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I really don't think any attacker would have won with a map that big and things as chaotic as they were, the thing with CM is keeping up the command network is the number 1 thing that wins you games. The map should have been smaller and the difficulty should have been set much lower. That said, the russian side picked a really poor list. You basically had no room for error in terms of infantry and tanks, two to one in attacking just doesn't cut it generally. How do you take out those heavy machine guns? Lose a platoon and charge it with 2 more. Then do it again and again until you take the first town. Smoke the long range guns and tanks and gun the gauntlet with your own, because at the ranges you were trying to engage those big cats have all the advantages, russian tanks need to be under 1000 meters and even then you rush something with two tanks because you are going to lose one. Having 50% more stuff and the goons to command it would probably have been untenable, but it was necessary.
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Nov 1, 2014 04:39
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Fangz posted:Battalion commander's post mortem Pretty good points, though some of the bigger problems seem to have been caused more by errors, or just not understanding how some commands worked, on the order sheet rather than GH missing orders. Like losing the -152 that charged out alone due to it being the only one on actual "Move" orders. Flippycunt posted:They were supposed to push all at once but most of them used the hunt command so they all stopped as soon as anything fired near them, meanwhile the now deceased tank was using the move command so it ended up out there alone And to be fair, the most egregious mistake GH made was on the German side. That being him accidentally swapping two 75mm artillery pieces they had on their force org for two 75mm AT guns instead. That said, it seems to have interestingly enough turned out to not actually have been a negative and may have even been a net positive. So they ended up with less artillery support than they expected, but instead their barrage of fire, while not really capable of doing lethal damage itself, seemed to do a pretty good job of damaging equipment and rattling crews of the Soviet tanks in the north.
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Nov 1, 2014 04:39
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Hob_Gadling posted:Reading the German thread, I think it's probably a good idea to split the people who actually own the game 50/50 for the next battle. I spent most of the game with no idea whether I could actually see anything from the position I was going for. Totally agree here - this was very noticeable while I was observing the two threads. Ensuring 1-2 dudes with the game on both sides in a HQ position would be ideal because it would save folks from having to beg Grey for a Los check (which he won't do anyways) and also allows some testing of various maneuvers which was definitely a game changer at the end. The Panther charge out of the town probably would not have been as successful or even attempted, had Kenzie not verified that that the move would be somewhat safe from los of the southern soviet tanks. Of course even if you have the game, if your infantry/tank commanders orders are vague in any way, things can still go very badly in Grey's game no matter how well a simulated move may have panned out.
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Nov 1, 2014 04:53
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Bacarruda posted:Always nice to ruin someone's prophecy.  Omi-Polari posted:Soviet decision not to mass tanks was one of the biggest mistakes. They were eaten in manageable, bite-sized chunks instead of all attacking together in one big group. A lot of it seemed to do with communications and command issues, but having them all together in one big group simplifies things. "All tanks go here," etc. It's relatively inflexible, but that's because the Soviets are inflexible. Better to maximize that strength. Yeah, this game is about fire superiority more than anything else. It's more about weight and volume of fire than it is about accuracy or precision. The 'area fire' command can be extremely deadly. You can cause devastating losses to the enemy just by blindly throwing heavy fire into suspected positions. Your infantry will advance later and find tons of bodies lying around from units that you didn't even know were there. I was really afraid of the Soviets using area fire against us, pinning our infantry down before we had a chance to retreat. While tanks don't fire accurately on the move, having tanks shoot blindly into suspected enemy positions while charging forward en masse is something the real Soviets did very often and it works well in this game. Being accurate isn't important anyway. If the Soviets moved all of their tanks forward in a giant mass, they could have easily overpowered our few AT guns, and even the King Tiger would have eventually been disabled by the sheer volume of fire coming at it. Soviet infantry are kinda like glorified bodyguards for their tanks and artillery observers. The tanks and artillery smash and suppress the enemy with overwhelming firepower, while the infantry swarm in through the gaps created by that wall of firepower. The Soviets were too spread out and didn't have clear, simple objectives. I think massing armor is especially important for Soviet heavy tanks because of their extremely long reload times. Those things are like battleship guns with treads. They have to load a shell and a separate powder charge every time they fire. Massing them together means they can still put forth a great deal of firepower very quickly. As for the Germans, I think the biggest mistake I made was in loving up our initial ambushes. We could have done a LOT more damage than we actually did. I underestimated how difficult it would be to manage these ambushes in a forum game like this. Grey Hunter almost never zoomed down to ground level where we could actually see where our troops were supposed to be hidden. We couldn't tell which direction our guys were facing, how exposed they were, or anything. Some of our guys were spotted from much farther away than I would have thought. Some of our orders got confused, some units had target arcs and some didn't, and it didn't go nearly as well as I was expecting. My plan was to stay hidden as long as possible, lay down some close range ambushes using target arcs from 100m away or less before running like hell. Target arcs can be an essential part of this game. Try defending in a PBEM game against a decent player, or try playing some of the more difficult single player scenarios without using target arcs and you will get hosed. Our own use of target arcs didn't go so well though and some great potential ambushes were spoiled. Many of our units were scattered and disorganized during our retreat, and we took some heavy casualties early on. I applaud my platoon commanders Valiantman, Dark_Swordmaster, and Eigenstate for sticking with it right until the end and making the best of the situation. It paid off. Markus_cz did an excellent job managing my weapons platoon. I'm still amazed that those two lone HMGs commanded by Velius at the north farm actually held off such a massive enemy force and survived the whole game. I think the only casualty he took was a single ammo bearer. Despite the early setbacks and the lost Panther, we managed to adapt and started causing heavier and heavier losses to the Russians as time went on. I think we could have bled the Soviets dry if the game kept going and they started pushing deeper into the town. House to house fighting can be super bloody for an attacker, and we had good positions in defilade from the Soviet armor, lots of panzerschrecks, more infantry reserves and tank support for them to deal with. Ivan Shitskin fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 05:16
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I still really want to see the Soviet suicide-charge that they're proposing in their thread.
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Nov 1, 2014 05:22
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I just want to say thanks for everyone who participated in this, it was very entertaining for us here in the observer thread to watch the carnage and laugh.
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Nov 1, 2014 05:23
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Oh and the Soviet landmark names were definitely better than ours. 
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Nov 1, 2014 05:35
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And no, the Soviets never found out about our Tiger. True stealth tank.
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Nov 1, 2014 06:22
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Hob_Gadling posted:In short, I'd like you to reconsider and run another game. I had too much fun to stop here. If enough people are interested, I can run another game.
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Nov 1, 2014 06:29
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Thanks to everyone for making this game happen! I think I got really lucky with the command I had. There was some initial boredom when little was going on and it seemed we where at the farthest possible point from any of the expected action. But by the end we got to see some serious combat. That let me see how quickly losses can pile up when there are screwed-up orders and fog of war making it hard to follow. Hats off to my counterpart jng; we had a pretty nice little firefight down in the woods, and I think in the last turn we were both feeling worn out (though I think you won that one). When the company commander went brain-dead, so to speak (not a knock on anyone - our first had to step down, and the replacement never quite seemed to get a handle on things as it happened right when things turned south for us) I got to feel as if we were being left out to dry. I ended up trying to role-play that situation and decided to hold the line even when I knew we were likely to take serious losses, as it 'made sense' for the position I was in, and fit more or less what the other commanders were posting. This led to a fun moment, too -- late night popping into the strat doc and commiserating with Tehkeen (replacement leader of 2nd Plt, just north of us opposite Mingus[?]) over the rough time we were both facing in the 1st. Fortunately just as I might have felt my morale flagging, I did get to see how well things were faring in the north. Perhaps if the Russian tanks were making a mass charge into town and blasting away at our tanks, I wouldn't have been as interested in trying to preserve my men to fight later. I hope this does continue in some way, as even though it was frustrating at times it was tons of fun to play, and I'd like to let others have a chance at the experience.
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Nov 1, 2014 06:38
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Grey Hunter posted:If enough people are interested, I can run another game. I would be interested if it's not too much trouble. I noticed you were running multiple LPs at the same time which must be a hell of a lot of work.
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Nov 1, 2014 07:25
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Grey Hunter posted:If enough people are interested, I can run another game. Repeating myself here but I'm very interested in another game happening, I'm sure there are at least a few other people like me who'd love a chance to watch or participate after witnessing the last few battles.
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Nov 1, 2014 07:27
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Yeah, a suicide charge would be neat to watch. --- I'd like to play some scout cars or motorcycles! Kenzie posted:I would be interested if it's not too much trouble. I noticed you were running multiple LPs at the same time which must be a hell of a lot of work. He's always doing that. Grey is the Ozymandias of LPers. His comfort limit seems to be like 3-4 at a time, though goodness knows what he's theoretically capable of. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 07:57
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I'd be interested in seeing Barracuda give it a shake, to be honest. Two separate games might be interesting, too, especially if one is "Everyone" and the other is "PvP". Just never do giant maps or loads of forces again, cuz christ.
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Nov 1, 2014 07:57
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Thank you Grey Hunter for being a great sport, i'd definitely join the next game if you're willing to do another one. You people don't understand how upset i am that the game ended pretty much on the turn where my soldiers were about to do something. They crossed the entire twon to reach MacDonald farm and then the game ended 
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Nov 1, 2014 08:04
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Couldn't we have a really small map with 2 batallions on each side? Think of the glorious mess! You could lose troops and then some, just as long as everyone uses quick and dirty orders.
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Nov 1, 2014 08:18
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There, there, Mans, there there. I feel sorry for you too, HMGs should never cover the most miles.
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Nov 1, 2014 08:27
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Man, people were hilariously smug and condescending toward the German team in this thread earlier. The German loss of that first battle made them think it was a safe call to make, despite not having a clue about what was going on or how the game would turn out. My favorite thing is how people were expecting the northern Soviet forces to outflank and destroy us easily, yet those northern forces actually ended up slaughtered with absolutely nothing to show for it. They caused almost zero casualties among us. It was the exact opposite of what they were expecting.
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Nov 1, 2014 08:43
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XOing for fun and profit: I only signed up for this game because I though watching a repeat of the previous German shitshow would be less funny the second time around. I think the most important thing I did was try and make the command changeovers smoother. Trying to make sure everyone's questions were answered and making sure everyone was well informed was next priority. Assume good faith - no one taking part in these games is dumb and hopeless tactics usually come from inexperience. Anyone who reads LP (Sorry; 'Nofriendo Entertainment System', which cuts right to the bone  ) knows that computer explosions, internet outages and visits from the inlaws prevent people from participating all the time, and it doesn't make sense to lose people completely for those reasons. I tried to make sure that players of minor units weren't ignored when their posts got lost between the big tactical discussions, because those were the guys who eventually filled in the gaps.The hardest bit was often keeping my mouth shut when questionable moves were mooted, I tried to jump in only when someone had completely failed to appreciate some aspect of the game. Sometimes, what you think is 'wrong' can really surprise you (Leeroooy Panther being the prime example, I sighed inwardly and took a quick posting holiday when I saw that one.) I tried throughout to keep the admin stuff off the CO, so that when he did his couple of hours of posting he could discuss tactics, not command assignment and explaining mechanics, and I tried to make sure that orders were possible to interpret for Grey, they were far from perfect, but including a map as standard definitely helped.
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Nov 1, 2014 09:01
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Jaguars! posted:Leeroooy Panther Okay I'm being mean. 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 09:02
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If there's another game I'm definitely up for it. German team, obviously. Meanwhile: As Dublish said, he and I have been thinking about doing one of these where the turns are run by one person each (though blind may be difficult, we'd likely have to meet up in a middle ground thread like this one to make poo poo not explode) since it would allow a greater focus on a per-team basis, as well as some legitimate fog of war to even the "GM." That said, I don't want to step on Grey's toes while he's doing his battles. And while I don't have a whole lot going on time-wise, it was made obvious in the German thread this time around that a specific 24/48-hour deadline on the nosedot isn't always feasible for me. Honestly I'd thought about running our first one in CMSF as a blu-on-blu scenario as the US(MC?) assaults the British after a failed Scottish vote for Freedom in an attempt to liberate the oppressed.  That or run a completely (save the CO) n00b team of blu against an experienced Syrian team. The way the game works Syria will ALWAYS lose, but I'd love to see how a more knowledgeable team fairs against a less experienced team with nicer equipment.
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Nov 1, 2014 09:25
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I bought CM:BN because of this LP and would for sure sign up for the next thread and do tricky LoS stuff, would probs buy Red Thunder also.
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Nov 1, 2014 10:34
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Valiantman posted:And no, the Soviets never found out about our Tiger. True stealth tank. Unless you mean Soup Inspector's ride which did about as much but didn't capitalize on it! Jaguars! posted:I tried to make sure that players of minor units weren't ignored when their posts got lost between the big tactical discussions, because those were the guys who eventually filled in the gaps. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 10:35
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I think it's about time that Battlefront gave Grey a sack of  All those little italian dudes getting murdered by artillery  Only bad thing is that the game makes me wish for a proper French army, because these French tanks are hilarious (they come with Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 11:10
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Hob_Gadling posted:As usual I'm willing and eager to give critique about a given players performance (especially commanders). Since it's impolite to do so in public, ask me if you want an assessment. I'd like some critique (even if I did relatively little). But I don't have platinum, so I'd be fine with you just telling me here. Valiantman posted:And no, the Soviets never found out about our Tiger. True stealth tank. In my dreams I can see the Soviets running around like headless chickens when they find out the King Tiger isn't the only heavy tank the German goons have. Alas, it was not to be.   If nothing else, at least I know what my orders banner next game will be! Grey Hunter posted:If enough people are interested, I can run another game. Sure, but only if you think you can handle it. As some other guys pointed out, it sounded like it wasn't really fun for you any longer. But if you do run another game, German armour for life.
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Nov 1, 2014 13:02
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Soup Inspector posted:I'd like some critique (even if I did relatively little). But I don't have platinum, so I'd be fine with you just telling me here. I'm pretty sure the IS-2s are superior to the Tiger I in virtually every regard. Even the T-34-85s wouldn't struggle to penetrate it from the front, much less the sides. That's a big difference between the eastern and western front games, a Tiger is scary to a bunch of Shermans since they can't even penetrate with side hits reliably, but Soviet armor gives no fucks. With the slow turret rotation Tigers are really vulnerable to flanking action besides.
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Nov 1, 2014 13:58
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Soup Inspector posted:If nothing else, at least I know what my orders banner next game will be! I think Grey said in this thread that this will be the last one for a while, what with December fast approaching...
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Nov 1, 2014 14:16
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Velius posted:I'm pretty sure the IS-2s are superior to the Tiger I in virtually every regard. Even the T-34-85s wouldn't struggle to penetrate it from the front, much less the sides. That's a big difference between the eastern and western front games, a Tiger is scary to a bunch of Shermans since they can't even penetrate with side hits reliably, but Soviet armor gives no fucks. With the slow turret rotation Tigers are really vulnerable to flanking action besides. Yeah, the Tiger isn't the invincible murder machine that a lot of media portrays it as, but a man can dream... Arbite posted:I think Grey said in this thread that this will be the last one for a while, what with December fast approaching... That's why I'm not going to assume that a new game is going to be a given.
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Nov 1, 2014 14:26
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Arbite posted:I think Grey said in this thread that this will be the last one for a while, what with December fast approaching... At first I didn't get what he meant, but then December... and the 7th... 
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Nov 1, 2014 14:46
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My sweet summer child, winter is coming 
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Nov 1, 2014 16:11
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The bit that really killed morale for me was having to wait for 95% of the game, and the bits where I tried to do stuff I either did nothing OR command slapped me down for deviating from the plan to wait and do nothing.
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Nov 1, 2014 16:19
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Turns out you actually blew up two (maybe three?) houses full of Germans, FWIW. Casualties always look different from the other side. e: Really, the way to solve the "little to do" issue if this ever happens again is for command staff to be chosen first, conduct unit selection, and then recruit players. Sticking Germans with two MGs well behind the lines or a mortar unit that had zero chance to give independent orders was lovely. If you recruit to an OOB, you can give someone in an overwatch role a maneuver element to dick around with. Fewer players overall, but more involved, and hopefully, less of an atrophied playerbase. The Merry Marauder fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Nov 1, 2014 |
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Nov 1, 2014 16:22
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Yeah, I was kinda hosed from the start, setting up on a TRP. But it was fun!
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Nov 1, 2014 16:32
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To be honest, we had no idea anything was there until that truck got strafed. The planes were actually most useful as "put artillery here" markers. Those western TRPs were mostly meant to drop a smoke screen on.
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Nov 1, 2014 16:35
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The Merry Marauder posted:a mortar unit that had zero chance to give independent orders was lovely. I did get promoted to a platoon, though - albeit right as it was up poo poo creek. 
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Nov 1, 2014 16:39
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Commanding two sniper teams wasn't very much fun wither 
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Nov 1, 2014 17:36
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Soup Inspector posted:I'd like some critique (even if I did relatively little). But I don't have platinum, so I'd be fine with you just telling me here. If I were your company commander I'd like a few more "I want to X because Y" type of comments. Then again you were micromanaged from above pretty hard. It's detrimental for company commander to say "do exactly X" and reduce tank commander to saying "what he said". I find it better for CC to explain "I want this to happen" and leave the details to underlings. While micromanagement seems appealing every fight thus far has been decided by players getting bored, frustrated and dropping out. If you happen to get a micromanager as your CC in the next game, push back a little. It's easy to fall into repeating "yes, exactly that" for the entire fight, which makes your participation superfluous, which risks you getting bored and dropping out at exactly the wrong moment. It also wastes your potentially good ideas; after all, you spend more time staring at that one tank than anyone else. When you didn't receive direct orders from above you had to make some decisions for yourself, even if the actual order was just "Hold position". One example of chain of command working well. Bacarruda gives orders to your CC: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3658537&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=18#post434349339 Gradenko gives you leeway to do what you think best: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3658537&pagenumber=19&perpage=40#post434373063 You have to think it over and do what you belive is the best choice: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3658537&pagenumber=19&perpage=40#post434395752
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Nov 1, 2014 18:00
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Is it possible to buy units with insufficient arms and ammunition or horrible skill to simulate supply and manpower shortages?
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Nov 1, 2014 18:01
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You can set ammo levels and unit morale / experience / leadership / state in the map editor.
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Nov 1, 2014 18:02
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Hob_Gadling posted:If I were your company commander I'd like a few more "I want to X because Y" type of comments. Then again you were micromanaged from above pretty hard. It's detrimental for company commander to say "do exactly X" and reduce tank commander to saying "what he said". I find it better for CC to explain "I want this to happen" and leave the details to underlings. While micromanagement seems appealing every fight thus far has been decided by players getting bored, frustrated and dropping out. If you happen to get a micromanager as your CC in the next game, push back a little. It's easy to fall into repeating "yes, exactly that" for the entire fight, which makes your participation superfluous, which risks you getting bored and dropping out at exactly the wrong moment. It also wastes your potentially good ideas; after all, you spend more time staring at that one tank than anyone else. A fair enough critique, but in my CCs' defence I think I was lacking in initiative and tended to use advice from them as a security blanket rather than trying to tweak them to fit my own ideas of how things should go. I think I was perhaps skittish because of last game and some of my less than intelligent decision making.
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Nov 1, 2014 18:13
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