on where they come from. Other than personal preferences, I don't recall it ever being a real problem. The Frog example is pretty funny and a good point.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:41
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It can not do much harm and still be pretty problematic. I like Barret but he still goes into "Now don't he sound funny?" territory.
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Oct 29, 2014 20:57
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The GIG posted:It can not do much harm and still be pretty problematic. I like Barret but he still goes into "Now don't he sound funny?" territory. What kinds of problems did Barret's accent cause?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:05
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I noticed most re translation projects seem to get rid of the @#$* . Barret isn't a potty mouth sailor but I think he said "god drat" once.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:11
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Xavier434 posted:What kinds of problems did Barret's accent cause? It exacerbates a racial stereotype. It isn't like dropping n-bombs or anything but it perpetuates a stereotype which is often used in harmful ways. Firstborn posted:I noticed most re translation projects seem to get rid of the @#$* . Barret isn't a potty mouth sailor but I think he said "god drat" once. It's pretty silly to censor curses in a game with a plot point involving having an animal rape a woman, to be honest.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:18
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Xavier434 posted:What kinds of problems did Barret's accent cause? Mostly the common one of playing up AAEV for comedic purposes. It's common to all "Non Standard" accents and dialects but public perception of AAEV has never been all that good in the first place. It's not fun being worried that talking how I normally do will get me in trouble with my employer/instructor/whatever for trying to sound "Ghetto" or funny.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:19
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ImpAtom posted:It exacerbates a racial stereotype. It isn't like dropping n-bombs or anything but it perpetuates a stereotype which is often used in harmful ways. What if kupo is the final fantasy version of the n-word
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Oct 29, 2014 21:25
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He pretty much looks very much like Mr. T so I don't see a problem with him talking like Mr. T. And if it's just Barret that talks like that and not his hometown we can attribute it to the fact that he is unique in the way he speaks, much like Mr. T, thus making Barret awesome.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:27
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ImpAtom posted:It exacerbates a racial stereotype. It isn't like dropping n-bombs or anything but it perpetuates a stereotype which is often used in harmful ways. That doesn't mean that the existence of Barret's accent is causing other people to use this stereotype in harmful ways though. The stereotype in itself is harmless. If I am wrong then that would mean that the usage of any stereotype is harmful which seems ludicrous. We can't just go and censor all stereotypes because someone somewhere might choose to use it in ways that actually harm others. The problem is people who would use stereotypes in harmful ways. Not the content. Barret is fine. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 21:27
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Mr T patch should make everyone in the entire game talk like Mr. T imo
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Oct 29, 2014 21:27
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Help Im Alive posted:What if kupo is the final fantasy version of the n-word Tangential, but I loving hate the person at Square who decided that "kupo" should be pronounced as a word, rather than it standing for the sound moogles make.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:35
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ImpAtom posted:"The Mr. T Translation Patch" would substantially improve FF7, 
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Oct 29, 2014 21:36
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Help Im Alive posted:What if kupo is the final fantasy version of the n-word But Moogles use it all the time so it's okay for me to say it, right? 
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Oct 29, 2014 21:37
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Xavier434 posted:That doesn't mean that the existence of Barret's accent is causing other people to use this stereotype in harmful ways though. The stereotype in itself is harmless. If I am wrong then that would mean that the usage of any stereotype is harmful which seems ludicrous. We can't just go and censor all stereotypes because someone somewhere might choose to use it in ways that harm others. You can avoid using stereotypes unless they actually make sense. Giving a character a stereotypical accent because they are black (especially in a translation where there was nothing like that in the original work) is unnecessary and pointless. It's 'censorship' in that the translator changed the product and the argument is that they shouldn't have. "The problem is people, not the stereotypes" is just kinda silly though. Yes, of course the problem is people, but that doesn't change anything. We don't live in an ideal world. forbidden lesbian posted:Mr T patch should make everyone in the entire game talk like Mr. T imo See, someone gets it. Help Im Alive posted:What if kupo is the final fantasy version of the n-word Dear god. Mog is a monster.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:38
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Vichan posted:But Moogles use it all the time so it's okay for me to say it, right? kweh.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:39
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Real talk how many JRPG have black dudes that aren't Wesley Snipes, Ving Rhames, or Sitcom Dad? Not even mad at it, just wondering since those seem to be the go to for characterization.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:41
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Xavier434 posted:That doesn't mean that the existence of Barret's accent is causing other people to use this stereotype in harmful ways though. The stereotype in itself is harmless. If I am wrong then that would mean that the usage of any stereotype is harmful which seems ludicrous. We can't just go and censor all stereotypes because someone somewhere might choose to use it in ways that actually harm others. gently caress you!
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Oct 29, 2014 21:42
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The GIG posted:Real talk how many JRPG have black dudes that aren't Wesley Snipes, Ving Rhames, or Sitcom Dad? Well, how many JRPG's have black dudes in them period?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:42
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The GIG posted:Real talk how many JRPG have black dudes that aren't Wesley Snipes, Ving Rhames, or Sitcom Dad? It really depends. Suikoden has a couple, for example. Super Robot Wars has a few. There's a bunch as side characters in various games.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:43
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What is Sazh? A combination of Danny Glover and Sitcom Dad?
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Oct 29, 2014 21:53
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Beef Waifu posted:What is Sazh? A combination of Danny Glover and Sitcom Dad? He was one day away from comedy retirement.
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Oct 29, 2014 21:57
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ImpAtom posted:(Or, alternately, "he looks like Mr. T so I'll write him like Mr. T" which is a similar kind of problem.) I'm gonna have to very specifically disagree with this bit. Making a character sound like a specific celebrity who they look like is pretty much the definition of ok to do. But, I don't think he looks very much like Mr T so if it's only "he looks like MR T because he's black" then it circle back into being not ok. That aside, a lot of people in this thread don't get systematic social issues. It's a lot like that catcall video going around. A compliment is ok. But when a hundred people in a single day are making comments about a woman walking down the street many of which are rude, aggressive, or accompanied by creepy behavior then even the 'nice polite compliments' are actually part of a larger systematic social issue about how men in our society treat women.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:05
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0hVwfD_s-g This is kind of funny in parts. And relevant to "Mr. B".
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Oct 29, 2014 22:09
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ImpAtom posted:It's pretty silly to censor curses in a game with a plot point involving having an animal rape a woman, to be honest. That's Amerika for you.  Guns and murder are okay for kids, sure, but you better not let them see any boobs!Also wanton murder and rape are totally cool as long as you don't curse about it. Although now they even let you squeeze one "gently caress" into a PG-13 movie so that could be changing, slowly.  I've never heard more cursing in my life than on a middle/high school bus. Completely pointless.
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Oct 29, 2014 22:11
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Nevvy Z posted:I'm gonna have to very specifically disagree with this bit. Making a character sound like a specific celebrity who they look like is pretty much the definition of ok to do. But, I don't think he looks very much like Mr T so if it's only "he looks like MR T because he's black" then it circle back into being not ok. It's okay to do if he is a reference or such to a specific celebrity but it's a bit weird otherwise. (Especially since, as you said, there isn't much of a resemblance. Mr. T's got a lot of iconic features and Barret has almost none of 'em.)
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Oct 29, 2014 22:12
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ImpAtom posted:You can avoid using stereotypes unless they actually make sense. Giving a character a stereotypical accent because they are black (especially in a translation where there was nothing like that in the original work) is unnecessary and pointless. It's 'censorship' in that the translator changed the product and the argument is that they shouldn't have. I agree with some of this. However this is a video game. Nothing about it is necessary other than its entertainment value and Barret is considered very entertaining by many which is the point. Beyond that, you and I seem to disagree about how the existence of this s ort of content influences others. I have never seen any evidence suggesting that something like Barret's accent causes people to become racist and cause actual harm. Therefore its censorship would not reduce harmful racism either. However I do know that certain kinds of content does offend people and censoring it would make them feel better but that doesn't mean it would also help fix the core problem which is that racism unfortunately exists. I hate racism but changing the content is not going to change these kinds of people. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 22:14
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FF7 is very progressive because while the redneck beats his wife, the black guy is Mr.T, no one likes the Scottish one, the Asian one is a thief, one of the white women comes across as a total bimbo and the other plays you like a fiddle, the protagonist is a cross-dresser with both physical and mental disabilities which is pretty cool. Who cares about Vincent?
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Oct 29, 2014 22:20
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The GIG posted:Real talk how many JRPG have black dudes that aren't Wesley Snipes, Ving Rhames, or Sitcom Dad? Not even mad at it, just wondering since those seem to be the go to for characterization. Xavier434 posted:I agree with some of this. However this is a video game. Nothing about it is necessary other than its entertainment value and Barret is considered very entertaining by many which is the point. Media totally influences how people think and view things, dude, and arguing otherwise is kind of stupid. I mean, think about, say, what you think a mafioso would look like, what he'd act like, some basic personality traits. All of those things come from media, right? Anyway, the problem with FF7 isn't really that Barret talks like Mr. T, the problem is that there's two black guys in the game and one talks like Mr. T and the other says about five sentences total. Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 29, 2014 22:20
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