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Blue Star Error posted:I think this case is a strange example of a miscarriage of justice that happened to get the right guy. +1
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Dec 5, 2014 20:53
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African AIDS cum posted:How would any of this pop culture ephemera be relevant to a case tried in 2000? Explain. The point I was making was in the fifteen years since the conviction the culture of America has switched to be more prosecutorial than defensive So when they're interviewed fifteen years later that's how the jurors come across as sure that he did it
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Dec 5, 2014 20:55
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Blue Star Error posted:I think this case is a strange example of a miscarriage of justice that happened to get the right guy.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:00
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Toxxupation posted:The point I was making was in the fifteen years since the conviction the culture of America has switched to be more prosecutorial than defensive Kind of a flimsy theory
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Dec 5, 2014 21:10
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African AIDS cum posted:Same here my friend cams posted:If you give him the presumption of innocence, what piece of evidence makes you think Adnan was involved in the murder?
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Dec 5, 2014 21:29
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Call it a mothers intuition
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Dec 5, 2014 21:31
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He's so innocent sounding I believe he has to be guilty. You are falling right into his sociopathic trap, I believe.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:34
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boring
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Dec 5, 2014 21:37
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Someone killed Hae Lee and if you can't see that it was Adnan well he's pulling the sheep (no pun intended) over youre eyes folks
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Dec 5, 2014 21:38
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:Someone killed Hae Lee and if you can't see that it was Adnan well he's pulling the sheep (no pun intended) over youre eyes folks thank god that known liar and psychopath came forward and told the police the truth i love when the system works
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Dec 5, 2014 21:40
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It was me. I killed Hae Lee. But I only did it because she was actually a vampire.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:40
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cams posted:it's super convenient that the guy they completely lucked into locking up based on zero evidence or actual motive ended up being the supervillian mastermind that had been fooling every single person in his life The lord works in mysterious ways sometimes things fall into your lap I don't know what to say It's quite clear to anyone who has studied basic mental illnesses you can easily tell he is a psychopath, just as I have and continue to diagnose myself with various diseases
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Dec 5, 2014 21:47
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EATIN SHRIMP posted:The lord works in mysterious ways sometimes things fall into your lap I don't know what to say
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Dec 5, 2014 21:50
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Adnan would kill again if he were released.
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Dec 5, 2014 21:52
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African AIDS cum posted:Adnan would kill again if he were released. But then he'd get insta-stabbed by the crowd of Internet sleuths following him around at every moment for the rest of his life so it'd all even out in the end
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Dec 5, 2014 22:03
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One thing the podcast does a bad job at is illustrating how different the late 90's were compared to now in regards to everyone being connected with cell phones and teens having far less independence now. To picture a current teenager pulling off a crime like this is a big ask because many of them don't even have drivers licenses and are just buried in their smart phones 24/7. It was a different time.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:10
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African AIDS cum posted:Adnan would kill again if he were released.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:11
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cams posted:If you give him the presumption of innocence, what piece of evidence makes you think Adnan was involved in the murder? Based on the evidence presented in the podcast, if I was on the jury there is no way I would have found him guilty. But in my mind there is a difference between the amount of evidence I'd need to see to put a man into the American prison system for life, and the amount I'd need to say "I reckon he did it". Unless you want to add in the ridiculous amount of complication neccessary to implicate a third party, there's only really two suspects, Adnan and Jay, and for it to be Jay, you have to suppose that he's a mastermind of criminal planning that committed a murder with bugger all motive, and he's clearly not.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:21
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Blue Star Error posted:Based on the evidence presented in the podcast, if I was on the jury there is no way I would have found him guilty. But in my mind there is a difference between the amount of evidence I'd need to see to put a man into the American prison system for life, and the amount I'd need to say "I reckon he did it". Why does everyone keep saying Jay would have to be a mastermind to come up with "No, I didn't do it. Her ex-boyfriend did it!" when the cops came to talk to him? And then having a story that was more full of holes than swiss cheese? The first part is basically the most obvious thing possible to deflect attention, and the second is proof that he's a really, really terrible liar not a "criminal mastermind."
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Dec 5, 2014 22:28
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Dec 5, 2014 22:38
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Someone made a short documentary about that Witman case. Worth a watch. http://vimeo.com/66520133
PaganGoatPants fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 22:48
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TheJoker138 posted:Why does everyone keep saying Jay would have to be a mastermind to come up with "No, I didn't do it. Her ex-boyfriend did it!" when the cops came to talk to him? And then having a story that was more full of holes than swiss cheese? The first part is basically the most obvious thing possible to deflect attention, and the second is proof that he's a really, really terrible liar not a "criminal mastermind." This podcast throws a shitload of facts at you so I may have some of this wrong. If Jay did it then he managed to find a time when he had Adnan's phone/car and Adnan had no alibi, committed an apparently motiveless murder, called up a girl he doesn't know and spoke for a few minutes, disposed of a body on his own, all without leaving physical evidence, and then most impressively of all, went to the police and persuaded them that it wasn't the poor black drug dealer what done it, it was the upstanding Pakistani fella. He's either very smart of absurdly lucky.
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Dec 5, 2014 22:55
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Blue Star Error posted:This podcast throws a shitload of facts at you so I may have some of this wrong. And people keep saying Jay had no motive, it was stated several times that he was (potentially, and just as plausible as Adnan going murder-crazy) jealous that Adnan spent time with Stephanie. There was even the bit about Adnan asking Stephanie if Jay got her anything, which was what lead Adnan to leaving his car with Jay to go buy her something in the first place. To go any further I'd have to say things about the character and capabilities of Jay that I don't know about, so I won't. But the point is, I do not see ANY reason to believe that Adnan had any involvement in this murder. Everything is based on what Jay says backed up by cell phone logs that do not actually help his story. EDIT: Jen and an anonymous call are all there is to back up ANYTHING Jay says, and even Jen's testimony talks poo poo on Jay. cams fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 23:00
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The day it happened is the day she didn't pick up her relative from daycare or whatever, unless you believe she was kept alive by Jay for a few days for some reason? Glad the jury was able to put 2 and 2 together.
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Dec 5, 2014 23:24
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Tormented posted:Our legal system is one of the best in the world loving lol. Best for who? Ed: to contribute a little, the thing that keeps jumping out at me is how obvious it seems that rather than being any kind of mastermind, jay got preferential treatment and probably tons of (unrecorded) coaching from the cops. Have listeners turned up anything besides the paid for lawyer and the amount of unrecorded time in police presence that would support that? the yeti fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 01:07
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Rabia Chaudry's latest blog entry (which correspond to each episode of the show) is up. As much as Sarah isn't a fan of Adnan's lawyer, Rabia is much, much more antagonistic about it. http://www.splitthemoon.com/?p=339 Christina didn’t make a few mistakes, she made enough terrible decisions to break the record for complaints filed against an attorney in the state of Maryland. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 05:47
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regulargonzalez posted:Rabia Chaudry's latest blog entry .... I hope if I'm ever in trouble, there's someone like Rabia on my side. Thanks for posting about the Witman case, too. That's captured my attention, as well, and would make an excellent second season.
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Dec 6, 2014 07:55
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I actually hope they don't go in the direction of doing another crime story. Especially not one with a less problematic subject. This isn't The Thin Blue Line and I don't think it really tries to be. This season is focused on one central question: "Does Sarah Koenig believe A second season should stick with the same or similar formula -- take one topic, and one chief investigator/host, and have them examine it broadly and slowly.
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Dec 6, 2014 09:29
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I'm surprised more people aren't discussing the problems with Gutierrez. That part of the episode, supplemented by Rabia's follow-up post, was one of the more bizarre aspects of the case thus far. Her perplexing, ineffective court "strategies," her closed manner with the clients -- those are bad enough to verge on incompetent, but the massive amounts of money demanded for services never provided sounds downright corrupt. What the hell.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:55
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Crisco Kid posted:I'm surprised more people aren't discussing the problems with Gutierrez. That part of the episode, supplemented by Rabia's follow-up post, was one of the more bizarre aspects of the case thus far. Her perplexing, ineffective court "strategies," her closed manner with the clients -- those are bad enough to verge on incompetent, but the massive amounts of money demanded for services never provided sounds downright corrupt. What the hell. I think it's mostly because we're all too busy trying to solve this thing and not really giving a care about the trial, even though that's probably ultimately what the intended take away from all of this is going to be.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:18
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I don't think anyone has denied that the trial was a mess at this point, which is why no one's really focusing on that aspect except Sarah Koenig. She absolutely should be, it can never hurt to show how flawed the justice system can be, but by this point it's just throwing more evidence on that pile without touching the thing everyone else is busy trying to piece together: Did Adnan, Jay, Don, Mr. S, and/or the Mailkimp girl kill Hae?
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Dec 7, 2014 04:29
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Also Gutierrez is dead.
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Dec 7, 2014 08:33
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:Also Gutierrez is dead. Which is why I don't think you can make a season two focusing on another one of her cases. Since she's not around to give her version of events, the argument becomes a bit one sided.
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Dec 7, 2014 16:25
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Tormented posted:This is overblowing it, this is not always true, no system is 100% effective. Our legal system is one of the best in the world but it does involved people and people make mistakes. I don't wanna rag on you too much here and I know a couple people have replied to this already but I just want to say that the US justice system is MASSIVELY flawed and there is plenty of evidence besides this one trial showing that. The United States incarcerates almost 2.3 million people which is more than any country in the history of the world, not even Stalinist Russia or modern China (which has a population of over a billion) has ever put so many people in prison. This is mostly due to "tough on crime" politicians who have implemented laws that put in place incredibly long mandatory minimum sentences for trivial offences. Unless you have a badge, in which case you can literally get away with murder. Not to mention the problems with making judges (and even coroners in some jurisdictions) elected officials who do the same "tough on crime" pandering.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:41
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I can't believe we're allowed to elect judges. I'm totally ok with being able to impeach them, but judges should not be influenced by votes, that's a travesty.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:59
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It's better to elect judges than to have them appointed by the governor tbqh
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Dec 7, 2014 21:58
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Toxxupation posted:It's better to elect judges than to have them appointed by the governor tbqh I'm going to put the same amount of effort into my rebuttal that you put into your post. More, actually, since I'm actually bothering to use punctuation. Nope.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:31
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An apostrophe is punctuation.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:56
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ninjahedgehog posted:I'm going to put the same amount of effort into my rebuttal that you put into your post. More, actually, since I'm actually bothering to use punctuation. With voting at least you get the will of the people, even if it's something no one actually follows or cares about. When a governor appoints judges you have them appointing all their political buddies and end up with judges who don't think blacks are really people, or want women to never show their ankles whenever a republican gets the governorship.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:27
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Yeah but when you vote you get people willing to pervert justice just to get elected
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Dec 8, 2014 00:34
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