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Suzuran
Sep 14, 2012

Lazlo Nibble posted:



Someday I will find a way to read you again, Atari 5200-vs.-ColecoVision flame wars and VT100 escape-sequence movies.

How far away from central Illinois are you? I have a PDP-11 with an RX02 drive, so in theory I could image those disks.
I'd just have to plug everything in and make sure it all still works.

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Pastey posted:

It's kind of funny to think that even with all the methods of data storage invented in the last 40 years or so, paper is still the only thing that we know for sure will still be here hundreds of years from now and retain it's data. Assuming it's stored correctly of course.

As far as I remember, the figures (on average) are something like this:

Magnetic media - 10 to 20 years
Factory pressed CDs/DVDs/Blu-ray - 30 to 50 years
Archival quality CDRs/DVD-Rs/Recordable Blu-Ray - 100 years
SSDs and other flash based media - 3 to 6 months unpowered, longer based on write cycle, max probably 10 years


Paper - stored in a constant temperature/humidity environment - indefinite


I keep reading stories from time to time about newly researched mediums that could last millennia, but as far as I know nothing has made it to market yet even in the high end. There may be some really esoteric stuff in use by the NSA or some such, but I haven't read baout it yet.

If anyone has any inside knowledge of this I'd love to hear about it.
International standard for microfilm is 500 years.

bring back old gbs
Feb 28, 2007

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Antifreeze Head posted:

I always considered that one of the "deeper" hidden jokes in ReBoot that Hexadecimal's pet was named Scuzzy.



wow that has to be the most complicated texture in the entire show. look at all those lil dots.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

HEY GAL posted:

International standard for microfilm is 500 years.

Yeah but microfilm is the devil's own invention.

Pastey
Jun 17, 2005
Some old crap, different roll of tissue

HEY GAL posted:

International standard for microfilm is 500 years.

I did not know this!


Is microfilm considered a different beast from microfiche?

I ask because I'm old enough to remember libraries back in the day having issues with certain sections of their microfiche catalogs that were often referred to going "halloween" on them. Stuff like VE-day, the moon landing, Watergate, etc. would eventually start to have their black areas go to a weird, sickly orange or purple hue over time and use.

Though I guess any estimated lifespan for recorded media assumes it's simply being stored and not used. The bulbs on those old microfiche readers put out a crap-ton of light and heat. Couldn't be good for the film.

Schmerm
Sep 1, 2000
College Slice

Antifreeze Head posted:

I always considered that one of the "deeper" hidden jokes in ReBoot that Hexadecimal's pet was named Scuzzy.



or that Hexadecimal wore masks

cobalt impurity
Apr 23, 2010

I hope he didn't care about that pizza.
As a kid, the Scuzzy/SCSI thing is the only joke I really got on Reboot because my dad had gotten this bomb-rear end family computer and was talking about all the features.

I think it was when I got a gameboy and saw "dot matrix" above the screen that it clicked and I realized every loving thing in that show is some technology pun.

Antifreeze Head
Jun 6, 2005

It begins
Pillbug

cobalt impurity posted:

As a kid, the Scuzzy/SCSI thing is the only joke I really got on Reboot because my dad had gotten this bomb-rear end family computer and was talking about all the features.

I think it was when I got a gameboy and saw "dot matrix" above the screen that it clicked and I realized every loving thing in that show is some technology pun.

Oddly, Enzo wasn't. It was a placeholder name that just kind of stuck around. And Cecil (the thing in the diner) is both some old programming language but also apparently the name of a strip club around where ReBoot was made.

I've spent a little too much time reading the ReBoot wiki recently...

Geoj
May 28, 2008

BITTER POOR PERSON

Pastey posted:

Is microfilm considered a different beast from microfiche?

Kind of like what CDs are to DVDs. Microfiche is a sheet whereas microfilm is a strip of film on a reel. There's actually still a market for microfilm, as government record keeping standards require it. Not as the primary means of storage, but because once exposed and processed microfilm is extremely difficult to modify so it provides a tamper-proof backup that can be accessed if the digital copy's authenticity is questioned.

Back when I worked for FujiFilm I was trained on a microfilm exposer they released in 2008 - it was basically a LED array, two mirrors set at opposing 45 degree angles and a pair of lenses and film drive mechanisms in a chassis the size of a large mini refrigerator.

Captain Capacitor
Jan 21, 2008

The code you say?

Antifreeze Head posted:

Oddly, Enzo wasn't. It was a placeholder name that just kind of stuck around. And Cecil (the thing in the diner) is both some old programming language but also apparently the name of a strip club around where ReBoot was made.

I've spent a little too much time reading the ReBoot wiki recently...

I feel like it's oddly appropriate for me to chime in.

Lowen SoDium
Jun 5, 2003

Highen Fiber
Clapping Larry
In case any of you ReBoot fans had not heard, ReBoot is getting a Reboot

Johnny Aztec
Jan 30, 2005

by Hand Knit

Lowen SoDium posted:

In case any of you ReBoot fans had not heard, ReBoot is getting a Reboot

Yeah, but I am reaaaalllly sort of hesitant on the whole thing. I really like ReBoot, it had a lot of good story, but I'm just really not too sure how well it's going to work today.

quote:

. He also said the focus is on making the show marketable for younger audiences (that means more like the kid-friendly first two seasons of the original and less like the darker later seasons)

YEP. Gonna suck.

Johnny Aztec has a new favorite as of 23:01 on Nov 28, 2014

ContinuityNewTimes
Dec 30, 2010

Я выдуман напрочь
I hate it when my cartoons are immature

Factory Factory
Mar 19, 2010

This is what
Arcane Velocity was like.

Pastey posted:

It's kind of funny to think that even with all the methods of data storage invented in the last 40 years or so, paper is still the only thing that we know for sure will still be here hundreds of years from now and retain it's data. Assuming it's stored correctly of course.

As far as I remember, the figures (on average) are something like this:

Magnetic media - 10 to 20 years
Factory pressed CDs/DVDs/Blu-ray - 30 to 50 years
Archival quality CDRs/DVD-Rs/Recordable Blu-Ray - 100 years
SSDs and other flash based media - 3 to 6 months unpowered, longer based on write cycle, max probably 10 years


Paper - stored in a constant temperature/humidity environment - indefinite


I keep reading stories from time to time about newly researched mediums that could last millennia, but as far as I know nothing has made it to market yet even in the high end. There may be some really esoteric stuff in use by the NSA or some such, but I haven't read baout it yet.

If anyone has any inside knowledge of this I'd love to hear about it.

I don't know if this is a brilliant idea, a dumb idea, or something that is both simultaneously, but: M-Disc. What tells us about e.g. Egypt? poo poo carved into stone. So use your DVD/BD burner laser to engrave a stone disc.

Lifetime estimates for other writable optical media estimate that this thing will last about 1000 years. Compatible BR drives start at like $50, and if you built recently, there's a moderate chance your DVD drive you chose at random is compatible.

onemanlan
Oct 4, 2006

Pastey posted:

...
Paper - stored in a constant temperature/humidity environment - indefinite


I keep reading stories from time to time about newly researched mediums that could last millennia, but as far as I know nothing has made it to market yet even in the high end. There may be some really esoteric stuff in use by the NSA or some such, but I haven't read baout it yet.

If anyone has any inside knowledge of this I'd love to hear about it.

Your write up about different types of storage methods reminds me of an old NYT's story about the DoD's use of old cobol programs and paper transcription between different areas of the Department because they had so much time invested in cobol based programs. They attempted a really expensive overhaul using a modern programming language but bailed on it when it became overly expensive(which is laughable in its own right). I think John Oliver's(maybe Stewart) show covered a bit about it as well where vets were being screwed over due to loss of papers or other issues going from one area in the department to another due to the need to transcribe from computer to paper to another computer in a different area of the department.

Its wild to think that paper copies of documents are still a staple to major government agencies and corporations and is unlikely to stop any time soon.

onemanlan has a new favorite as of 00:56 on Nov 29, 2014

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
Also when you're storing your valuable information on paper you run into the danger of it getting eaten by mice or bugs or something.

Pastey
Jun 17, 2005
Some old crap, different roll of tissue

Factory Factory posted:

I don't know if this is a brilliant idea, a dumb idea, or something that is both simultaneously, but: M-Disc. What tells us about e.g. Egypt? poo poo carved into stone. So use your DVD/BD burner laser to engrave a stone disc.

Lifetime estimates for other writable optical media estimate that this thing will last about 1000 years. Compatible BR drives start at like $50, and if you built recently, there's a moderate chance your DVD drive you chose at random is compatible.


Woah, now that's what I was askin' about. I've never heard of this before!


According to the Wikipedia article about them ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC ), they are "more durable" than conventional CD-R/DVD-rs, but I followed the first reference link accredited to the "Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division".


Quoting from this report in the last paragraph of the second page summary, "None of the Millenniata media suffered any data degradation at all. Every other brand tested showed large increases in data errors after the stress period. Many of the discs were so damaged that they could not be recognized as DVDs by the disc analyzer."


Wowza. Sweet stuff if it's not all hype.

DONT TOUCH THE PC
Jul 15, 2001

You should try it, it's a real buzz.

Pastey posted:

Paper - stored in a constant temperature/humidity environment - indefinite

This does depend on the type of paper you're using. Some of the 19th paper from when we switched to wood-pulp instead of using rags is disintegrating because of the high acidity.

GOTTA STAY FAI
Mar 24, 2005

~no glitter in the gutter~
~no twilight galaxy~
College Slice

Pastey posted:

Wowza. Sweet stuff if it's not all hype.

Eh, looks like a bunch of hype to me. They're marketing it as if each disc is made of stone, but it looks like they're really just regular discs made from a more durable plastic.

"Unlike other storage mediums, M-Disc has a rock-like layer that permanently engraves your data in stone."

It can't be both "rock-like" and literally be stone.

And I don't know how the technology can be "proven for 1,000 years" if commercially-produced compact discs have only been around since the early 1980s.

I guess good job to the marketing team for being aggressive, but I think it would be more honest to say "Look, we took regular media and made it stronger so your data will be preserved for longer!"

duckmaster
Sep 13, 2004
Mr and Mrs Duck go and stay in a nice hotel.

One night they call room service for some condoms as things are heating up.

The guy arrives and says "do you want me to put it on your bill"

Mr Duck says "what kind of pervert do you think I am?!

QUACK QUACK
Sorry guys, paper is obsolete!

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

GOTTA STAY FAI posted:

Eh, looks like a bunch of hype to me. They're marketing it as if each disc is made of stone, but it looks like they're really just regular discs made from a more durable plastic.

"Unlike other storage mediums, M-Disc has a rock-like layer that permanently engraves your data in stone."

It can't be both "rock-like" and literally be stone.

And I don't know how the technology can be "proven for 1,000 years" if commercially-produced compact discs have only been around since the early 1980s.

I guess good job to the marketing team for being aggressive, but I think it would be more honest to say "Look, we took regular media and made it stronger so your data will be preserved for longer!"

Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something. And you prove something will last longer by doing testing at elevated temperature and humidity (and probably intense light for this stuff). It's the accepted testing paradigm for basically everything (and scientifically valid, for complicated reasons)

Jabor
Jul 16, 2010

#1 Loser at SpaceChem

Slanderer posted:

Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something. And you prove something will last longer by doing testing at elevated temperature and humidity (and probably intense light for this stuff). It's the accepted testing paradigm for basically everything (and scientifically valid, for complicated reasons)

Note that having a different structure at the data layer is how commercially pressed disks already work. They only real improvement claimed is using something similar (instead of a laser-activated dye) in recordable media, which really doesn't justify the analogies being drawn.

The fact that they find it necessary to keep everything hushed up under the blanket of a "trade secret" (preventing anyone from doing their own independent analysis) despite it being thoroughly patent-protected is always a bit of a red flag. Combined with all their material being heavy on marketing and light on actual facts...

Pastey
Jun 17, 2005
Some old crap, different roll of tissue

Jabor posted:

Note that having a different structure at the data layer is how commercially pressed disks already work. They only real improvement claimed is using something similar (instead of a laser-activated dye) in recordable media, which really doesn't justify the analogies being drawn.

The fact that they find it necessary to keep everything hushed up under the blanket of a "trade secret" (preventing anyone from doing their own independent analysis) despite it being thoroughly patent-protected is always a bit of a red flag. Combined with all their material being heavy on marketing and light on actual facts...


Well I'm certainly not going to defend them, but I think that their "trade secret" is whatever this recording media is made of. "Glassy carbon" as the wiki page puts it.


That really is the Achilles Heel of all optical media like CDs and DVDs. The plastic component of the discs can last an extremely long time in proper storage conditions, but in pressed discs you get "disc rot" which is where the aluminum layer corrodes over time. I actually have one or two very old CDs from the mid-80s that have this occurring to them.

With recordable discs the organic dye layer oxides as well, just much faster than the aluminum in factory pressed ones.


So if these jokers actually did manage to come up with some sort of very inert carbon as the recording layer, it could conceivably last a very long time in ideal storage conditions.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

as a person who never leaves my house i've done pretty well for myself.

Slanderer posted:

Their claims are based on the recording process changing the structure of the data layer, instead of causing a change in dye or something.

Like every CD-RW/DVD‐RW ever?

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

Platystemon posted:

Like every CD-RW/DVD‐RW ever?

Oh yeah, I think it's similar. Except this would be using higher temperatures, and probably has a higher annealing temperature to return it to a blank state (probably too high to make this reasonably rewriteable). A higher annealing temperature means that the phase change from amorphous to polycrystalline would take longer to occur due to thermodynamic effects at room temperature.

I haven't read more than a few pages on this, and I'm typing on an iPad, but it doesn't seem to be complete BS, at least. They have a bunch of technical marketing justifying their "engraved in stone" line, and really it's not really anything to make a fuss over.

Thermodynamic effects are really responsible for most of your digital data degradation---material phase changes, ion migration, magnetic moments changing, etc... For this reason, all of the degradation gets slowed down by low temperatures. Flash memory degradation is an exception, sorta, since quantum tunneling is required for trapped charge to escape. But that probably has a lower probability of spontaneous occurrence at lower temperature too I guess.

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009

The main problem with long time data archiving isn't the longevity of the media. It's how you're supposed to read it in the future when the media has been dead and forgotten for centuries, and there's no way to source a reader or even a computer system capable of interpreting the data format.

Tony quidprano
Jan 19, 2014



My favorite obsolete automotive technology...



Bosch K-Jetronic Fuel Injection System AKA Continuous Injection System

Bosch had developed early fuel injection systems but they were mostly confined to luxury cars due to the costs of putting a computer in a car at the time, as a cheaper alternative they developed K-Jetronic to capitalize on stricter emission regulations in the 70s/80s. A plate attached to a lever was positioned in the path of the airflow to measure it, as the air passed through the plate would lift up the lever which would respond by letting more fuel through, the fuel was delivered continuously instead of being pulsed like other fuel injection systems eliminating the need for any computer.

In theory this was a genius system, the lever system made sure there was always a good air/fuel mixture without the need for expensive electronics. The reality was that it was at best marginally better than a carburetor. It was prone to vapor lock just like a carb. The continuous injection so close to the intake valves meant the fuel had a habit of turning back into liquid form when it was cold. The fuel system would gradually lose pressure from wear over the years and throw the air fuel mixture off. Without a computer to correct this your car would just slowly run worse and worse until you were prepared to tear the whole system apart and find the faulty components.

Bosch eventually relented adding an oxygen sensor and an analog computer to monitor combustion and adjust the fuel mixture. A further enhancement came in the form of a knock sensor, a digital computer, electronic ignition timing and a pressure actuator for the fuel distributor. By this time though the cost difference between K-Jetronic and pulsed injection systems were becoming minimal.

K-Jetronic eventually died off in the 90s with the carburetor as car manufacturers looked for the better power and fuel economy of pulsed injection. It was a unique cost effective solution for the time that got killed off by the falling costs of electronics like so many other things during that period. That's not to say it didn't make its mark in its time though. It was used by almost all the european manufactuers on some of their cars including the Porsche 911 and Ferrari Testarossa. and the Delorean, though that's not nearly as prestigious

empty baggie
Oct 22, 2003

1500quidporsche posted:

My favorite obsolete automotive technology...



Bosch K-Jetronic Fuel Injection System AKA Continuous Injection System

Bosch had developed early fuel injection systems but they were mostly confined to luxury cars due to the costs of putting a computer in a car at the time, as a cheaper alternative they developed K-Jetronic to capitalize on stricter emission regulations in the 70s/80s. A plate attached to a lever was positioned in the path of the airflow to measure it, as the air passed through the plate would lift up the lever which would respond by letting more fuel through, the fuel was delivered continuously instead of being pulsed like other fuel injection systems eliminating the need for any computer.

In theory this was a genius system, the lever system made sure there was always a good air/fuel mixture without the need for expensive electronics. The reality was that it was at best marginally better than a carburetor. It was prone to vapor lock just like a carb. The continuous injection so close to the intake valves meant the fuel had a habit of turning back into liquid form when it was cold. The fuel system would gradually lose pressure from wear over the years and throw the air fuel mixture off. Without a computer to correct this your car would just slowly run worse and worse until you were prepared to tear the whole system apart and find the faulty components.

Bosch eventually relented adding an oxygen sensor and an analog computer to monitor combustion and adjust the fuel mixture. A further enhancement came in the form of a knock sensor, a digital computer, electronic ignition timing and a pressure actuator for the fuel distributor. By this time though the cost difference between K-Jetronic and pulsed injection systems were becoming minimal.

K-Jetronic eventually died off in the 90s with the carburetor as car manufacturers looked for the better power and fuel economy of pulsed injection. It was a unique cost effective solution for the time that got killed off by the falling costs of electronics like so many other things during that period. That's not to say it didn't make its mark in its time though. It was used by almost all the european manufactuers on some of their cars including the Porsche 911 and Ferrari Testarossa. and the Delorean, though that's not nearly as prestigious

The greatest car ever produced, the Volvo 240, used K-Jet.

DONT TOUCH THE PC
Jul 15, 2001

You should try it, it's a real buzz.

Collateral Damage posted:

The main problem with long time data archiving isn't the longevity of the media. It's how you're supposed to read it in the future when the media has been dead and forgotten for centuries, and there's no way to source a reader or even a computer system capable of interpreting the data format.

In that vein: a lot of archives in old dutch dutch are on the verge of being unreadable because of the lack of people able to read it.

Lazlo Nibble
Jan 9, 2004

It was Weasleby, by God! At last I had the miserable blighter precisely where I wanted him!

Suzuran posted:

How far away from central Illinois are you? I have a PDP-11 with an RX02 drive, so in theory I could image those disks.
I'd just have to plug everything in and make sure it all still works.
Denver, unfortunately, or I'd take you up on it.

Pastey posted:

That really is the Achilles Heel of all optical media like CDs and DVDs. The plastic component of the discs can last an extremely long time in proper storage conditions, but in pressed discs you get "disc rot" which is where the aluminum layer corrodes over time. I actually have one or two very old CDs from the mid-80s that have this occurring to them.
You only have one or two because every case of "disc rot" that's been uncovered to date has been due to manufacturing issues at specific plants at specific times. If the problem was inherent to the format, there would be tens or hundreds of millions of rotted discs floating around out there. Not saying they'll last forever, but they'll certainly last longer than 30 years if manufactured and stored properly.

Tony quidprano
Jan 19, 2014



empty baggie posted:

The greatest car ever produced, the Volvo 240, used K-Jet.

Was that the one that used a fuel distributor meant for a V8? I still need to grab one of those.

GWBBQ
Jan 2, 2005


duckmaster posted:

In ten years people will talk about gigabytes like this.
I don't doubt this at all, and it will be great to see what novel technologies emerge to take advantage of the increase in computing power.

spog posted:

Or until everything works wirelessly.
Everything wireless is terrible and I have no hope that this will change in the foreseeable future.

dont be mean to me
May 2, 2007

I'm interplanetary, bitch
Let's go to Mars


In a wire, channel competition takes place in, for practical purposes, one spatial dimension. (2 or 3 is possible in commercial buildouts, but unless you're in the IT bitch threads (2 drink minimum) this doesn't apply to you.) In air - as in wireless - channel competition takes place in all three dimensions.

Of course data density is wireless's Achilles' heel.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012

GWBBQ posted:

I don't doubt this at all, and it will be great to see what novel technologies emerge to take advantage of the increase in computing power.

We'll finally have a UI for Dwarf Fortress.

HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

Tunicate posted:

We'll finally have a UI for Dwarf Fortress.

Some things are simply beyond the reach of technology...

UnfortunateSexFart
May 18, 2008

𒃻 𒌓𒁉𒋫 𒆷𒁀𒅅𒆷
𒆠𒂖 𒌉 𒌫 𒁮𒈠𒈾𒅗 𒂉 𒉡𒌒𒂉𒊑


Just found out I can't do 4K on my new monitor, so I'll put these here



Displayport is my new master

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


HDMI 2.0 can do 4K at 60hz, I think.

Exit Strategy
Dec 10, 2010

by sebmojo

KozmoNaut posted:

HDMI 2.0 can do 4K at 60hz, I think.

Really? Neat. DisplayPort can drive two. Simultaneously. Daisy-chained.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Exit Strategy posted:

Really? Neat. DisplayPort can drive two. Simultaneously. Daisy-chained.

So? That doesn't make HDMI obsolete.

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Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004

Eat your hamburgers, Apollo.
Pillbug
CABLE FIIIIIIIGHT

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