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Vi-keys really are the best. The only reason I don't use them is that I always get up/down mixed up whenever trying to use them, so I just play with numpad to avoid a stupid death to movement (which I promptly make up for with impatience).
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Nov 20, 2014 01:51
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Floodkiller posted:Vi-keys really are the best. Floodkiller posted:The only reason I don't use them is that I always get up/down mixed up whenever trying to use them, so I just play with numpad to avoid a stupid death to movement (which I promptly make up for with impatience). I am of the opinion that VI keys are awful unless you've been using them for 300 years, because the position of the key you press doesn't correspond at all with the direction you move and you're begging to make missteps. But upon reflection, that's a lovely opinion. I bet my game would improve if I went from numpad to vi, just like people going from arrow keys to numpad find out about the wild world of diagonals. Someone on the Dungeonmans steam forums got very mad at me when I chided them to drop WASD for movement and instead "use the numpad, like a professional." The outrage poured into the best negative review I've received yet. http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198125081234/recommended/288120/ Butthurt Hatermans posted:* On the subjective side, which is an important reason for me to to support a product or not:
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Nov 20, 2014 02:08
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These are the same people who vote EA as the worst US company. Also, I was just playing Doom RL real properly for the first time ever, had a nice burst chain cannon, super shotgun nano pack away from being nano shrapnel, loads of great gear and so on. Just killed the shamblers in deimos lab. And then windows decided that I've postponed restarting for long enough and that this has got to come to a stop. And naturally DoomRL's way of handling this is to wipe everything. I think I'm done with the game. SnowblindFatal fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 02:20
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madjackmcmad posted:the position of the key you press doesn't correspond at all with the direction you move and you're begging to make missteps
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Nov 20, 2014 03:03
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Bouchacha posted:does anyone have a good DoomRL control scheme for numpad use? Using the mouse seems paramount for fluidly controlling your character, especially if you want to blindfire with a shotgun. I just...use the defaults and never touch the mouse?  I'm not sure what you think is missing.SnowblindFatal posted:And naturally DoomRL's way of handling this is to wipe everything. Yeah, DoomRL doesn't do per-level checkpoints the way, say, Nethack does. There's a "crash recovery" setting, but all that does is enable a top-level exception handler that tries to write an emergency save if DoomRL itself crashes, i.e. it is completely worthless because what you actually want to protect against are power outages and stray SIGKILLs (and, when playing online, net connection outages). AFAICT the dev has zero interest in ever fixing this, and also has no interest in ever releasing the loving source code so other people can fix this (  ), so basically the only way to play DoomRL "safe" is to save-and-quit at every staircase and keep a manual backup of your save.
ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 03:06
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ToxicFrog posted:I just...use the defaults and never touch the mouse?
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Nov 20, 2014 03:48
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Bouchacha posted:It's much easier to aim with the mouse. Especially true when using the shotgun, because you don't necessarily want to hit right where a target is located. You can aim anywhere you want using the keyboard, too -- tab will cycle between targets, but you can use the movement keys to move the targeting cursor anywhere you want. It's probably slower than using a real mouse, but I mostly play DoomRL on a laptop and it's definitely faster than using a touchpad, at least for me.
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Nov 20, 2014 03:57
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I hate that you can only save on the stairs too because you can't just close out the game whenever. If I'm like killing time before leaving my house or work or whatever I basically have to stop playing way before I need because I might not have enough time to get through this next level and if I don't I've lost the entire run to bad time management. I got poo poo to do let me save whenever.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:06
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Bouchacha posted:It's much easier to aim with the mouse. Especially true when using the shotgun, because you don't necessarily want to hit right where a target is located. You are aware that you can freely target any tile by moving the cursor with whatever movement keys you use (VI, numpad, etc) after you press "F" the first time but before you hit it a second time to confirm, correct? I use it all the time to, for example, shoot an explosive barrel in the middle of an enemy group rather than blast a specific enemy. But you can just as easily shoot at an empty space the same way. EDIT: This is why you don't leave the tab open and always reload before you post.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:16
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madjackmcmad posted:At making people die all the time! But yeah people get real steamed up about things like joysticks and inverted mouse and WASD. I tend to pass on roguelikes that don't use HJKLYUBN out of the box, though.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:28
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RickVoid posted:You are aware that you can freely target any tile by moving the cursor with whatever movement keys you use (VI, numpad, etc) after you press "F" the first time but before you hit it a second time to confirm, correct? I use it all the time to, for example, shoot an explosive barrel in the middle of an enemy group rather than blast a specific enemy. But you can just as easily shoot at an empty space the same way. Yes, I'm well aware. If I'm using Excel, I'd much rather click the specific cell I want rather than navigate there using the numpad. DoomRL is the same.
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Nov 20, 2014 04:56
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Not sure if anyone in here is a Legend of Grimrock fan, but if you have the second game, there's a dude working on a LoG roguelike as an addon. It can be grabbed from the Steam workshop and played via LoG2. Grimrock Unlimited (The LoG games are nicely old-school in feel and Really loving Good, so if you don't have them, you're missing out.) So far I'm fairly impressed with GU. He's procedurally generating the dungeons and they feel very much like regular Grimrock dungeons. There's are options for game length/number of floors, and Grimrock itself has options upon starting a new game for random party or not, ironman/permadeath, and various other things, so you can go as hardcore as you wish.
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Nov 20, 2014 06:42
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Does GU have procedurally-generated puzzles of any sort, or is it just a monster crawl?
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Nov 20, 2014 14:44
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ProfessorProf posted:Does GU have procedurally-generated puzzles of any sort, or is it just a monster crawl? Yeah, in my opinion, combat is typically the low point of those games. I liked Grimrock, but towards the end it was mostly pure combat and it got pretty boring.
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Nov 20, 2014 15:18
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ProfessorProf posted:Does GU have procedurally-generated puzzles of any sort, or is it just a monster crawl? I only played a couple of short games, but so far I'm not seeing puzzles (other than find-key-open-chest) or secrets. I had fun but yeah, don't expect a lot of complexity.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:50
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The combat in grimrock 2 is massively improved from the first game, but it's really the puzzle design and exploration that help define it.
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Nov 20, 2014 18:37
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EvilMike posted:The combat in grimrock 2 is massively improved from the first game, but it's really the puzzle design and exploration that help define it. how so? i remember losing interest in grimrock 1 partway through because i felt like i had to kite everything and it wasn't very fun
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Nov 21, 2014 03:19
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Tollymain posted:how so? i remember losing interest in grimrock 1 partway through because i felt like i had to kite everything and it wasn't very fun That's part of the combat. I also didn't like constantly running away and sidestepping in a 2x2 room.
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Nov 21, 2014 03:41
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madjackmcmad posted:At making people die all the time! That review is hillarious. Specifically though, what about VI improves your gameplay? Just the...mechanical effort making you more thoughtful? Random Idea: Allow the user to institute command pauses. IE, allowing one command every 3 seconds to force thought in certain segments/areas.
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Nov 21, 2014 03:58
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Pladdicus posted:Random Idea: Allow the user to institute command pauses. IE, allowing one command every 3 seconds to force thought in certain segments/areas. Do the opposite: Add a rhythm component for the new Dancebattlemans class where you have to issue a command with every beat a la necrodancer or you take damage/die/lose all your swords.
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Nov 21, 2014 04:21
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Pladdicus posted:That review is hillarious. Specifically though, what about VI improves your gameplay? Just the...mechanical effort making you more thoughtful? I find it's the opposite, vi-keys allow me to play extremely quickly. I also think the hand position is much more comfortable than a numpad and i don't get any wrist fatigue when i play with vi.
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Nov 21, 2014 04:47
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Pladdicus posted:That review is hillarious. Specifically though, what about VI improves your gameplay? Just the...mechanical effort making you more thoughtful? I know in Dungeon Crawl, you can put lines in the .ini to force a --more-- prompt when certain lines of text appear. So, when something particularly bad, or particularly urgent happens, you're forced to take notice before moving on. I've definitely had use for it in the past, though the defaults are more acceptable now.
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Nov 21, 2014 04:59
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You know how typists teach you the home keys F and J? vi-navigation allows you to play roguelikes with that same position. That's the primary benefit and it's quite amazing once you take some time to get used to it.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:31
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Pladdicus posted:That review is hillarious. Specifically though, what about VI improves your gameplay? Just the...mechanical effort making you more thoughtful? As a side note, the vi-keys come from vi, a text editor that dates back to the 70s but is still great today. What sets vi apart as a text editor is that it's all ascii, all of the commands are triggered by single keystrokes (hjkl to move the cursor, i to insert text, o to open a new line, p to paste text, etc.), it has a steep learning curve but is extremely powerful once you learn how to use it, and most people have never heard of it. It's the roguelike of text editing and it's the best.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:33
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The main benefit of vi-keys is that your right hand is actually on the keyboard, so you can do stuff with it. For example, in Crawl autoexplore is on O and pray is on P. If you have your hand on the numpad, those keys are awkward and inconvenient to hit. With a vi-keys layout, your hand is on the home row of the keyboard so you can press those keys easily. On the other hand, I don't really care whether I use vi-keys or the numpad in doomRL, because there are no important keys on the right side of the keyboard. You pretty much just care about F, R, and your movement keys.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:38
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The vi keys only exist because a really old weird terminal keyboard painted arrow keys on the row of 4 letters. They have no inherent virtue.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:57
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Nintendo Kid posted:The vi keys only exist because a really old weird terminal keyboard painted arrow keys on the row of 4 letters. They have no inherent virtue. You tried to get used to them and you couldn't, huh?
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Nov 21, 2014 06:19
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doctorfrog posted:You tried to get used to them and you couldn't, huh? Keyboard layouts based on keyboards available since the Berlin Wall fell are superior.
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Nov 21, 2014 06:31
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korora posted:It's way faster because you're keeping your hands on the home row. Once you learn what the directions are you don't think about the letters and you also don't have to move your hand to open your inventory (or whatever else is on the right half of the keyboard) so you can really get into a groove. ex: in DCSS I have wasd and the buttons around it, aka QWE ASD ZXC bound for movement, so I have diagonals, my hands are on home row, and it's not a jarring transition between that and non-roguelike games which use wasd for movement.
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Nov 21, 2014 06:55
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Lookit all these scrubs who don't know how to use a good text editor I used to play Nethack with the numpad (and use arrow keys in vi), then I got a laptop and had to learn hjkl. I prefer it now, especially for Nethack where there's a lot of right hand keys in use.
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Nov 21, 2014 07:29
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When I bought a laptop last year every single one in the store had a numpad 
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Nov 21, 2014 12:32
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Sacrificial Toast posted:I know in Dungeon Crawl, you can put lines in the .ini to force a --more-- prompt when certain lines of text appear. So, when something particularly bad, or particularly urgent happens, you're forced to take notice before moving on. I've definitely had use for it in the past, though the defaults are more acceptable now. Yeah, I did that with necromutation when it was about to end, otherwise the game paid no attention to the whole thing. Only thing that could stop it normally was that you were hungry when you cast it, because then you became hungry when the spell ended. Autoexploring isn't fun when you turn into a normal weak piece of poo poo and two shadow fiends pop up on the same turn both casting torment on you.
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Nov 21, 2014 16:37
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IronicDongz posted:You don't need a weird control scheme where directions aren't in the corresponding places to have your hands on home row. With WADS, you don't need diagonal keys because you can combine two directions to move diagonally, plus you are (usually) separately changing your orientation with the mouse for even finer adjustments. You still don't need to do much reaching with your weaker fingers so everything works just fine. (Although I do find WADS to be more fatiguing because you have to keep your fingers closer together.) Your crazy scheme, on the other hand, makes my hand hurt just looking at it. The least common letters, Q and Z, are in the corners of the keyboard for a reason: because the corners of the keyboard are uncomfortable to reach to. Seriously just try the vi-keys for a while, your hand will thank me later.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:12
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Hello, Sproggiwood with full controller support & command rebinding! e: more fancy Unormal fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 01:43
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Unormal posted:Hello, Sproggiwood with full controller support & command rebinding! Yay! To my TV with you.
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Nov 22, 2014 02:28
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Jordan7hm posted:Yay! Should have a build up in a few days on beta branch with full support in the next few days; hopefully this weekend.
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Nov 22, 2014 02:53
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SnowblindFatal posted:Also, I was just playing Doom RL real properly for the first time ever, had a nice burst chain cannon, super shotgun nano pack away from being nano shrapnel, loads of great gear and so on. Just killed the shamblers in deimos lab. gently caress this godforsaken sadomasochistic genre. Please send help.
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Nov 22, 2014 21:57
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Anyone who wants to test out the controller support in Sproggiwood can put the password "sproggiwooddebug" into the Betas tab in Steam and use the "debug" branch. It's missing quite a bit of polish, but it should all be functional. The only screen that's not completely able to be controller-driven at this point is the Decorate mode (which is under more general construction). e: ...also now features full control rebinding and a couple small bug fixes. Unormal fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 22, 2014 |
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Nov 22, 2014 23:14
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korora posted:Having both hands on the main keyboard is not the same as being on home row. WADS and vi-keys are both great but they were developed for very different games that have very different needs. In roguelikes you only use one button at a time but you still usually have diagonal movement; the vi-keys are optimized around being able to reach most directions comfortably with the index finger (yuhjbn) and the other two directions have dedicated fingers so you don't have to reach much with your lesser digits. Do you play roguelikes with your hands on the keyboard as if you are going to touch-type? Personally I just rest a hand on whatever keys I'm using for movement and use my other hand for entering commands. My argument against the WASD as you'll likely have to rebind a bunch of commands such as Wield/Wear etc. depending on your roguelike.
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Nov 23, 2014 11:22
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chiefnewo posted:Do you play roguelikes with your hands on the keyboard as if you are going to touch-type? Personally I just rest a hand on whatever keys I'm using for movement and use my other hand for entering commands. My argument against the WASD as you'll likely have to rebind a bunch of commands such as Wield/Wear etc. depending on your roguelike. I do, but that's also a good reason to use vi-keys.
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Nov 23, 2014 18:13
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