|
kastein posted:first paragraph - cool! Some power companies want to see a switched neutral in residential work with an ATS involved. I can understand why, if your premise wiring is hinky as gently caress (which can basically be guaranteed on anything more than 10 years old with at least one JAFHO involved) there's no guarantee that your goofy wiring and generator might not backfeed a couple dozen volts onto the neutral and fry their poor lineman, so I'm interested in switching my neutral even though my local company really doesn't care. Splitphase, residential service. In the meter can, neutral and ground are connected, same bus. So if ground is continuous and unswitched at the disconnect, if you bond anywhere else, including at the generator which I believe is necessary with a switched source utility neutral, then your house/generator neutral is still connected to utility neutral regardless.
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2014 03:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 16:52 |
|
|
That is a drat good point and I hadn't even thought about that, I've never installed a meter base. My ground and neutral were bonded in the original main panel. The meter base I have is original and I haven't mucked about with it, I have SEC cable run from the weatherhead down to it and more SEC from the meter base to the ATS, which I didn't disturb. Kinda wonder if it's bonded out there (thus bonded in two places, though there's no ground wire to the meter base so it'd basically just be tied to the neutral) or not bonded (leaving it entirely floating) and not happy with either answer. Sounds like I need to think this out fully, draw up plans for the whole system weatherhead to panel, and plan on upgrading to proper conduit and maybe a 200A service sooner than I expected, because I don't want to leave it in this unknown, definitely not up to code condition for any longer than I need to. I saw that NEC requires: 1. ground bonding in the first service disconnecting means, 2. ground bonding in the meter base, OR 3. ground bonding at the weatherhead (very rare) ... and for some reason assumed that since there was a ground bond at my original main panel, the service upstream of that was done properly in concert with this. Having seen all the other wiring in this house I'm really not sure why I made that assumption. I found a meter base (Eaton UTRS212BCH, 200 amp) that LOOKS like it has a neutral bar that's isolated from the case - assuming I used such a thing, I think I can make this all work, but I'm not sure. I'll need to draw it out and think some more. Thanks!
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2014 04:16
|
|
|
Well, keep in mind the intent of the grounded/grounding NEC rules - you want fault current on ground to have the best and shortest route to the source, enabling the fastest and most reliable operation of the circuit protection device. I would not suggest being bonded beyond the meterbase, for reasons of creating a convoluted path to the utility neutral for fault current during normal operation. Here's my thing - say worst case the generator is completely miswired or fails internally or whatever. Any 'voltage' that finds its way onto the neutral won't have any potential relative to anything past the bonding point. The 240v conductors are open at two points in your case (ats and external disconnect), and the neutral is bonded to ground everywhere on the utility side. Where can there be a potential difference on the utility to cause any harm? And I say this as a power lineman.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2014 05:41
|
|
|
When you say "beyond" the meterbase - is that from my view or yours? I'm guessing you mean closer to the main panel rather than closer to the weatherhead, which I completely agree with. I drew up my plan for the electrical system, but not fully detailed and I need to stare at it a lot more and think everything through. Got a bit of masonry done last night before running out of mortar mix. Filled in the last cast iron downspout drainpipe hole (left, by the fencepost) and put up a lot of new outer foundation wall under the back entryway.  I am definitely getting better at this whole bricklaying and pointing thing, because it's coming out just as well as it did before but several times faster.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2014 15:42
|
|
|
Yeah I think we're on the same page. I'm envious of the stuff you get done daily, but I suppose you don't have a 1 y.o. and 6 y.o. sapping all of your life force. I used to get stuff done after work....
|
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2014 04:20
|
|
|
Why is there a metal thing sticking out of the bricks?
|
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2014 07:51
|
|
|
to mount the skirting support beam to
|
|
#
?
Nov 14, 2014 08:01
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Why is there a metal thing sticking out of the bricks? To tear open kastein's shin when he's not paying attention.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2014 22:32
|
|
|
I already slashed my hand on it a few times, swore I'd wrap it in duct tape, and promptly forgot, so I'll be slashing my hand on it again I'm sure. It's under a 3 foot high crawlspace/stilt-supported entryway so my shins will never be near it. Jonny Nox is correct, also.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Got a bit more foundation work done on the parents place tonight. the temps are in the mid 20s, so we hung poly sheeting and a pair of 500 watt worklamps are keeping the work area a comfortable (and masonry curing friendly) 40 to 50 degrees.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2014 07:46
|
|
|
Here is 27 very boring minutes of bricklaying while being asked if it is alright to turn off the work light. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdVufV5md5w And the final results:  When it is cured in a day or two I can knock out the remaining haggard rear end bricks (on right) and redo them, then it is all an inside the basement job from there on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 04:29
|
|
|
kastein posted:E: I am curious. For the actual contractors in the house, how much would you charge for a project like this beam replacement or the foundation repairs I've been doing? I am in no way charging my parents for this, but I am debating getting my contractors license and starting a side business doing repairs like this as it is something I am decent at and figure I could make some good money doing occasionally. It sucks while I'm getting started and not emotionally invested in a project yet, but fistfuls of money tend to reduce that somewhat. You asked about this a while ago, but for reference, we had our entire basement replaced (previously a half basement at 6 feet dug out to a full basement at 8 feet/all new concrete/all new sill plate) for $17,000. He replaced some rotted beams as he came across them. It took the mason 6 weeks, working 5 days a week, from 8 AM until 4 PM. Sometimes he had one helper. The house was a basic rectangle, about 800 square feet. We lived in the house the whole time, and I am so, so sorry for what you're going through on your house and your parents' house.
|
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
LoreOfSerpents posted:We lived in the house the whole time, and I am so, so sorry for what you're going through on your house and your parents' house. This thread is Calvin's dad saying "It builds character!" pretty much every page.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
Aside from one tie brick, the outside face of the foundation wall at my parents place is DONE! About loving time, too. Partway through the last section of outside wall.  Done!  Tonight I will probably knock a bunch of the inside wall down, but I'm out of replacement bricks, so I might let it cure for a little while longer and grab some more brick tomorrow. The wall under there was shagged the gently caress out, most of the bricks were disintegrating, and I literally have one replacement one left. Behold, another 27 minutes of bricklaying! Probably best used as a screensaver (remember when those mattered?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmq5wVqqEbk
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2014 01:46
|
|
|
I pick bricks up I PUT THEM DOWN  Outer wall now fully weathertight and ready for my dad to put up the rest of the skirting and floor insulation. So I've moved on to the inside wall, which was in better shape but still really hosed. Tore a bunch out tonight and put back as much as I could without bonding to old bricks I need to take out next, more Sunday night or Monday. Heading down to my place for the weekend to work on the main panel, ATS, and service disconnect wiring more
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2014 07:00
|
|
|
Doing some poo poo on my house for a change! Tore my whole service entrance apart a while ago, put it back together and during my last sanity check, realized I didn't know if URD cable is rated for use in buildings and conduit. It isn't.  Well, some is. Some isn't. If it is dual rated URD/RHW (which some is) it can be used in conduit and buildings no problem. What I got was only rated URD, drat it. Since I am a stickler for dumb poo poo like that, which no one will likely ever notice, I tore it all back out and redid it with XHHW rated cable (checked, and yup, the insulation is made from the same crosslinked polyethylene as the URD, but I'll be damned if I break code here.) Also decided that even though there is no requirement for top or bottom lugs of a service disconnect being the load or line*, I wanted the line supply at the top and behind the pressboard shield for logic/safety reasons, thus the slightly funky cable routing below. ATS wiring: (supply from lower left, load to lower right. Generator contacts are on the same end of the contactor as the load contacts.)  Service disconnect wiring: (supply from lower right, load to upper left. Since it is now pretty unequivocal where my service disconnecting means is, everyone should be happy to see the neutral bond here. I placed it on the load side. I am disconnecting the neutral as well as the hot legs, and want the ground/neutral remaining bonded even on generator, thus why I bonded on the load side. If this is against code or my EE brain disagrees with the electricians and linemen in the house, please tell me.)  So to clarify: Current service setup is 100 amps into a 200A service disconnect, neutral switched, ground bonded at customer side. Service disconnect feeds 100A ATS, neutral not bonded, which feeds 100A main panel, neutral not bonded. Eventual service setup, when I finish the house and basement remodel and have a full welding and machine shop down there, will be: 200A servide into a 200A service disconnect, neutral switched, ground bonded at customer side. Feeds 200A panel, ground not bonded. 100A breaker feeds 100A ATS, ground not bonded, which feeds 100A main panel, ground also not bonded. All non critical loads will be on the 200A panel, all critical will be on the 100A panel. Generator will also not have a ground bond. Clear as mud?  probably way overcomplicating things, but I would rather have the flexibility and growing room available than not have it.Made sure to use no-alox on everything and got out my torque wrench for electrical wiring for the first time ever. * feel free to correct me on this, code scholars. I couldn't find anything, and when I googled it, opinion among electricians and inspectors was 50/50 on codeworthiness, while everyone agreed that they would prefer it be done the logical way. since I was leaning that way anyways, that is how I did it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2014 17:35
|
|
|
I don't know what any of those words mean. Good thing I'm not doing electrical work on my house
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
kastein posted:Service disconnect wiring: (supply from lower right, load to upper left. Since it is now pretty unequivocal where my service disconnecting means is, everyone should be happy to see the neutral bond here. I placed it on the load side. Secondly, when I'm looking at the disconnect switch there, the line side is fed from the meter can? If so, you are switching utility current.... From what I've seen I would not want any device operating unprotected utility current inside my house. The amount of fault current for the utility protection to kick in is astonishing. I would strongly suggest, when you upgrade to a 200a service, change out the meter can to a combination unit with an integrated 200a breaker. The 240v buses come straight out of the meter and into the breaker, absolutely limiting the utility fault current and keeping it out of your house. Edit: here's a couple examples of what I'm talking about. You don't want this kind of potential in your basement, nevermind the cost to replace the equipment if that's all.  
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Dec 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 04:47
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:Couple things. Again I'll mention that the utility neutral, load neutral, ground, and ground rod are all on the same bus inside the meter can. So unless you also switch the ground, you are still connected to utility neutral even when the disconnect is open. Regardless, I need to give NEC 250 another read-through and make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything. Mike Holt says this is possibly one of the most misunderstood and violated sections of the code, and that many equipment manufacturers and local codes even get it wrong, so here we go... angryrobots posted:Secondly, when I'm looking at the disconnect switch there, the line side is fed from the meter can? If so, you are switching utility current.... From what I've seen I would not want any device operating unprotected utility current inside my house. The amount of fault current for the utility protection to kick in is astonishing. angryrobots posted:I would strongly suggest, when you upgrade to a 200a service, change out the meter can to a combination unit with an integrated 200a breaker. The 240v buses come straight out of the meter and into the breaker, absolutely limiting the utility fault current and keeping it out of your house.  )* you know, the one I haven't been able to use, ever, because she had similar psycho arguments with the previous owners of my place about it, and decided it was all hers when they moved out. It's a narrow, steep, bumpy, badly paved driveway with a small spring at the top that ices the gently caress out of it in the winter, and incredibly bad visibility for oncoming traffic at the bottom. So she's more than welcome to her miserable driveway, now I don't even have to feel bad about not helping shovel/plow it during the winter.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 17:32
|
|
|
If you've had a recent survey, maybe it's time for a fence. I'm thinking 20-foot tall earthwork berm maybe.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
kastein posted:They are? I thought the neutral was isolated there, since the code says to ground bond at either the weatherhead (hell no), the meter can, or the service disconnect - one and only one of the above. Since 95% of the time this means people put the bonding screw into the isolated neutral bar in the main panel (which is their service disconnect) I was under the impression that it was at least possible to get a meter base with the neutral bus not bonded to ground as otherwise most installations would be ground bonding in two locations, thus breaking NEC. In fact up until a few years ago, they commonly ran 3 conductor cable from the meter can to the main panel. My house is this way. Mike Holt has a couple pictograms for you:  
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 04:21
|
|
|
angryrobots posted:In fact up until a few years ago, they commonly ran 3 conductor cable from the meter can to the main panel. That seems to be highly dependent on area. drat near every service in my former jurisdiction, old or new, was bounded to neutral at the panel. In fact, when we first started talking about bonding in the meter can I thought it was pretty odd and mentioned it to an electrician I know who confirmed "odd for around here but when I was working in x, y and z places that's how the inspectors wanted it." After a conversation with him and what has been posted here I'm seeing the logic in bonding at the can being a better way. Especially if you're putting a main breaker in the can, which is a great idea. Bonding at the weatherhead is just weird.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 16:50
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm seeing the logic to it now. Also, it took me an inordinate amount of time to notice that both the meter base and the generator in the "seperately derived systems" diagram were neutral/ground bonded, which caused me much confusion  Thanks for bearing with me on this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
Well and keep in mind that anything I think could be preempted by your local codes and inspector. But they can be sticklers for the NEC as they interpret it, while at the same time demanding something illogical. For example, for a long time electricians would have a short ground rod just stapled to the pole, when installing a temp service pole for us to hook up by the road. It's temporary, we had no issue with it. Then the local inspector demanded they install a full 8' rod because the NEC says so. Well, they don't call for locates before installing this temp pole and rod, and of course the inevitable happens and this electrician drives a copper clad ground rod straight through our 2" pipe carrying an energized 1/0 7200v cable. Fortunately the fault protection did its job and he had no idea that he just knocked out power to half the subdivision. I like the idea of installing the generator as a separately derived system, because ground fault current will always be traveling towards the source in either case.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
Same, but some dumbass bought an ATS that doesn't switch the neutral. Wonder who that could have been...
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2014 21:38
|
|
|
More foundation repairs at the parents place. Almost done. E: giant blurry cellphone pic now not giant, still blurry though! kastein fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Dec 15, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2014 04:33
|
|
|
My dad was going through old pictures and found this. Picture was taken in early 2000. Wiring the parents garage for power. Digging 40 feet of 24" deep trench for the 12/3WG UF grade cable sucked, but it was worth it
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
kastein posted:My dad was going through old pictures and found this. You dug 40 feet with a loving clamshell and a plastic snow shovel? loving hell, man.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 07:37
|
|
|
The snowshovel was for filling the trench back in as I went, but yes. Clamshell post hole digger actually worked very nicely for digging a trench without a ditch witch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
Slung Blade posted:You dug 40 feet with a loving clamshell and a plastic snow shovel? How could this be surprising to you? There is always an origin story.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2014 16:36
|
|
|
Kastein is our Home Improvement Conan, and that trench was his Wheel of Pain. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
 Guess it did
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2014 06:26
|
|
|
Forms for the next section of the foundation are done. It is a short one, but the last formerly weight bearing section that is not currently bearing weight, and the last section I need to close the place back up so I don't get snowdrifts in my loving living room. Forecast says it will go above freezing at 6am tomorrow. I have concrete mix, tools, pex and fittings to make a  concrete cast warmer that will run total-loss hot water (I don't care if it costs me 50 bucks in natural gas and water at this point, I just want it done) trickling through 3 runs of piping over the concrete and under a few layers of fiberglass, flow rate controlled by a ball valve.I have concrete accelerator. gently caress it, here goes my winter concrete placing hail mary pass. It is gonna be in the 40s/50s all day and above freezing for about another 20 hours after that. That plus my insulation and heat piping should hopefully keep things curing instead of freezing. Pictures tomorrow, as it is presently oh-dark-thirty. E: yeah, not much has changed since then, aside from me being almost 29 instead of almost 14. Calvin and Hobbs is the best cartoon ever, BTW. kastein fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2015 03:46
|
|
|
I thought I posted form work already but apparently not. And then filled it with concrete a half hour ago when it finally got warm. gently caress you weather forecasters.  Waiting for it to set up enough that I can put my heehaw temporary heating system over it, then building a closed cell foam hut over it and leaving a spaceheater going. Hope it doesn't freeze.Only used 2.5 bags of quikrete 5000, which says not to use accelerator and that it is designed for low temp placing and high early strength, so I played by the rules for once and didn't use accelerator. Guess I will keep it around though since it is compatible with the mortar mix I use and that could come in handy. E: fun tip for if you need to make a form that mates up to old stone walls - cut it closeish, say no more than half an inch gap, then buy 1/2" trade size closed cell foam plumbing insulation and cut 3/4 to 1 inch wide strips out of it, jam them in the cracks leaving some bulging inward. It'll hold the concrete in fine, and you can easily point the small recesses formed when you pull the insulation out using whatever mortar you have around. kastein fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jan 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2015 22:35
|
|
|
This goddamn concrete has a cushier pad than I did last winter. Good thing, too, because I don't turn into useless powder if exposed to sub 32 degree weather before being ready for it. R10 poly insulation, I have a 1500W space heater set to like 75 degrees in there NOT pointing directly at the foam. Will be stopping by tuesday/wednesday to check on it and give it another spray with the hose.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2015 06:18
|
|
|
Haha, that's incredible. Maybe it needs a nice wool blanket, too? Did you mix the concrete with hot water like you can with mortar? I guess it wouldn't be as helpful given the size of the slab vs a mortar joint
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2015 21:40
|
|
|
Yup! In fact maybe even a bit too hot. Concrete actually makes its own heat as it cures simply because of the reaction - large pours can get rather warm inside, even in cold weather.
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2015 22:03
|
|
|
This seems suspiciously familiar to last winter's concrete prayer meeting in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 01:20
|
|
|
It's even at around the same time of year. This time instead of about 2 inches of fiberglass insulation and about a hundred watts of plumbing heat tape spread out over 6 feet, however, I have R10 insulation forming a wind resistant housing around it, and it's got 1500 watts of heater available and set to ~70-80 degrees. Oh, and the concrete is quikrete 5000 (designed for placing in low temps, though still above freezing) and had about 16 hours of cure time before the outside temperature even dropped below freezing, rather than type S mason mix (no accelerator added) applied in like, 15 degree temps at midnight, which was actually freezing to the goddamn bucket by the time I finished and was freezing in spots before I could even get the heat tape and insulation down. It was an unmitigated shitshow last time but I have hope for this year's attempt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 02:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 18, 2024 16:52 |
|
|
kastein posted:It's even at around the same time of year. Landed on the coldest week of the year so far in the North East (think I remember you being in New England). Struggling to get out of single digits / teens this week.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 13:12
|
|