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Lazlo Nibble posted:
How far away from central Illinois are you? I have a PDP-11 with an RX02 drive, so in theory I could image those disks. I'd just have to plug everything in and make sure it all still works.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 00:07 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 07:52 |
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Pastey posted:It's kind of funny to think that even with all the methods of data storage invented in the last 40 years or so, paper is still the only thing that we know for sure will still be here hundreds of years from now and retain it's data. Assuming it's stored correctly of course.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 00:38 |
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Antifreeze Head posted:I always considered that one of the "deeper" hidden jokes in ReBoot that Hexadecimal's pet was named Scuzzy. wow that has to be the most complicated texture in the entire show. look at all those lil dots.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 01:12 |
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HEY GAL posted:International standard for microfilm is 500 years. Yeah but microfilm is the devil's own invention.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 06:14 |
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HEY GAL posted:International standard for microfilm is 500 years. I did not know this! Is microfilm considered a different beast from microfiche? I ask because I'm old enough to remember libraries back in the day having issues with certain sections of their microfiche catalogs that were often referred to going "halloween" on them. Stuff like VE-day, the moon landing, Watergate, etc. would eventually start to have their black areas go to a weird, sickly orange or purple hue over time and use. Though I guess any estimated lifespan for recorded media assumes it's simply being stored and not used. The bulbs on those old microfiche readers put out a crap-ton of light and heat. Couldn't be good for the film.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 08:20 |
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Antifreeze Head posted:I always considered that one of the "deeper" hidden jokes in ReBoot that Hexadecimal's pet was named Scuzzy. or that Hexadecimal wore masks
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 08:35 |
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As a kid, the Scuzzy/SCSI thing is the only joke I really got on Reboot because my dad had gotten this bomb-rear end family computer and was talking about all the features. I think it was when I got a gameboy and saw "dot matrix" above the screen that it clicked and I realized every loving thing in that show is some technology pun.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 11:08 |
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cobalt impurity posted:As a kid, the Scuzzy/SCSI thing is the only joke I really got on Reboot because my dad had gotten this bomb-rear end family computer and was talking about all the features. Oddly, Enzo wasn't. It was a placeholder name that just kind of stuck around. And Cecil (the thing in the diner) is both some old programming language but also apparently the name of a strip club around where ReBoot was made. I've spent a little too much time reading the ReBoot wiki recently...
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 14:48 |
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Pastey posted:Is microfilm considered a different beast from microfiche? Kind of like what CDs are to DVDs. Microfiche is a sheet whereas microfilm is a strip of film on a reel. There's actually still a market for microfilm, as government record keeping standards require it. Not as the primary means of storage, but because once exposed and processed microfilm is extremely difficult to modify so it provides a tamper-proof backup that can be accessed if the digital copy's authenticity is questioned. Back when I worked for FujiFilm I was trained on a microfilm exposer they released in 2008 - it was basically a LED array, two mirrors set at opposing 45 degree angles and a pair of lenses and film drive mechanisms in a chassis the size of a large mini refrigerator.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 16:24 |
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Antifreeze Head posted:Oddly, Enzo wasn't. It was a placeholder name that just kind of stuck around. And Cecil (the thing in the diner) is both some old programming language but also apparently the name of a strip club around where ReBoot was made. I feel like it's oddly appropriate for me to chime in.
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 19:59 |
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In case any of you ReBoot fans had not heard, ReBoot is getting a Reboot
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 20:14 |
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Lowen SoDium posted:In case any of you ReBoot fans had not heard, ReBoot is getting a Reboot Yeah, but I am reaaaalllly sort of hesitant on the whole thing. I really like ReBoot, it had a lot of good story, but I'm just really not too sure how well it's going to work today. quote:. He also said the focus is on making the show marketable for younger audiences (that means more like the kid-friendly first two seasons of the original and less like the darker later seasons) YEP. Gonna suck. Johnny Aztec has a new favorite as of 23:01 on Nov 28, 2014 |
# ? Nov 28, 2014 22:58 |
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I hate it when my cartoons are immature
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# ? Nov 28, 2014 23:44 |
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Pastey posted:It's kind of funny to think that even with all the methods of data storage invented in the last 40 years or so, paper is still the only thing that we know for sure will still be here hundreds of years from now and retain it's data. Assuming it's stored correctly of course. I don't know if this is a brilliant idea, a dumb idea, or something that is both simultaneously, but: M-Disc. What tells us about e.g. Egypt? poo poo carved into stone. So use your DVD/BD burner laser to engrave a stone disc. Lifetime estimates for other writable optical media estimate that this thing will last about 1000 years. Compatible BR drives start at like $50, and if you built recently, there's a moderate chance your DVD drive you chose at random is compatible.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 00:19 |
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Pastey posted:... Your write up about different types of storage methods reminds me of an old NYT's story about the DoD's use of old cobol programs and paper transcription between different areas of the Department because they had so much time invested in cobol based programs. They attempted a really expensive overhaul using a modern programming language but bailed on it when it became overly expensive(which is laughable in its own right). I think John Oliver's(maybe Stewart) show covered a bit about it as well where vets were being screwed over due to loss of papers or other issues going from one area in the department to another due to the need to transcribe from computer to paper to another computer in a different area of the department. Its wild to think that paper copies of documents are still a staple to major government agencies and corporations and is unlikely to stop any time soon. onemanlan has a new favorite as of 00:56 on Nov 29, 2014 |
# ? Nov 29, 2014 00:52 |
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Also when you're storing your valuable information on paper you run into the danger of it getting eaten by mice or bugs or something.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 01:13 |
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Factory Factory posted:I don't know if this is a brilliant idea, a dumb idea, or something that is both simultaneously, but: M-Disc. What tells us about e.g. Egypt? poo poo carved into stone. So use your DVD/BD burner laser to engrave a stone disc. Woah, now that's what I was askin' about. I've never heard of this before! According to the Wikipedia article about them ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC ), they are "more durable" than conventional CD-R/DVD-rs, but I followed the first reference link accredited to the "Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division". Quoting from this report in the last paragraph of the second page summary, "None of the Millenniata media suffered any data degradation at all. Every other brand tested showed large increases in data errors after the stress period. Many of the discs were so damaged that they could not be recognized as DVDs by the disc analyzer." Wowza. Sweet stuff if it's not all hype.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 07:05 |
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Pastey posted:Paper - stored in a constant temperature/humidity environment - indefinite This does depend on the type of paper you're using. Some of the 19th paper from when we switched to wood-pulp instead of using rags is disintegrating because of the high acidity.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 10:31 |
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Pastey posted:Wowza. Sweet stuff if it's not all hype. Eh, looks like a bunch of hype to me. They're marketing it as if each disc is made of stone, but it looks like they're really just regular discs made from a more durable plastic. "Unlike other storage mediums, M-Disc has a rock-like layer that permanently engraves your data in stone." It can't be both "rock-like" and literally be stone. And I don't know how the technology can be "proven for 1,000 years" if commercially-produced compact discs have only been around since the early 1980s. I guess good job to the marketing team for being aggressive, but I think it would be more honest to say "Look, we took regular media and made it stronger so your data will be preserved for longer!"
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 14:59 |
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Sorry guys, paper is obsolete!
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 15:16 |
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GOTTA STAY FAI posted:Eh, looks like a bunch of hype to me. They're marketing it as if each disc is made of stone, but it looks like they're really just regular discs made from a more durable plastic. Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something. And you prove something will last longer by doing testing at elevated temperature and humidity (and probably intense light for this stuff). It's the accepted testing paradigm for basically everything (and scientifically valid, for complicated reasons)
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 16:05 |
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Slanderer posted:Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something. And you prove something will last longer by doing testing at elevated temperature and humidity (and probably intense light for this stuff). It's the accepted testing paradigm for basically everything (and scientifically valid, for complicated reasons) Note that having a different structure at the data layer is how commercially pressed disks already work. They only real improvement claimed is using something similar (instead of a laser-activated dye) in recordable media, which really doesn't justify the analogies being drawn. The fact that they find it necessary to keep everything hushed up under the blanket of a "trade secret" (preventing anyone from doing their own independent analysis) despite it being thoroughly patent-protected is always a bit of a red flag. Combined with all their material being heavy on marketing and light on actual facts...
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 18:36 |
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Jabor posted:Note that having a different structure at the data layer is how commercially pressed disks already work. They only real improvement claimed is using something similar (instead of a laser-activated dye) in recordable media, which really doesn't justify the analogies being drawn. Well I'm certainly not going to defend them, but I think that their "trade secret" is whatever this recording media is made of. "Glassy carbon" as the wiki page puts it. That really is the Achilles Heel of all optical media like CDs and DVDs. The plastic component of the discs can last an extremely long time in proper storage conditions, but in pressed discs you get "disc rot" which is where the aluminum layer corrodes over time. I actually have one or two very old CDs from the mid-80s that have this occurring to them. With recordable discs the organic dye layer oxides as well, just much faster than the aluminum in factory pressed ones. So if these jokers actually did manage to come up with some sort of very inert carbon as the recording layer, it could conceivably last a very long time in ideal storage conditions.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 20:39 |
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Slanderer posted:Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something. Like every CD-RW/DVD‐RW ever?
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 20:40 |
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Platystemon posted:Like every CD-RW/DVD‐RW ever? Oh yeah, I think it's similar. Except this would be using higher temperatures, and probably has a higher annealing temperature to return it to a blank state (probably too high to make this reasonably rewriteable). A higher annealing temperature means that the phase change from amorphous to polycrystalline would take longer to occur due to thermodynamic effects at room temperature. I haven't read more than a few pages on this, and I'm typing on an iPad, but it doesn't seem to be complete BS, at least. They have a bunch of technical marketing justifying their "engraved in stone" line, and really it's not really anything to make a fuss over. Thermodynamic effects are really responsible for most of your digital data degradation---material phase changes, ion migration, magnetic moments changing, etc... For this reason, all of the degradation gets slowed down by low temperatures. Flash memory degradation is an exception, sorta, since quantum tunneling is required for trapped charge to escape. But that probably has a lower probability of spontaneous occurrence at lower temperature too I guess.
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# ? Nov 29, 2014 23:35 |
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The main problem with long time data archiving isn't the longevity of the media. It's how you're supposed to read it in the future when the media has been dead and forgotten for centuries, and there's no way to source a reader or even a computer system capable of interpreting the data format.
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 01:25 |
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My favorite obsolete automotive technology... Bosch K-Jetronic Fuel Injection System AKA Continuous Injection System Bosch had developed early fuel injection systems but they were mostly confined to luxury cars due to the costs of putting a computer in a car at the time, as a cheaper alternative they developed K-Jetronic to capitalize on stricter emission regulations in the 70s/80s. A plate attached to a lever was positioned in the path of the airflow to measure it, as the air passed through the plate would lift up the lever which would respond by letting more fuel through, the fuel was delivered continuously instead of being pulsed like other fuel injection systems eliminating the need for any computer. In theory this was a genius system, the lever system made sure there was always a good air/fuel mixture without the need for expensive electronics. The reality was that it was at best marginally better than a carburetor. It was prone to vapor lock just like a carb. The continuous injection so close to the intake valves meant the fuel had a habit of turning back into liquid form when it was cold. The fuel system would gradually lose pressure from wear over the years and throw the air fuel mixture off. Without a computer to correct this your car would just slowly run worse and worse until you were prepared to tear the whole system apart and find the faulty components. Bosch eventually relented adding an oxygen sensor and an analog computer to monitor combustion and adjust the fuel mixture. A further enhancement came in the form of a knock sensor, a digital computer, electronic ignition timing and a pressure actuator for the fuel distributor. By this time though the cost difference between K-Jetronic and pulsed injection systems were becoming minimal. K-Jetronic eventually died off in the 90s with the carburetor as car manufacturers looked for the better power and fuel economy of pulsed injection. It was a unique cost effective solution for the time that got killed off by the falling costs of electronics like so many other things during that period. That's not to say it didn't make its mark in its time though. It was used by almost all the european manufactuers on some of their cars including the Porsche 911 and Ferrari Testarossa. and the Delorean, though that's not nearly as prestigious
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 05:50 |
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1500quidporsche posted:My favorite obsolete automotive technology... The greatest car ever produced, the Volvo 240, used K-Jet.
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 17:45 |
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Collateral Damage posted:The main problem with long time data archiving isn't the longevity of the media. It's how you're supposed to read it in the future when the media has been dead and forgotten for centuries, and there's no way to source a reader or even a computer system capable of interpreting the data format. In that vein: a lot of archives in old dutch dutch are on the verge of being unreadable because of the lack of people able to read it.
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 18:06 |
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Suzuran posted:How far away from central Illinois are you? I have a PDP-11 with an RX02 drive, so in theory I could image those disks. Pastey posted:That really is the Achilles Heel of all optical media like CDs and DVDs. The plastic component of the discs can last an extremely long time in proper storage conditions, but in pressed discs you get "disc rot" which is where the aluminum layer corrodes over time. I actually have one or two very old CDs from the mid-80s that have this occurring to them.
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 18:32 |
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empty baggie posted:The greatest car ever produced, the Volvo 240, used K-Jet. Was that the one that used a fuel distributor meant for a V8? I still need to grab one of those.
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# ? Nov 30, 2014 20:12 |
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duckmaster posted:In ten years people will talk about gigabytes like this. spog posted:Or until everything works wirelessly.
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# ? Dec 1, 2014 19:01 |
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In a wire, channel competition takes place in, for practical purposes, one spatial dimension. (2 or 3 is possible in commercial buildouts, but unless you're in the IT bitch threads (2 drink minimum) this doesn't apply to you.) In air - as in wireless - channel competition takes place in all three dimensions. Of course data density is wireless's Achilles' heel.
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# ? Dec 1, 2014 19:10 |
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GWBBQ posted:I don't doubt this at all, and it will be great to see what novel technologies emerge to take advantage of the increase in computing power. We'll finally have a UI for Dwarf Fortress.
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# ? Dec 1, 2014 19:12 |
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Tunicate posted:We'll finally have a UI for Dwarf Fortress. Some things are simply beyond the reach of technology...
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# ? Dec 1, 2014 21:09 |
Just found out I can't do 4K on my new monitor, so I'll put these here Displayport is my new master
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# ? Dec 2, 2014 01:24 |
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HDMI 2.0 can do 4K at 60hz, I think.
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# ? Dec 2, 2014 07:50 |
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KozmoNaut posted:HDMI 2.0 can do 4K at 60hz, I think. Really? Neat. DisplayPort can drive two. Simultaneously. Daisy-chained.
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# ? Dec 2, 2014 14:21 |
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Exit Strategy posted:Really? Neat. DisplayPort can drive two. Simultaneously. Daisy-chained. So? That doesn't make HDMI obsolete.
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# ? Dec 2, 2014 15:09 |
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# ? Mar 29, 2024 07:52 |
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CABLE FIIIIIIIGHT
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# ? Dec 2, 2014 17:15 |