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DoctorWhat posted:so the Big Hero 6 Baymax twist is a straight-up ripoff of Mega Man Battle Network, huh? What? No. It's a metaphor sort of thing. He didn't literally upload himself into Baymax before he died.
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Nov 16, 2014 18:45
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Robindaybird posted:I remember interviews where Walt stated he thought Alice and Peter Pan were both highly unsympathetic characters. Well he's right about Peter Pan at least, in the book Peter is a loving rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 16, 2014 20:20
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raditts posted:Well he's right about Peter Pan at least, in the book Peter is a loving rear end in a top hat. Oh no doubt about it, and even in the Disney version he's self-centered and kind of a sadist. And I think Walt was referring to his Disney versions on why those movies didn't perform well (I know Alice didn't fare well until the 60s, dunno about Peter Pan).
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Nov 16, 2014 20:49
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Big Hero 6 is awesome. The story could've stood to have a bit more time for the secondary characters, because all four of them are cool and interesting characters, but the movie is primarily about Hiro and Baymax anyway so hopefully a sequel allows the other four to stand out a bit more. Honey Lemon is absolutely adorable. Also by far the biggest laugh out of me was Wasabi trying to cut a circular opening into the wall, and completely screwing it up right before completing it, then just hacking angrily at it til the wall opened up. No one else in the theater thought that joke was as funny as I did. edit: Oh yeah and the Feast animated short beforehand was cute  edit: I also didn't really think about it at the time, but the main 6 are pretty diverse. Two of them are asian (Hiro and Gogo), one is black (Wasabi), one is white (Fred), one is Latina (Honey Lemon) and then well Baymax is a robot. It's pretty awesome! Macaluso fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 01:22
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Macaluso posted:edit: I also didn't really think about it at the time, but the main 6 are pretty diverse. Two of them are asian (Hiro and Gogo), one is black (Wasabi), one is white (Fred), one is Latina (Honey Lemon) and then well Baymax is a robot. It's pretty awesome! Even slightly more diverse than that - Hiro and his brother are supposed to be biracial. I loved the movie.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:19
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Another one for the Big Hero 6 fan club here. The first hour was drat near perfect. After Baymax takes flight it does turn into something of a rote superhero movie, albeit a well-done one. I really loved the San Fransokyo setting- I didn't think Disney could ever come up with a sci-fi setting more conceptually appealing than Tron or prettier than the alien bits of Lilo & Stitch, but they really outdid themselves here. And yes, the Feast short was really loving adorable . Disney's definitely been on a roll lately.In other Disney news, The Wind Rises (which I've been itching to rewatch it ever since it left theaters) is finally getting its US Blu-ray release on Tuesday, along with a couple of other Miyazaki movies. Finally!
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Nov 17, 2014 03:34
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Macaluso posted:edit: I also didn't really think about it at the time, but the main 6 are pretty diverse. Two of them are asian (Hiro and Gogo), one is black (Wasabi), one is white (Fred), one is Latina (Honey Lemon) and then well Baymax is a robot. It's pretty awesome! Yeah, but one thing. That white character? He was Ainu in the comics. They're a group that's been brutally marginalized even in Japan, so that sucks.
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Nov 17, 2014 04:17
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Waffleman_ posted:Yeah, but one thing. That white character? He was Ainu in the comics. They're a group that's been brutally marginalized even in Japan, so that sucks. I have never heard of an Ainu before this moment. Also, I was told that the movie has almost nothing in common with the comics, is that not true?
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Nov 17, 2014 16:16
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They don't and thank god. The original is Asian fetishization to an absurd degree.
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Nov 17, 2014 17:18
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effectual posted:Like, it never even tries explaining why the villain wore a kabuki mask. What does it mean? Is it like a japanese version of death (re: Seventh Seal) or revenge or what? It looks more like a Noh mask so I think it is just visual short hand for him being deceptive and evil.
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Nov 17, 2014 17:29
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raditts posted:I have never heard of an Ainu before this moment. The original comics are T&A schlock with caricatured Asians. As for the Ainu it's a great enough achievement to get racial diversity within the US represented in an American movie IMO. Depicting racial issues outside of the US is something I can imagine American audiences not giving a single poo poo about, unfortunately
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Nov 17, 2014 18:53
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icantfindaname posted:The original comics are T&A schlock with caricatured Asians. Worked for Frozen, I guess.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:57
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computer parts posted:Worked for Frozen, I guess. Frozen got accused of culturally appropriating the Saami, so they're probably better off just whitewashing casts instead.
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Nov 18, 2014 01:15
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Pick posted:Frozen got accused of culturally appropriating the Saami, so they're probably better off just whitewashing casts instead. I can imagine a future where stretch and squash are earnestly described as politically problematic, and it is imminent.
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Nov 18, 2014 01:23
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I wonder whether someone like Po from Kung Fu Panda can be considered a character "with an ethnicity". Like, yes, he's a panda and he lives in China. But he's obviously played by Jack Black and his character is meant to evoke a (presumably white, but basically not Asian) Western fanboy of kung fu movies. The setting is ancient China but culturally everything may as well be America in terms of gender equality and social structure vs. something like Mulan. And now that I mention Mulan, we have Mushu as a character who's obviously coded as African-American despite being a Chinese dragon within the story. The examples go on: Genie from Aladdin uses a ton of stereotypically Jewish mannerisms despite being an Arabic djinn played by Robin Williams. We could go on for days about anime and its blond-haired blue-eyed Japanese people. Basically animation's relationship to ethnicity is...odd. I suspect it has something to do with Walt Disney wanting animation to be globally consumed but I don't really have any evidence to stand on there.
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Nov 18, 2014 02:31
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Bendigeidfran posted:I wonder whether someone like Po from Kung Fu Panda can be considered a character "with an ethnicity". Like, yes, he's a panda and he lives in China. But he's obviously played by Jack Black and his character is meant to evoke a (presumably white, but basically not Asian) Western fanboy of kung fu movies. The setting is ancient China but culturally everything may as well be America in terms of gender equality and social structure vs. something like Mulan. And now that I mention Mulan, we have Mushu as a character who's obviously coded as African-American despite being a Chinese dragon within the story. I think it's more that cartooning already engages heavily in caricature, and ethnic humor and pop culture references lend themselves particularly well to this. For instance, I don't think we're supposed to internalize that Mushu is, like, a quasi-Black man, so much that he's quasi-Eddie Murphy.
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Nov 18, 2014 03:36
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Macaluso posted:edit: I also didn't really think about it at the time, but the main 6 are pretty diverse. Two of them are asian (Hiro and Gogo), one is black (Wasabi), one is white (Fred), one is Latina (Honey Lemon) and then well Baymax is a robot. It's pretty awesome! I watched it twice and I never picked up on Honey being Latina. Third Murderer posted:Even slightly more diverse than that - Hiro and his brother are supposed to be biracial. This makes sense, seeing as his Aunt is pretty solidly white.
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Nov 18, 2014 04:10
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K. Waste posted:I think it's more that cartooning already engages heavily in caricature, and ethnic humor and pop culture references lend themselves particularly well to this. For instance, I don't think we're supposed to internalize that Mushu is, like, a quasi-Black man, so much that he's quasi-Eddie Murphy. I think it's just a general insensitivity to cultures not actually present within the US. The diversity portrayed in the films is diversity among minorities in the US, and it unfortunately disregards stuff like Arabic culture in Arabia and Chinese culture in China. Someone mentioned anime, in my experience it does the same thing with European fantasy inspired stuff, where theoretically it's medieval Europe, but the people in it are acting suspiciously like normal Japanese anime characters icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 04:23
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icantfindaname posted:I think it's just a general insensitivity to cultures not actually present within the US. The diversity portrayed in the films is diversity among minorities in the US, and it unfortunately disregards stuff like Arabic culture in Arabia and Chinese culture in China. European fantasy subgenre in anime is a fitting counterpoint to the cultural appropriation that takes place in American animation, but I think it also speaks to why "insensitivity" might not be the best word to describe it. Even if this isn't really your position, insensitivity to me implies a lack of intent and an unconscious apathy, and while this could certainly be said to be the case for works that conflate race with culture - i.e., though there are many different Latino or Asian cultures, they are portrayed generically/as monolithic - I think it undermines that... what we could call the 'neutralization' of the perspective within a narrative, is fairly banal and not really indicative of insensitivity so much as a sensitivity to a particular idea of what a 'neutral spectator' would be. Unfortunately, given that U.S. culture is majority white (though this is rapidly changing), here this tends to translate to the presentation of this neutral perspective as white American, with other racial and cultural influences treated at best assimilated and at worst as derogatory signifiers. Furthermore, this seems to reflect a conscious trend of storytellers away from the racist iconography of the past towards a neutrally coded body of works in which non-dominant perspectives, while rarely starring, are assimilated and, thus, in some sense legitimized. The Lion King is a great case study of this. Though it features a multiracial cast, it's not so much that the main cast is coded as European and the secondary cast as 'ethnic,' as it is that ethnic coding is treated as arbitrary: Mufasa, Rafiki, and the hyenas are relatively coded as ethnic; but Scar, Simba, and Timon & Pumbaa are relatively coded as European. The effect is of a neutralized, perhaps Westernized 'Africa,' one which is implicitly non-threatening to any specific group, and instead presents the moral sides that the characters take as of paramount importance. In Mulan, the case is similar, though more explicit because most of its characters are actual people and not just animals representing people: Essentially, most of the characters act ethnically Western, and Chinese culture is only emphasized as a visual signifier or - consistent with the themes of the film - as having repressive social connotations. On the other hand, criticizing this begs the question of whether we should accept this as an 'insensitive' commentary on Chinese culture, or, because it is so Westernized, as an implicit commentary on American culture.
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Nov 18, 2014 05:11
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wdarkk posted:I watched it twice and I never picked up on Honey being Latina. The only real hint in the movie that I noticed is the way she pronounces Hiro's name, but unfortunately the Latin pronunciation of Hiro is quite similar to the Japanese pronunciation of Hiro, so it doesn't really work. I thought she was just trying to pronounce his name "correctly."
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Nov 18, 2014 05:33
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K. Waste posted:I think it's more that cartooning already engages heavily in caricature, and ethnic humor and pop culture references lend themselves particularly well to this. For instance, I don't think we're supposed to internalize that Mushu is, like, a quasi-Black man, so much that he's quasi-Eddie Murphy. Well, Eddie Murphy is a black man. Mushu is funny precisely because he's a fast-talking 20th century black dude who has to deal with the harsh world of imperial China. Classic Disney comic relief (i.e Timon and Pumbaa, Sebastian, Genie, maybe King Louie and the minstrel crows) were basically contemporary sugar coating on stories that were otherwise tragic, surreal, or a bit tone-deaf in the present day. But the comic identities that they're presenting do the same thing in real life: self-deprecating Jewish/African-American humor or the put-on joy of blackface minstrels were originally defenses against an oppressive society that punished feelings of anger or pride. From that angle, characters like Timon or Mushu aren't 3-dimensional portrayals of people so much as sympathetic caricatures that are forced to deal with medieval bullshit instead of modern bullshit. And there's a lot of layers to this: on one hand, we identify with them because they share our perspective in a crazy magical world. But we can't identify with them too much or we'll reject the core story altogether and end up watching Shrek. Their continued disrespect they get in a fantastic setting parallels modern-day problems, but they're ultimately still sidekicks to the WASP-esque main characters. Though stuff like Lion King 1 1/2 helps with that problem retroactively. There are probably exceptions to this; I haven't watched the Disney canon in a long time. But there's definitely more to it than just "pop culture references". edit: did not see your post just then. Bendigeidfran fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 05:47
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Circutron posted:What? No. It's a metaphor sort of thing. He didn't literally upload himself into Baymax before he died. oh I hadn't seen it I was just going off an earlier spoiler that I misread. also trap sprung for remembering an obscure bit of video game ephemera I guess?
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Nov 18, 2014 06:08
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Bendigeidfran posted:From that angle, characters like Timon or Mushu aren't 3-dimensional portrayals of people so much as sympathetic caricatures that are forced to deal with medieval bullshit instead of modern bullshit. And there's a lot of layers to this: on one hand, we identify with them because they share our perspective in a crazy magical world. But we can't identify with them too much or we'll reject the core story altogether and end up watching Shrek. Their continued disrespect they get in a fantastic setting parallels modern-day problems, but they're ultimately still sidekicks to the WASP-esque main characters. Though stuff like Lion King 1 1/2 helps with that problem retroactively. See, I wouldn't go this far, because I think films like Shrek kind of undersell the whole comic-tragic appeal of these kinds of characters by giving them an ending in which they consequently get stripped of their agency to comment upon, mock, and criticize their reality. In Shrek, Donkey basically rides in on his Dragon-Bride and has Walt Disney eaten, but the outcome of this is that everyone forgets about nuance and dances to Smash Mouth. The underdogs have won, but now the underdogs are boring, and there's nowhere to go except to erect the Shrek franchise as its own stagnant, 'medieval' order. It turns out medieval society was a commentary on modern society, and modern society feels no less medieval. That's why it's possible for me to sympathize with the Crows of Dumbo even accepting that they are fairly explicitly Blackface minstrels meta-personified as rustic birds. They're actually quite mean-spirited towards Dumbo and Tim, and they only come to humor them in their endeavor to fly after hearing their tragic back story. Though they're essentially shucking-and-jiving stereotypes, they're also fully formed, three-dimensional characters with their own motivations whose primary influence on the film's narrative is to mock the very conceit of the film's climax, how Walt is going to just magically solve Dumbo's problems by having an elephant fly. Even 'the magic feather' has similar connotations in this regard - it's instrumental to getting Dumbo to overcome his fears, but it's just an emblem that the Crows have pulled out of thin air to push him over the edge. It's certainty of working is impertinent; they treat Dumbo like a human being because, ultimately, they're good birds. They mock him just like everyone else, but they also understand him in a way that even Tim doesn't. These characters are comic and tragic, but I don't see their ethnic signifiers as necessarily being that thing that exclusively renders them as such. I also find these characters compelling specifically because they embody both the comic and tragic aspects of human nature. Obviously, there's a problem in and of itself when these complicated figures - juxtaposed with the always more interesting villains in Disney films - exist solely to give meaning to the neutralized, sterile perspective of the 'WASP' protagonist. But if these same characters were triumphant, I would be suspicious, not because they're not neutral, safe figures, but because their triumph feels like the far more overt deception, which is that their is a triumph to, again, just getting everything you want and partying to Smash Mouth. Something is amiss.
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Nov 18, 2014 06:20
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Pick posted:They don't and thank god. The original is Asian fetishization to an absurd degree. Yeah, it's going to be a shock to anyone who likes the movie if they pick up the comics. Big Hero 6 was fun. I liked it as sort of a reverse HtTYD, where instead of taming a fearsome friend, Hiro has to make a tame friend more fearsome. I really liked the scene where Hiro removes Beymax's personality chip and turns him into a kill bot, and the team has to subdue him. I look forward to a sequel that gives more screen time to the team as a whole, and I'll be very happy if they decide to make the team focus more on the rescue side of superheroics. That stuff almost seems like an afterthought in most supers films.
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Nov 18, 2014 08:23
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There was this one part in BH6 where Baymax grabs Hiro to stop him from taking a long walk off a short pier, then he says something about waiting an hour after eating before swimming. In an earlier scene, Hiro got Baymax to get some vending machine gummy bears. It looked like a pretty big bag, too. I've just now made the connection that Hiro scarfed that motherfucker down while he was downloading karate, which is why Baymax stopped Hiro at the docks. There wasn't a whole lot of time elapsed between the scenes. Also Wasabi is my husband. Also also 
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Nov 18, 2014 18:18
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Here's a longer "trailer" (it's still basically just another teaser) for the new Peanuts movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmV3zGifOE
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Nov 18, 2014 20:11
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Macaluso posted:Here's a longer "trailer" (it's still basically just another teaser) for the new Peanuts movie: Wow, the animation looks really beautiful. I really hope they really do just do most of it in tableau shot but with just that added sense of depth. It actually has a kind of refreshing aesthetic feel that reminds me of stop motion. Speaking of which, maybe Wes Anderson should have done the new Peanuts movie. Also, Race for Your Life, Charlie Brown! and Bon Voyage, Charlie Brown (And Don't Come Back!!) are films I remember being good but I haven't seen in ages.
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Nov 18, 2014 20:17
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They've got the look down, we just need some story stuff now.
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Nov 18, 2014 20:19
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K. Waste posted:
I really enjoyed these, just because for me, some of the most exciting things to do as a kid was when you actually went on a trip or did something cool with a bunch of your friends. I felt like those two movies captured the spirit of being a kid and going on an adventure with your friends really well.
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Nov 18, 2014 21:15
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Saw Big Hero 6 the other day. Pretty decent movie even if it did drag a bit it the end. I was really unsatisfied with the reveal of the bad guy and his origin story with the daughter which felt tacked on and unnecessary, but that really neat looking scene where Hiro and Baymax enter the void kinda made up for it. I really think the movie would have benefited from a shorter or more subdued ending rather than another typical huge and drawn out superhero movie battle scene. The rest of the movie before the end was fantastic though. One thing I saw pointed out in the thread earlier that really cracked me up was that visual gag where Wasabi is trying to cut a circle in that door on the island, fucks it up, and has to retrace it. There were a lot of great gags in general in the movie.
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Nov 18, 2014 21:37
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Macaluso posted:Here's a longer "trailer" (it's still basically just another teaser) for the new Peanuts movie: Everything I've seen of this so far (which isn't much) seems to indicate that it'll sell extremely well ... I just hope it's got substance to it. Classic Peanuts - that is, 1960s-1970s era Peanuts - could get really merciless at some points. There are a few arcs where it felt like Schulz was just pushing Charlie Brown to the breaking point, and I think that lent it more credibility, because it didn't hold back how harsh the world could be. It also held up Charlie Brown as a character, because his dogged determination won out, even if he failed. Compare that to the TV series, where he's the butt of a joke at worst and an observer at best. He becomes less proactive as time goes on, and the cast gets filled with more one-note side characters. I know this will definitely be the lighter, general-audience, 1980s-onward version of the world, I just wonder if they would break out some of that older, crueler streak for the modern audience. I know kids today can take that kind of stuff, might as well capitalize on it.
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Nov 18, 2014 22:56
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John Liver posted:Everything I've seen of this so far (which isn't much) seems to indicate that it'll sell extremely well ... I just hope it's got substance to it. Classic Peanuts - that is, 1960s-1970s era Peanuts - could get really merciless at some points. There are a few arcs where it felt like Schulz was just pushing Charlie Brown to the breaking point, and I think that lent it more credibility, because it didn't hold back how harsh the world could be. It also held up Charlie Brown as a character, because his dogged determination won out, even if he failed. Compare that to the TV series, where he's the butt of a joke at worst and an observer at best. He becomes less proactive as time goes on, and the cast gets filled with more one-note side characters. If they have any wits at all, they'll just make the entire story be about the Big Game. It's the perfect place to stage a quintessential Peanuts tragedy, but still have it be funny. Charlie Brown will be confronted with Peppermint Patty and her overpowering team, and his friends who have given up any illusion of winning, and all the while they'll just mercilessly blame his poor leadership. It all ends with them losing and Charlie Brown going back home and taking a bath.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:04
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John Liver posted:Everything I've seen of this so far (which isn't much) seems to indicate that it'll sell extremely well ... I just hope it's got substance to it. Classic Peanuts - that is, 1960s-1970s era Peanuts - could get really merciless at some points. There are a few arcs where it felt like Schulz was just pushing Charlie Brown to the breaking point, and I think that lent it more credibility, because it didn't hold back how harsh the world could be. It also held up Charlie Brown as a character, because his dogged determination won out, even if he failed. Compare that to the TV series, where he's the butt of a joke at worst and an observer at best. He becomes less proactive as time goes on, and the cast gets filled with more one-note side characters. There was a TV series? I don't know if anyone can capture the "hey kids, the world is lovely, deal with it" aesthetic quite like Charles Schulz could. I once checked out a Peanuts book from the library as a kid that had some stories from Schulz about his life alongside some of the comics, and it became pretty clear that the comic was his way of dealing with some serious depression issues.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:14
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raditts posted:There was a TV series? And Christian guilt. That's another thing, the movie should literally end with Jesus Christ himself coming down to comfort Charlie Brown. I want more poo poo like the Buddha in The Tale of the Princess Kaguya in my cartoons for children.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:30
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Macaluso posted:Here's a longer "trailer" (it's still basically just another teaser) for the new Peanuts movie: If the soundtrack is not based around Vince Guaraldi's work I will be very disappointed 
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Nov 19, 2014 00:51
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Soylent Heliotrope posted:In other Disney news, The Wind Rises (which I've been itching to rewatch it ever since it left theaters) is finally getting its US Blu-ray release on Tuesday, along with a couple of other Miyazaki movies. Finally! Those couple of other Miyazaki movies are Kiki's Delivery Service and Princess Mononoke. Still waiting for them to release Spirited Away in Blu-Ray...
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Nov 19, 2014 00:59
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The Peanuts movie will be a longform tale of Charlie Brown and co.'s attempts at selling life-insurance.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:59
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raditts posted:There was a TV series? Yeah, it only had 18 episodes, and doesn't hold up very well. It's very dull for a kid's show, although not quite as bad as the other series about American history, which seems deliberately designed to put kids to sleep. Peanuts post-1985 is some of the most painfully vanilla garbage you will ever read. By that point Schulz was truly becoming an old man, as he was outclassed by Watterson and outsold by Davis. Everything past those years is so neutered, it's not even interesting anymore. He went the Family Circus route, recycling the same few jokes and peppering a few modern references as editors asked, but you can tell at a certain point his motor skills were starting to leave him, and he had to sleepwalk through it. But hey, we've got enough Peanuts in reruns to last us till 2048, so why not make the most of them...
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Nov 19, 2014 06:34
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I am a little disappointed the movie isn't just an adaptation of You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, because I would watch that in a heart beat.
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Nov 19, 2014 06:58
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Robindaybird posted:I remember interviews where Walt stated he thought Alice and Peter Pan were both highly unsympathetic characters. raditts posted:Well he's right about Peter Pan at least, in the book Peter is a loving rear end in a top hat. I disagree. In the book Peter Pan is sympathetic because the same thing that makes him unique also makes him tragic: he can never grow up. Now, in the Disney version ‘never growing up’ simply means ‘never ages’; but the book makes it obvious that in addition to not aging not growing up also means ‘incapable of making long term memories’. Other children do dumb poo poo and act like assholes all the time, but when they’re faced with the consequences of their actions they learn from their mistakes and change their behavior. Peter Pan, however, can’t do that. His memories only last for about a week (sometimes more, but not often and even then they’re fuzzy at best) so he’s incapable of remembering what happens when he makes a mistake or that people will get mad at him when he acts like a selfish jerk. Because he can’t remember the consequences of his behavior he can’t grow mentally from his experiences. Basically: The reason Peter Pan acts like a dick all the time is because he has severe dementia. Even if you don’t think he’s likable (which is understandable, his behavior is pretty terrible) you have to admit that an orphan with dementia is pretty sympathetic. Of course, like I said, the Disney version leaves his memory loss out of the story. Without that he goes from “rear end in a top hat child who’s incapable of change because being immortal has given him juvenile Alzheimer’s” to just plain “rear end in a top hat child”, so I understand why so many people dislike that version of the character.
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Nov 19, 2014 08:32
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