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Teek posted:Holy crap at that ending. Feel bad for Yeonjoo, Dongmin got his rear end pulled out of the fire that episode. Can't really blame the producers for assuming that their contestants finished middle school math.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:26
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:46 |
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Ehh, yes, but there's a bit more involved with these games with changing in and out numbers and signs that some other rules might apply.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:36
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ahahha I loved the Dongmin fakeout in the deathmatch. It was so ridiculous to think that Yeonjoo would throw that that I was convinced that was Dongmin's parting. Both of them misplayed in that deathmatch heavily. There is no reason Dongmin should have won that.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:47
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Of course Jinho won, he's the best. 
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Dec 7, 2014 21:01
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Teek posted:Ehh, yes, but there's a bit more involved with these games with changing in and out numbers and signs that some other rules might apply. The show deciding to go against correct mathematical conventions in a game like this without mentioning it would have been incredibly dumb.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:12
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I started reading this thread with 10 minutes left in the episode and wait what? 
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Dec 7, 2014 21:15
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Hot drat that was a good episode. Heart breaking loss for Yeonjoo at the end. She was seconds away from pulling 2 huge death match upsets in a row but that bluff from Dongmin really got to her. It was good to see Jinho and Sangmin again though. Those 2 should just be on every season of the Genius forever.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:19
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Noooooooooooo  Goddamnit, that one stung. Yeonjoo was so close and then she doubted herself. Girl's actually solid as gently caress in deathmatches, but ugh. Jinho winning the main match was cool - with the same strategy Hyunmin applied too, which validates my earlier comparision. That deathmatch tho. My heart is shattered.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:31
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So what's the opposite of an Extreme Ways "Genius Moment" ? Just to describe that deathmatch.Shakugan posted:I think Hyunmin actually gave up the win when asking if the calculations followed order of operations. Jinho, like Dongmin, was assuming it just went left to right. How would going left to right have stopped Jinho from hitting 10? Even if it did go left to right (ignoring orders of operation) he could just move his tiles around so it did the division first. I think what gave Jinho the win was Sangmin sacrificing his score to help him, whilst Hyunmin was stuck trying to bail Dongmin out. Final scores were Jinho 50, Hyunmin 40, Yeonjoo 36, Yeonseung 31, Dongmin 30, Sangmin 17. Jinho and Hyunmin both finished their equation on 10 (+20), with nobody guessing their hidden number (-0). Hyunmin guessed Dongmin's and Yeonsueng's numbers (+6) pts, Jinho guessed Dongmin's number and got Sangmin's & Yeonseung's numbers from Sangmin (+9). Hyunmin was going to trade with Yeonseung but traded with Dongmin in the end to help him out, so Yeonseung traded with Jinho instead and paid 5 coins for it (3 of which came from Sangmin). This left Hyunmin with 14 coins and Jinho with 21 coins. If Hyunmin didn't try to save Dongmin and just traded with Yeonseung for a price of ohhh 2 coins (preventing the 5 coin deal with Jinho) then that would put Hyunmin on 42 pts and Jinho on 45. If Jinho didn't get Sangmin's and Yeonseung's hidden numbers given to him then he could've ended up on 39/42/45 points depending on how well he guessed at them. Conservatively I'd say he might guess 1 right, putting him on 42 and tied with Hyunmin. Also the deal with Yeonseung benefited Jinho. He had 12/3+7 = 11 before the deal, 12/7+9 = 10.71 = 10 after the deal, so he gained 5 points from it that way. Where as it wouldn't have effected Hyunmin at all. 11-3/6 = 10.5 = 10 11-4/6 = 10.33 = 10 11-6/9 = 10.33 = 10 11-6/12 = 10.5 = 10 So yeah both Hyunmin and Jinho had allies, but Hyunmin had to make sacrifices to protect his allies whilst Jinho's ally could afford to completely tank his own score as long as he earned the favour of the guy in first place (let's call this the Yohwan strategy). Without that factor their scores might've been very close... but also it seems like the kind of game where it's difficult to build up a big lead (hence the tight score distribution). It was a really good episode, but it seemed like the equations were a bit too easy and there wasn't that much need to compete in bidding wars. The only person who didn't make 10 was Sangmin (with 8) so pretty much everybody got what they wanted and that's with >75% of the coins going unspent. The game started with 120 coins and only 27 were spent across all 4 rounds (and that's with 15 coins being spent in one round with people deliberately trying to drive the price up). Final coin distribution was Hyunmin 14, Dongmin 16, Jinho 21, Yeonjoo 16, Sangmin 12, Yeonseung 14. Overall the game seemed like it discouraged bidding wars for a number of reasons. 1) People had different hidden numbers different things were useful to different people right from the beginning. 2) The order went anticlockwise from the highest bidder so it was easy for a group of 2-4 people to agree on what they wanted and pool their bets. If they were betting on individual items rather that first pick in a set then I think people would've bet more heavily. Also not being allowed to trade coins would've cut down on team bets (Sangmin probably could've broken the game completely if he gave all his coins to Jinho at the start. With Sangmin's coins and hidden number Jinho would've been on 43 points before he even did anyway) 3) People could trade numbers and operators there wasn't so much pressure to get what they needed as quickly as possible. If they got into a complete mess they could get out of it later. Also I think 10 was one of the friendlier totals to shoot for. The one bidding war we had was Hyunmin+Dongmin+Jinho+Yeonjoo vs Sangmin+Yeonseung and I think the team of 4 waaaaay overspent there. If they had let Yeonseung eat the 12 coin cost he probably would've turned up dead last just from that unless Sangmin bailed him out with coins. Especially seeing as they did that mainly to screw over Yeonseung who managed to get an equation equalling 10 anyway. It worked out for Hyunmin though because he needed a minus and would've been stuck last in the turn order if he Yeonseung had won the bid. It seems like large numbers & the division sign was definitely the best way to play the game and only Hyunmin and Jinho realized that. That set up allowed you to reach 10 from a wide range of numbers and made it more difficult for people to predict what your hidden number was. The strongest combos were "10 + /" and "11 - /" as both of those allow you to reach 10 regardless of what your other numbers are. And although Division was really strong, Multiplication was a really bad pick since it could spiral massively out of control if you had large numbers and was pretty predictable if your hidden number was involved in the multiplication. Which makes it completely hilarious that in the first round Dongmin paid a bunch of coins for the privilege of picking the worst card. Might've had a very different game if Dongmin hadn't picked Multiplication and Jinho had gotten stuck with it (as he was last in turn order). Shakugan posted:What was also funny was that Jinho clearly didn't want to work with Sangmin for the simple reason that he wanted the whole prize himself. I think it was more that Jinho didn't trust Sangmin rather than wanting to hog the prize money. Jinho was talking to Hyunmin so clearly he was open to making deals, just at this stage he's wary of potential Sangmin treachery. It didn't help that Sangmin basically opened the negotiations by saying "We should share hidden numbers!  " which allies had basically no reason to do - it's pretty easy to deliberately guess wrong and they could just tell you a wrong number to pick. Sharing numbers just allows the other guy to screw you over really, see also how quickly Sangmin gave Yeonseung's number away to Jinho.Presumably they did come to a deal halfway through the episode since Sangmin pushed Jinho into first place.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:30
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Really good episode indeed! I thought Jinho generally played it smart by keeping his number as secret as he could, then had both the ally in Sangmin and some luck with his final equation (though he didn't really NEED luck, it's not like Yeongseung would have refused him the trade if he was aware of how important it was and as mentioned 45 instead of 50 would still have won it for him). Sangmin was surprisingly willing to basically tank his score though, guess the combination of little pressure and wanting a guest win was enough to let him take it easy. And yeah, I basically couldn't believe that whole deathmatch. Dongmin was way out of it today really. But Yeonjoo really didn't deserve to win if she couldn't even see that poo poo, I mean come on. First the turn 1 miss, then the failure to actually call him...
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Dec 7, 2014 22:49
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We should've had "Extreme Ways" for Jinho's crushing victory, and then the opposite of "Extreme Ways" for the whole rest of the episode. gently caress. Also, by unnecessarily writing down Dongmin's actual number, Hyunmin sealed Dongmin's fate for no benefit to himself. Jerk.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:53
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Speaking of dodged bullets, didn't Dongmin say he wanted to do the math black mission?
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Dec 7, 2014 23:25
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Elite posted:
Which is completely valid as that's basically Sangmin's signature move. We all know Sangmin would have backstabbed Jinho if he had an assured win but he's got champion pride and image to think about too. This way he at least gets to force Jinho to buy dinner for him. Possibly on a yacht. The win wasn't quite as overwhelming for the season 1 cast as it was in season 2 but that's what happens when you don't bring back the scary one.
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Dec 7, 2014 23:36
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I assumed Dongmin was playing up his being on-tilt to make what would be a pretty one-sided deathmatch more interesting, but managing to put yourself in a losing position twice in a row is impressive. Though I didn't see the issue with his first move until they pointed it out, either. Do more game-minded people than me have opinions on Monorail's strength overall as a deathmatch? Usually people here are pretty good at breaking them down from a technical standpoint.
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Dec 7, 2014 23:50
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I figured the truncation trick and I was really happy that someone was able to figure it too. I nominate Yeonjoo's elimination as the saddest The Genius moment. Szara posted:^Your comment made me all apprehensive, so I looked up some spoilers on another site and that person didn't get eliminated. I think this is going to be the most tense episode of the season so far. The website totally tricked me!!
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Dec 8, 2014 00:48
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Segway Rave posted:Do more game-minded people than me have opinions on Monorail's strength overall as a deathmatch? Usually people here are pretty good at breaking them down from a technical standpoint. We're a page into discussion, I think we can ditch the spoiler tags. My immediate reaction to the game was that it was too simple with some obvious strategies and very easy for a player who recognized them to force a series of moves that guaranteed their win. Of course then both players blow it...
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Dec 8, 2014 01:10
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hahahah that deathmatch  Just because Dongmin fell rear end-backwards into an amazing bluff doesn't mean it wasn't well played, that took a perfect poker face and a lot of guts to pull off. Yeonjoo was so so so close to figuring it out too... I wonder how much longer Dongmin can survive like this though, he gets frustrated so easily and betrayals are gonna be coming fast and loose at this point, especially with how next week is looking. If he loses his cool there or in the finals, he's done.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:05
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Loved the "final four" intro, reminded me of Survivor. Agree that while Main Match was great, the game itself was slightly flawed due to the betting situation. Dongmin does get weirdly frustrated some times, and that's actually a lot of why I like Yeongseung. He's not really the greatest at any of these games, but he's having fun and not taking anything TOO seriously. Dongmin gets angry, Yeonjoo and Hyunmin cry, and Yeongsung is leaning back with a dopey smile. MENTALITY KING.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:31
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Noooooooo Yeonjoooooo
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Dec 8, 2014 03:44
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Season started great. Then it got bland few episodes and now it's picking up really great towards the end. Go Mentality King!
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Dec 8, 2014 03:46
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Factor Mystic posted:Loved the "final four" intro, reminded me of Survivor. Agree that while Main Match was great, the game itself was slightly flawed due to the betting situation. Yeonjoo is adorable when she cries. I wish they would have made her cry some more.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:54
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dungtongue posted:Yeonjoo is adorable when she cries. I wish they would have made her cry some more. You are a monster. How could anyone stand to see her cry?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:18
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Factor Mystic posted:Loved the "final four" intro, reminded me of Survivor. Agree that while Main Match was great, the game itself was slightly flawed due to the betting situation. Sangmin was incredibly invested in the Genius and he was the best. He took it more seriously than anyone because he owed so much money to so many people that he straight up ripped off. They need to throw some people on the show who are just swimming in debt.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:32
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NeuroticLich posted:ahahha I loved the Dongmin fakeout in the deathmatch. It was so ridiculous to think that Yeonjoo would throw that that I was convinced that was Dongmin's parting. Both of them misplayed in that deathmatch heavily. There is no reason Dongmin should have won that. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 06:10
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How can people get to the round of four and still be so dumb? 
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Dec 8, 2014 06:58
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Colonel Cool posted:How can people get to the round of four and still be so dumb? Too many group games this season. It hasn't been difficult at all to coast in the background and just follow someone else's plan.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:04
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Colonel Cool posted:How can people get to the round of four and still be so dumb? To be fair, while I noticed the second (not the first) time Dongmin hosed himself in the Death Match, that was while laying in my comfy bed popping some M&Ms into my mouth. No doubt I do an even shittier job with a bunch of TV lights and cameras in my face. But yeah that was cringeworthy to watch. I was yelling at the screen.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:53
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Soylentbits posted:Sangmin was incredibly invested in the Genius and he was the best. He took it more seriously than anyone because he owed so much money to so many people that he straight up ripped off. They need to throw some people on the show who are just swimming in debt. Or the show could fully embrace its Liar Game roots and put people into crippling debt for losing rounds, though I imagine that would make it more difficult to find contestants. Elite fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 10:51
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Elite posted:Or the show could fully embrace its Liar Game roots and put people into crippling debt for losing rounds, though I imagine that would make it more difficult to find contestants. Eh, as I've understood it crippling debt is the korean way.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:07
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Monorail is a poo poo as gently caress death match game.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:20
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...that deathmatch wow! The editing really did me for a spin. I only wish there were more reaction shots from the spectator room because Hyunmin looked on the verge of tears the entire time.
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Dec 8, 2014 15:01
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i simply can't believe that trick worked. also can't believe they didn't see that first turn win, what a dumb deathmatch
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Dec 8, 2014 15:11
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I didn't think monorail was that bad. The second player has a big advantage, but the first player can afford to practice his opening before the game. You're probably hosed if you're going first against Hyunmin or Jinho, but the other contestants will most likely make mistakes, especially in that situation (death match, after a mentally taxing main match, in front of cameras).
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Dec 8, 2014 15:34
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That was the best
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Dec 8, 2014 15:42
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Davincie posted:i simply can't believe that trick worked. also can't believe they didn't see that first turn win, what a dumb deathmatch
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Dec 8, 2014 17:04
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I would bet on it being a solved game with a second player win if both played perfectly, too.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:15
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It feels like if you're playing first your only options are to either make a move that makes the track impossible in a way such that the other player doesn't notice. (more subtly than dongmin's of course) or to make the track seem impossible to make so that the other player calls it.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:17
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There's no reason to think that second player has an advantage. It's like you started with an empty board, and then went first by playing the 2 tracks.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:48
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It reminds me a lot of Nim, which is strongly solved.
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Dec 8, 2014 18:00
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 01:46 |
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How much does it matter if it can be "solved"? None of these players are going to be monorail experts and they probably won't solve it in the thirty minutes or whatever that they get before the match runs. And if they did figure it out they'd just be really good players who deserve the win. Unless the problem is that going first, or going second, is such a strong advantage and the game is so simple that the person getting the suboptimal turn order can be screwed through no fault of their own...
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Dec 8, 2014 18:04
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