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User-Friendly posted:He said they went there to have sex before, it's apparently not the most observant of places. If the serialpodcast subreddit is to be believed, Adnan is a perfect sociopath murderer. That might sound unreasonable, but some redditor dude's flair said he was Ph.D psychiatrist Muslim former prosecutor so we can trust him. It's funny how all the internet sleuths pick apart Adnan's every word for proof of lies when they are so credulous about unverified internet experts.
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Nov 21, 2014 06:35
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It was good to hear a longer segment of Adnan talking. Most of the time we only get snippets and they all make him sound weird. Even within the episode, there was a part (pretty sure it was later on and not in a lengthier context) where he kept nervously insisting he had nothing to do with her death. But we really can't tell just from that what questions he'd been asked, how he feels after years of going through similar things, or even what he knows about how the audience perceives him. I do wonder how much of this he lives constantly or whether the process of the show has dredged up memories of that time. I am glad to hear that they finally gave some acknowledgement to the victim's family but holy gently caress Sarah Koenig why did you hire a private investigator to try to get them to talk to you what the hell where you thinking. Did nobody working on this realize that you should never expect the family to be a part of it unless they really really wanted to? Maybe find some way to determine if that is in fact the case out of a sense of journalistic duty, but the amount of apparent effort sounds horrific.
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Nov 21, 2014 07:16
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Yeah when she was listing the ways they tried to contact Hae's family I was thinking "Jesus loving christ they don't want to talk, just leave them alone".
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Nov 21, 2014 07:43
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Watermelon City posted:If the serialpodcast subreddit is to be believed, Adnan is a perfect sociopath murderer. That might sound unreasonable, but some redditor dude's flair said he was Ph.D psychiatrist Muslim former prosecutor so we can trust him. It's funny how all the internet sleuths pick apart Adnan's every word for proof of lies when they are so credulous about unverified internet experts. I think they got most of their criminology knowledge from watching "Hannibal". (There was one "expert" postiing on reddit that was interesting, someone who had worked as a public defendant. He commented that almost everyone he had defended has some excuse, explanation or story as to why they weren't guilty. In that light, he said Adnan's inarticulate befuddlement was atypical. Subjective, but there you are.) The three revelations at the start of the latest episode? Certainly important, but the possibility of poor memory can't be ruled out. And what I'd really like is an answer to the question that's on everyone's mind: Asia? Aja? Ayesha? Which is it?
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Nov 21, 2014 10:32
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Kangra posted:I am glad to hear that they finally gave some acknowledgement to the victim's family but holy gently caress Sarah Koenig why did you hire a private investigator to try to get them to talk to you what the hell where you thinking. Did nobody working on this realize that you should never expect the family to be a part of it unless they really really wanted to? Maybe find some way to determine if that is in fact the case out of a sense of journalistic duty, but the amount of apparent effort sounds horrific. She's a journalist. Part of the deal with being a journalist is you end up having to talk to people when you know — because you're a human being who empathizes with people potentially dealing with the worst experiences of their lives — you should just leave them alone. It's not easy, it's not pleasant, and it may not even be right on a moral level, but it's what you're supposed to do. In that respect, pursuing the family makes perfect sense. Now, as to how that translates to a podcast? Ehhh. I don't blame her at all for trying hard to contact the family, but maybe the lengths she went to were a bit out of line.
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Nov 21, 2014 15:11
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There's something that cropped up on Rabia's blog today that is either a major factor in the case that is yet to be discussed on the podcast, or has been discredited and thus isn't mentioned. Here's a link if you want to check it out -- all the way at the bottom of Rabia's post: http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=266 And spoilered here in image form: 
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Nov 21, 2014 18:50
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Just binged through the series so far. I'm convinced Adnan had nothing to do with Hae's murder and it was either Jay who did it, or Jay had some drastically compelling reason to pin it on Adnan to protect someone else. Jay's multiple shifting stories are shady as hell, there's no definitive crime scene and absolutely no physical evidence tying Adnan to the murder (his palm print on the atlas in Hae's car was all the prosecution had?! That is ridiculously weak), and the last episode's extended convo with Adnan when he talked about what the day he heard Hae was murdered sealed the deal for me. Welp, my two cents. Remind me: who was that girl interviewed who was very distantly connected to all this who said in a repeated soundclip, "I think his name was...Adnan...???" When that first aired in context I laughed out loud at how fake that sounded.
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Nov 22, 2014 17:47
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outlier posted:I think they got most of their criminology knowledge from watching "Hannibal". One of the things I've heard a few times is that a guilty person will always have some explanation to try and exonerate themselves. An innocent person doesn't, because their reaction isn't "oh poo poo I gotta cover my rear end" it's "wait, whatthe gently caress are you talking about?", they can't understand why they're in trouble so they don't have an excuse handy.
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Nov 22, 2014 17:56
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outlier posted:And what I'd really like is an answer to the question that's on everyone's mind: Asia? Aja? Ayesha? Which is it? Just plain ol' Asia. Serialpodcast.org has a primer on everyone.
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Nov 22, 2014 18:25
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There are actually two different women with similar names. Asia is the one who saw Adnan at the library, and Aisha is Hae's friend who allegedly called him just before the cops did.
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Nov 22, 2014 20:53
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I just binged through the first 8 episodes of this (will listen to the newest tomorrow at work) and it's fascinating. At this point I honestly have no clue if he did it or not, but I can say that if this is the information that was presented to me as a jury member I'd say there is a reasonable doubt, and wouldn't be able to find him guilty. It's incredibly well put together, and super in depth. I see that they're raising funds for a second season, but I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. Like...what do you cover as a follow up to this? Another murder case? Something totally different?
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Nov 23, 2014 03:40
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TheJoker138 posted:I see that they're raising funds for a second season, but I'm honestly not sure how I feel about that. Like...what do you cover as a follow up to this? Another murder case? Something totally different? I'm all for something completely different but similarly mysterious. This American Life has done some fantastic investigations in the past and I would love to see something like that taken to the Serial level of detail. Wish they were more transparent about the amount of money being given and their target goal, but that's not going to stop me chipping in a few bucks. They've definitely earned it.
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Nov 23, 2014 05:24
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Someone posted on reddit that it was confirmed there would be a second season. Link
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Nov 23, 2014 05:37
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acetcx posted:Someone posted on reddit that it was confirmed there would be a second season. But it will be a different story, won't it? Anyways, I've listened to all the episodes over the past 10 days. I'm pretty sure Jay did, but I also think Adnan was involved. What I am having trouble with is how a jury found Adnan guilty "Beyond a reasonable doubt"
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Nov 23, 2014 09:47
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Pillowpants posted:But it will be a different story, won't it? Jay was what I thought too, right up until the episode focusing on him. At this point if I had to make a guess I'd say that it was some third party who we don't even know about, with Jay as an accessory setting up Adnan. Maybe someone who also knew the girl that received the call from his phone? The whole thing about them at Jay's friends house, with the woman insisting that Adnan was talking to someone on the phone about making up a story to cover for the murder doesn't sit right with me either, though. If that happened who's the third man in that situation? But man, maybe he just straight up did it, or Jay did it and Adnan helped, or any other number of situations. You're totally right about the reasonable doubt thing, there's too many questions here.
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Nov 23, 2014 10:50
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Jay has to have been involved in one form or another. That much is certain, because he was able to lead the police directly to Hae's car. I don't know if he killed her, but he very likely knows who did. I'm just not sure at all that it was Adnan.
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Nov 23, 2014 12:49
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It really sounds a LOT to me like Jay had more involvement than he said he did and that he cut a huge deal to give all his anti-Adnan testimony. I don't know who did it but his changing story and the hours(!!) of coaching he got before each interview is just insane.
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Nov 23, 2014 14:01
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Season two will be a completely different story/case (like True Detective  )
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Nov 23, 2014 16:10
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Actually it turns out adnan's cellmate was murdered under suspicious circumstances and after a questionable trial adnan recieved a second life sentence
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Nov 23, 2014 16:22
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CaptainJuan posted:Actually it turns out adnan's cellmate was murdered under suspicious circumstances and after a questionable trial adnan recieved a second life sentence I thought you were a hundred percent serious for a second. That would have been an epic twist.
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Nov 23, 2014 19:17
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CaptainJuan posted:Actually it turns out adnan's cellmate was murdered under suspicious circumstances and after a questionable trial adnan recieved a second life sentence Actually, Adnan is working at getting education for newer inmates. And while working with a new transfer he learns of a man that brags of killing Hae. Turns out the warden is corrupt and wants to keep Adnan around, which forces Adnan to dig his way out and travel to Mexico.
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Nov 23, 2014 20:35
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calandryll posted:Actually, Adnan is working at getting education for newer inmates. And while working with a new transfer he learns of a man that brags of killing Hae. Turns out the warden is corrupt and wants to keep Adnan around, which forces Adnan to dig his way out and travel to Mexico. Is this before of after the Death Race?
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Nov 23, 2014 21:46
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I really, really want Adnan to be innocent. It would be the perfect ending to this case. The only other satisfying outcome is if Adnan is presented with damning evidence and then confesses outright.
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Nov 23, 2014 22:14
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TheJoker138 posted:The whole thing about them at Jay's friends house, with the woman insisting that Adnan was talking to someone on the phone about making up a story to cover for the murder doesn't sit right with me either, though. If that happened who's the third man in that situation? This is brought up again in the most recent episode which you may not have listened to. I just finished binging through all the episodes so far and it's been a great listen. To be honest, the only thing I think we can say definitively is that Jay was involved - either with Adnan, with an unknown third party, or on his own. He knew where Hae's car was, and that's a 100% indicator that he has definite knowledge of what happened. It's not subjective, it's not coerced, or tweaked to fit with other things the police have said to him. To me, it 100% confirms Jay's involvement. I'm looking forward to hearing everything play out, but I've got a sinking feeling we'll never get a definite answer. At the moment my personal opinion is that Adnan probably did it and that Jay was much more involved than he lets on, maybe even to the point of assisting in the actual murder (not just disposing of the body). I have a feeling that Jay's story shifts around to keep his involvement minimised.
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Nov 24, 2014 01:41
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Pillowpants posted:What I am having trouble with is how a jury found Adnan guilty "Beyond a reasonable doubt" To some extent, I always suspected that juries were kind of a bogus institution -- anyone intelligent or with a scrap of intellectual capacity gets canned and what's left, after the legalistic sieving of potential jurors, is the dregs. That the jurors on Adnan's case spoke so frankly about him not testifying affecting their decision (despite being explicitly told not to), and the rapidity with which they reached their conclusion (two hours!?  ), is terrifying. Serial increasingly - for me - is a damning exposee on how fundamentally broken the legal system is, especially criminal court. I knew this going into the series, but it's been amplified tremendously. Regardless of personal feelings about Adnan's guilt or lack thereof, it's pretty harrowing that he's in jail for life + 30 years based on the evidence presented so far. For anyone interested in this kind of media, too, I strongly recommend reading Trial By Fire, a long-form New Yorker piece on Cameron Todd Willingham. It fundamentally changed my view of the death penalty and criminal justice system. Bitchkrieg fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 01:55
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Seeing as, according to the website, they're recording these as they come out, and we've had no news of Adnan from anywhere else, I don't think we're getting a conclusion to this. We are going to be left with just as many, if not more, questions than we started with, and it might take years and years for the Innocence Project to do anything with the case. I think that the main takeaway from it is going to be that we will never know what really happened, and that even so the justice system is still hosed up.
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Nov 24, 2014 05:51
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TheJoker138 posted:Seeing as, according to the website, they're recording these as they come out, and we've had no news of Adnan from anywhere else, I don't think we're getting a conclusion to this. We are going to be left with just as many, if not more, questions than we started with, and it might take years and years for the Innocence Project to do anything with the case. I think that the main takeaway from it is going to be that we will never know what really happened, and that even so the justice system is still hosed up. I think it's in the interest of the makers of Serial to follow-up on these cases if a conclusion comes in. This American Life certainly would if Serial doesn't.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:16
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Here's a really good write-up showing all the problems with (the prosecution's / Adnan's / Jay's / Jenn's) timelines: http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/s...jenn-and-cathy/ I'm pretty much in agreement with most people here, it seems: in my opinion, Adnan was definitely involved in some respect, and Jay likely more involved than he lets on. The biggest strikes against Adnan, subjectively speaking (i.e., not hard facts like timeline issues) are: 1) That he never tried paging Hae after she went missing (and I don't buy the "he was with people who were" excuse; if your ex-gf who you were still good friends with (as evidenced by her buying him a nice coat for Christmas just 3 weeks prior, and them talking as recently as the night before she went missing) went missing, you would absolutely be paging them non-stop. Just imagine if you got a call from the police that they were looking for a good friend of yours. The second you got off the phone you'd be calling (or, in this case, paging) them, and after not hearing from them all that night you'd be doing even more of it. Most of y'all are too young to remember pagers, but there was a whole series of de-facto codes and the fact that he didn't instantly page her with his number + 911 911 911 (emergency, call me back asap!) is incomprehensible to me. No one would behave in such a manner. 2) The fact that whenever he talks about Jay (at least, from what we've heard), he says things like "I don't remember it that way" or "That's weird, I wonder why he'd say that". That is CRAZY. Imagine if some guy you slightly know -- your weed dealer, or some guy at work you talk to on your coffee break / smoke break but don't really know -- told the police that you killed someone. You wouldn't say "I don't remember it that way" or "Huh, why is he saying that?", you'd be "What the gently caress is he talking about, he obviously knows about it, investigate him not me, he's trying to set me up!!" Obviously that's not hard, factual evidence ... but I can't comprehend of an innocent person with no knowledge of the case behaving in the above manner. With everyone's story contradicted in some way by the timeline, cell records, etc, it becomes a matter of which stories you choose to believe. I certainly think there's reasonable doubt here -- I could easily imagine a scenario where Jay was the killer (and that link above certainly provides a compelling argument for such), where it happened pretty much as Jay said, or even more outrageous theories: say, Adnan and/or Jay owed a drug dealer large amounts of money, Hae was killed to send a message -- this would explain #1 and 2 above, and also why he seemed despondent / freaked out at Cathy's place later that night; he knew she was dead or kidnapped or something, and knew there was nothing he could do about it. It would also explain his reaction when her body was found: disbelief, denial, immediately calling the police to confirm, magical thinking ("She can't be dead because her name was written in (someone, can't remember who)'s day planner"). This last scenario is hard to accept just for pure outlandishness, but it would explain a lot: Jay is worried he'll get named so he fingers Adnan, Adnan's family is threatened if he comes forward with the truth so he can do no more than maintain his innocence, etc. Again, I don't think it's a likely scenario, but one that is on the verge of plausability, covers all contingencies (weird timeline, reactions that day and afterward, and even allows for Asia's account to be accurate) and would be enough, had it been presented at trial, to perhaps provide reasonable doubt. e: Also, this is the first NPR show I've ever donated to. Even if there isn't a second season or it doesn't live up to season 1, no other podcast has so enthralled and (if it's not too tasteless a phrase, given the circumstances) fascinated me. Hope y'all are doing the same  e2: And at this point, I don't think there will or can be a satisfactory explanation. I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there is one person who knows more than they're saying (Jay), and quite sure that there are 2 more in the same category (Adnan, Jenn). Without their full disclosure, I feel like the protagonist in Jose Saramago's "All the Names" -- stuck trying to comprehend an endless, bottomless mystery that there simply IS no answer for. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 21:55
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Also, what are the theories on who made the initial tip-off call to police? Jay is the obvious suspect, of course. Sarah says she has theories but none she can "responsibly" share or some such. Would love for her to hint at who she thinks it is.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:05
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regulargonzalez posted:Here's a really good write-up showing all the problems with (the prosecution's / Adnan's / Jay's / Jenn's) timelines: http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/s...jenn-and-cathy/ It's a pretty decent listing, but it takes a special kind of crazy to have your reasoning be "Jay called Jenn at 12:47. 12:47 is after noon. Ergo, Jay was never at Jenn's house that afternoon, as he claimed." Something that did come to me on skimming that list. I think it's practically undeniable that Hae was at least abducted, and likely killed, between 2 and 4 pm (and most likely in the middle of that period). If Jay was the murderer, Jenn is lying to cover him. And yet Jenn says that Jay's call to her about Patrick would not have happened as he described it, which is kind of odd if you're lying for someone. Admittedly, the case is full of details like that one. It's probably why a lot of theories for Jay involve a mysterious third party. I am also curious about the bit posted earlier from Rabia about Hae wanting to confront Jay, as it's the only suggestion that Adnan would have expected Jay to be at the school before track practice. It seems as if he was trying to get a ride somewhere, either with Hae or Jay, but later forgot/dropped it.
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Nov 25, 2014 00:44
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Kangra posted:And yet Jenn says that Jay's call to her about Patrick would not have happened as he described it, which is kind of odd if you're lying for someone. ] Without more info, it's tough to glean anything from that. Assuming for a moment that Jay is guilty of whatever and Jenn is helping him cover it up, it could easily be that they didn't talk about that detail beforehand and the cops say something to Jenn like "And is it true that Jay called you to find out where Patrick is?" -- she could think that was some kind of trap to catch her / Jay in a lie and so denied it (irrespective of whether it happened or not). Or maybe it did happen this one time for whatever reason and she forgot. It's just tough to know how much to make of this discrepancy without more information.
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Nov 25, 2014 01:16
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Has any defender of Adnan been able to explain why, on the afternoon of Hae's disappearance, a) his cellphone pinged a tower from Leakin Park and b) it was used to call Asia, a girl who he had been dating and that Jay had never met?
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Nov 25, 2014 01:28
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Shitshow posted:Has any defender of Adnan been able to explain why, on the afternoon of Hae's disappearance, a) his cellphone pinged a tower from Leakin Park and b) it was used to call Asia, a girl who he had been dating and that Jay had never met? I'm not a defender of Adnan (at the moment I'm leaning towards he and Jay did it), but: a) there's a lot of reasons why cellphones ping the towers that they do, and only one of those reasons is that "this tower is closest". Radio waves can bounce in very odd ways off of buildings, terrain, even the atmosphere. Even the way particular towers are oriented could mean that your phone connects to a tower that it isn't physically very close to. And as the experts they consulted said, it "probably" means he was near the tower, but it's not really beyond a reasonable doubt that he was there. It certainly isn't a slam dunk. b) I think this is what Sarah Koenig calls the Nisha (Neesha?) call, right? The one at 3:36 or something, when Adnan was supposedly at track practice. His explanation is a butt-dial and answering machine, though Nisha testified that her house never had an answering machine so it's iffy at best. But then again, she also said it was both Jay and Adnan who called her, and said she should come by the video store where Jay worked - except he didn't start working there until weeks after the murder, so she's pretty clearly remembering a different conversation (or at least conflating two different ones). But yeah alibi-wise, there isn't really a satisfactory explanation for this call.
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Nov 25, 2014 01:47
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Shitshow posted:Has any defender of Adnan been able to explain why... b) it was used to call Asia, a girl who he had been dating and that Jay had never met? Nisha, not Asia. I think the leading theory among Adnan defenders is butt-dial, which honestly raises more questions than it answers.
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Nov 25, 2014 04:37
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Shitshow posted:Has any defender of Adnan been able to explain why, on the afternoon of Hae's disappearance, a) his cellphone pinged a tower from Leakin Park and b) it was used to call [Nisha], a girl who he had been dating and that Jay had never met? Here's Adnan's most ardent defender's take on it: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/splitthemoon/2014/10/serial-episode-6-the-worst-of-it/ (scroll down to the bolded Nisha heading) Though, when she lists the possibilities, she neglects one scenario that would make Nisha's story still fit and allow for Adnan to have called her: Nisha's memory is incorrect about the date that both Adnan and Jay talked to her on the phone, but regardless Adnan did call her on the 13th. Jay's memory would also have to be faulty, however, given that he said he talked to Nisha as well that day. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 06:12
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This is amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzk9aC1qh1o
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Nov 25, 2014 21:33
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Sarah Koenig, Alex Bloomberg and Ira Glass all have the exact same diction. I blame Torey Malatia .
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Nov 25, 2014 22:50
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I don't really get the Pumpkin Spice Latte craze aspect of Serial, nor the resulting backlash. I've read the SJW articles decrying a white reporter talking about ethnic people, and the responses, responses-to-responses, etc. What I don't understand is: why can't people just LIKE something anymore? Why does everything have to become A THING THAT EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION ON. There's actually very little to discuss about this show outside of the show itself - Rabia's blogs have been pretty uninteresting after the first few, most of the information from the court documents has been in the program already, the reddit discussion is just an opinion circle jerk because NOBODY has any new information. So - I know Serial is a good podcast, why do people have to ruin it by trying to make it into something else?
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Nov 26, 2014 06:47
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bad day posted:I don't really get the Pumpkin Spice Latte craze aspect of Serial, nor the resulting backlash. I've read the SJW articles decrying a white reporter talking about ethnic people, and the responses, responses-to-responses, etc. People have always had opinions on everything, but the internet lets them express them more openly. Stop reading things about it if you don't want to know peoples opinions on it.
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Nov 26, 2014 07:05
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bad day posted:I don't really get the Pumpkin Spice Latte craze aspect of Serial, nor the resulting backlash. I've read the SJW articles decrying a white reporter talking about ethnic people, and the responses, responses-to-responses, etc. All they're doing is discussing it in a cultural context, like any kind of media for the last however long. People have always had an opinion on poo poo, its just that you're suddenly aware of it and you've decided that it's bad for some reason
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