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Screaming Idiot posted:I know this all sounds stupid and petty, and it is, but I have no idea what to do beyond editing and revising my work. I know there will always be mistakes, inconsistencies, and outright atrocities that I won't notice because I'm the one who made them -- or to use a metaphor, most people can't smell their own poo poo -- so this is a pretty nasty snarl for me. Does anyone have any suggestions for a course of action? I want to become a better writer, even if nothing I write is ever published. You may want to contact your local chapter of the Editorial Freelancers Association or Professional Editors Network, and try to find a content editor that's familiar with your genre. Pick your best work and expect to pay .015-.10 per word for editing.
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Dec 15, 2014 18:57
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Martello posted:You could post a thread with your first two or three chapters (as separate posts, makes it easier to switch between) and people will give you feedback. Hell, post it and link it here and I'll at least review your first chapter. Even if you can't get a buddy or two to read your whole novel, if some of us can help you fix problems with your first few chapters, you can apply the lessons to the rest of the novel. I think I could do that, yeah. I'd have to do a little work first to make sure it's presentable -- remove any obvious grammar mistakes or typos so there's less time spent pointing out little things -- but I don't see why I shouldn't post a few chapters. Even if it becomes the next Zybourne Clock of SA things to mock, I'll at least get some criticisms I can use to improve. queserasera posted:You may want to contact your local chapter of the Editorial Freelancers Association or Professional Editors Network, and try to find a content editor that's familiar with your genre. Pick your best work and expect to pay .015-.10 per word for editing. I didn't even know such a thing existed! Thanks! ravenkult posted:Selfpub thread has a couple of freelance editors in the OP. Hey, even better! Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 19:26
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Screaming Idiot posted:I think I could do that, yeah. I'd have to do a little work first to make sure it's presentable -- remove any obvious grammar mistakes or typos so there's less time spent pointing out little things -- but I don't see why I shouldn't post a few chapters. Even if it becomes the next Zybourne Clock of SA things to mock, I'll at least get some criticisms I can use to improve. Selfpub thread has a couple of freelance editors in the OP.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:30
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Just get crits and start querying agents. You need to start collecting rejections and critiques. I don't think there's any reason to hire an editor for skills you need to hone yourself.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:53
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If it's been so long since you wrote the first novel that you've written four more in the interim, then it's been long enough that you can start editing it yourself while still being reasonably objective. You'll need to show it to someone else eventually, but if you're still too embarrassed about it then you can work to make it less embarrassing before you do. As long as you follow the advice that you should always edit by cutting poo poo out and not by adding it then no matter what you'll probably end up with something much more readable than when you started.
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Dec 16, 2014 00:10
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I'm getting lots of great advice so far, everyone -- thanks! First things first though, I gotta cut the obnoxious prologue. It had lots of relevance to the series as a whole -- the final antagonist is the very concept of entropy itself, given semi-sentience, eager to devour reality -- but it has almost nothing to do with the first story, which is an admittedly trite adventure into a Road Warrior-esque wasteland populated by kooky rebel androids order to stop a mad scientist from controlling the Central Network (basically a fancier internet that doubles as the afterlife for sapient mechanical lifeforms.) Anyone want me to post it here so we can all have a good laugh at the pretentiousness?  EDIT: You ever realize how dumb something sounds after you type it out? Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 00:19
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quote:You ever realize how dumb something sounds after you type it out? Welcome to the wonderful world of editing!
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Dec 16, 2014 02:03
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I attend writing groups through a Meetup.com and I had something happen today. I shared a short story I've been working on for a little bit, which was about a cocky teenager who witnesses a girl he likes being abused by her father and then undergoes a change as well. After sharing, one group member told me it was choppy and then after that the group moderator told me I was in the wrong profession and that I should try being a preacher or something, because of the moralistic tone he felt the story had, which he based on two other things I had written. While the underlying point was well taken, I wasn't prepared for it to be delivered in that way, so I ended up being kind of pissed off by the end of the meeting. Most of the writing groups have offered pretty good criticism and I've improved a lot of my writing over the past few months and I understand that I have a long way to go before I could be considered a good writer, but has anyone ever been told that they need to find a different profession like that before? Or perhaps received feedback like that before? How do you handle it? Am I being a little bitch for getting angry about it?
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Dec 16, 2014 06:18
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I'm not a writer, but if somebody told me I needed to become clergy because I wrote something that takes a moral stance like "abusing children is bad" I would probably yell at that guy a whole lot.
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Dec 16, 2014 06:33
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Sounds like someone was being an rear end in a top hat. Probably a lovely writer who feels superior about himself by belittling others.
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Dec 16, 2014 07:02
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Crass Casualty posted:I attend writing groups through a Meetup.com and I had something happen today. I shared a short story I've been working on for a little bit, which was about a cocky teenager who witnesses a girl he likes being abused by her father and then undergoes a change as well. After sharing, one group member told me it was choppy and then after that the group moderator told me I was in the wrong profession and that I should try being a preacher or something, because of the moralistic tone he felt the story had, which he based on two other things I had written. I can see a story being overly moralistic and that making it a worse story, you're there to write about people, not convey messages. That said, it's hard to judge criticism without seeing the story; do you mind posting it?
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Dec 16, 2014 07:45
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I think that brutally honest criticism, even to the point of being mean, is generally good. However is should be given in the right spirit. There's no point in telling someone at a story writing meetup they should 'give up their profession'. Presumably they're there to be a writer so the critic needs to accept that. More appropriate might have been 'I felt like this story was beating me around the head with the moral and this made me hAte it and you'
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Dec 16, 2014 08:07
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Screaming Idiot posted:Even if it becomes the next Zybourne Clock of SA things to mock, I'll at least get some criticisms I can use to improve. If you post it and accept what people post as criticism you should be fine. Crass Casualty posted:After sharing, one group member told me it was choppy and then after that the group moderator told me I was in the wrong profession and that I should try being a preacher or something, because of the moralistic tone he felt the story had, which he based on two other things I had written. Sounds like a bad group though. Move on, let them all pick apart and demotivate each other and find somewhere else. If their advice doesn't square up with the majority of feedback you get from other groups, then that tells you that their feedback is counterproductive. I feel that like there is such a thing as bad advice though, and sometimes you get weird people who have their own agenda. At uni there was one girl who was pointless to work with, because even when critiquing a chick-lit short she complained that it wasn't 'dark' enough basically because it wasn't the same Goth dying angel story she pulled out every single assignment. Like literally, if we were doing a round on characters, she would cut in with "what if she finds out he has a dark secret, and at first he rejects her, but then later she goes to his place and sees him through the window, and he's got these giant wings, but one of them is black and broken?" Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Dec 16, 2014 |
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Dec 16, 2014 09:37
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If the group is giving you valid feedback, and this does sound like valid feedback, it sounds good. It's really hard to find groups that aren't hugboxes, so consider yourself lucky.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:07
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There's a difference between harsh, useful praise and useless ad hominems. There's no such thing as truly bad criticism as even the most poorly given comment can still convey a problem, but there are cases where the noise far outweighs the signal. Further, any criticism that suggests one should give up is bad criticism -- the entire point is to discover weaknesses and discover ways to overcome them. The best criticism I can think of is blunt and honest, but given tactfully. Less "you suck and I hate you" and more "I didn't understand your protagonist's motivation, your dialogue was stilted and unnatural, and you need to focus more on the story and less on the moral."blue squares posted:Sounds like someone was being an rear end in a top hat. Probably a lovely writer who feels superior about himself by belittling others. Essentially, this. I've known more than a few people whose lack of self-esteem gives them the urge to lash out at others for no reason other than to soothe their own egos. These people are poison to a developing writer; they're the biggest reason why I'm hesitant to post my own work. But everyone here seems talented and helpful, though a few are a little too harsh. But hey, good feedback is good feedback, even if it's couched in insults.
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Dec 16, 2014 14:27
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Show us the story in a thread and let us judge it by its merits.
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Dec 16, 2014 15:35
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Screaming Idiot posted:There's a difference between harsh, useful praise and useless ad hominems. There's no such thing as truly bad criticism as even the most poorly given comment can still convey a problem, but there are cases where the noise far outweighs the signal. Further, any criticism that suggests one should give up is bad criticism -- the entire point is to discover weaknesses and discover ways to overcome them. The best criticism I can think of is blunt and honest, but given tactfully. Less "you suck and I hate you" and more "I didn't understand your protagonist's motivation, your dialogue was stilted and unnatural, and you need to focus more on the story and less on the moral." Yeah. Like I said, I got the underlying message behind his critique, which was that the actual story was lost behind a message, but that was the first time anyone told me I wasn't cut out to be a writer. I'll admit that I do have a tendency to get more caught up in the message of a story than the actual message though. I get ideas from social issues and philosophy, which is probably the reason why. Still, I was notified that I made it through the initial submission screening for a short story I sent to a lit mag. Looking forward to seeing how that plays out.
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Dec 16, 2014 16:49
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Good luck! And I agree with Saddest Rhino, I'd really like to read your story too. Morality overload or no, it sounds interesting. I'm also curious as to whether the criticism had any real merit or if the complainer was just blowing smoke.
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Dec 16, 2014 16:52
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I'll post it here when I get back. I get that some changes need to be made, so feedback would be good.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:50
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screaming idiot post your poo poo, rip off the band-aid, get crit
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Dec 16, 2014 20:23
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systran posted:screaming idiot post your poo poo, rip off the band-aid, get crit Yeah man I'll read your poo poo and crit the poo poo out of that poo poo. (For what my crit's worth, at least!)
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Dec 16, 2014 20:48
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Well, I was hoping to critique a few other works before I posted my own -- I mean, it's only polite to contribute, right? -- and I was also hoping to proofread a bit more, but if I don't put up a thread and get it over with soon, I'll lose my nerve and slink back into the shadows. I'll post a thread in a couple hours after I get off work and I will sincerely appreciate any help I can get. I'm probably going to get reamed, but dammit, I have to get good one way or another.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:28
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Screaming Idiot posted:Well, I was hoping to critique a few other works before I posted my own -- I mean, it's only polite to contribute, right? -- and I was also hoping to proofread a bit more, but if I don't put up a thread and get it over with soon, I'll lose my nerve and slink back into the shadows. I liked your secret agent bear toss-off, that was funny and decently written, so unless FYAD decide your fantasy/sci-fi inventions are hilarious then you should be fine.
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Dec 16, 2014 22:48
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sebmojo posted:I can see a story being overly moralistic and that making it a worse story, you're there to write about people, not convey messages. I will grant that this is good advice for an amateur writer because writing a message driven story is hard to do well, but I disagree that it is always bad or that writers should only write character driven stories. There are some pretty good books out there that are designed to convey a message. I guess you could say 1984 is a story about people living under a brutal dictatorship but those people mostly exist so that Orwell can talk about various topics like the manipulation of language or the use of perpetual war. A large part of the last third of the book is dedicated to a gigantic exposition dump in the form of a book that the protagonist reads, and honestly that was one of my favourite parts. Another Orwell classic, Animal Farm, is even more guilty of this: the characters are just archetypes used in service of the plot. Ideally you use well written characters to explore the issue or convey the message with a degree of subtly, but there is nothing wrong with wanting your writing to try and convey a message about something.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:05
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Helsing posted:Ideally you use well written characters to explore the issue or convey the message with a degree of subtly, but there is nothing wrong with wanting your writing to try and convey a message about something. But if you want to know whether you've conveyed the message subtly, you really need to ask other people. And if they're saying HAVE YOU CONSIDERED BUYING A SOAPBOX AND RANTING AT STRANGERS IN THE STREET or w/e you should at least be open to the possibility that there may be room for you to dial it back a notch.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:46
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I say never dismiss a critique solely because you dislike the manner in which it was delivered. But also you don't necessarily have to put up with needlessly belittling poo poo just to get an honest appraisal of your work's faults. Don't confuse "harsh" with "fair." There are people that can tell you your poo poo sucks, and more importantly why your poo poo sucks, without straying into questioning your worth as writer and as a person. Seek those people out, because it's ultimately better for your work and your sanity. Writing is already ego-destroying enough without someone else piling on.
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Dec 16, 2014 23:53
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Baby Babbeh posted:I say never dismiss a critique solely because you dislike the manner in which it was delivered. But also you don't necessarily have to put up with needlessly belittling poo poo just to get an honest appraisal of your work's faults. Don't confuse "harsh" with "fair." There are people that can tell you your poo poo sucks, and more importantly why your poo poo sucks, without straying into questioning your worth as writer and as a person. Seek those people out, because it's ultimately better for your work and your sanity. Writing is already ego-destroying enough without someone else piling on. and, to complete the circle, we are unable to help any more without actually reading the story in question.
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Dec 17, 2014 00:18
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Say, is it preferable to post the actual text here on the forum, or in Google Docs? I plan on only posting a chapter or two at a time to give people a feel for my writing style (or lack thereof). I'm not sure about the rest of you, but gigantic blocks of text are difficult to digest without inordinate focus, and I want to make things easier on the charitable souls who plan to subject themselves to my schlock.sebmojo posted:I liked your secret agent bear toss-off, that was funny and decently written, so unless FYAD decide your fantasy/sci-fi inventions are hilarious then you should be fine. This is actually extremely high praise in my eyes -- you're one of my favorite posters in the thread. 
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Dec 17, 2014 01:22
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Screaming Idiot posted:Say, is it preferable to post the actual text here on the forum, or in Google Docs? just post it however. It's nice to have line breaks between paragraphs if posting on the forums.
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Dec 17, 2014 01:24
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Gotcha. Posting it on the forums might also make it easier to quote passages of text as well. Back in a bit with a link to the thread!
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Dec 17, 2014 01:38
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And here's the thread! I currently have the prologue and first chapter posted! Forgive the awful formatting, I copied and pasted it from the original document, then went through and manually added the extra spaces between paragraphs. I hope it's not too painful to read. EDIT: Dammit, I meant to edit my previous post, sorry.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:31
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/18axrK1i4Evd2WjAC4G7Y0vqjaS_ioSIpRb-0j30u2yk/edit?usp=sharing So here is the story. If the link does work, let me know. I haven't made changes based on previous feedback yet, so this is the draft I presented on Monday. Crass Casualty fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 06:18
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You may want to remove your personal details from your document.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:24
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The Saddest Rhino posted:You may want to remove your personal details from your document. I just did.
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Dec 17, 2014 06:31
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Crass Casualty posted:https://docs.google.com/document/d/18axrK1i4Evd2WjAC4G7Y0vqjaS_ioSIpRb-0j30u2yk/edit?usp=sharing Hey this is not too bad. I don't think it's preachy at all. It's actually morally complicated, because he chickens out on his plan of saving her. If you want more feedback on it you should make a thread for it.
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Dec 17, 2014 08:08
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newtestleper posted:Hey this is not too bad. I don't think it's preachy at all. It's actually morally complicated, because he chickens out on his plan of saving her. If you want more feedback on it you should make a thread for it. Yeah, having read that i'm more comfortable in joining the 'dickbag' chorus in re your grumpy critting guy. I mean if all your stories are like that then I can see a gentle suggestion you explore some different ground, but that's as far as I'd go. e: that is to say, it's not great but it's not lambently 'stop writing' bad either sebmojo fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 08:19
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Yeah, ignore that guy, that's not bad.
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Dec 17, 2014 21:19
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sebmojo posted:But if you want to know whether you've conveyed the message subtly, you really need to ask other people. Yeah it is extremely hard to do well, there's no denying that. But in principle I think it is legitimate to try and use fiction to convey a moral or ethical truth, as you see it. Not all fiction needs to be escapist.
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Dec 17, 2014 22:46
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Okay, yeah, that's not bad Crass Casualty. It's not good, and it needs a lot of work particularly at the level of the prose — you seem to be going for a level of Hemingway-esque minimalism that you just can't quite pull off — but it's certainly not the sort of thing I'd tell someone to join the clergy over. I actually think that his criticism about the moralizing tone is completely off base. Your MC is obviously a kind of a lovely person and you don't stray away from showing that, but you don't belabor that point at all and the ending is actually fairly ambiguous from a moral standpoint: he seems to be in the process of rethinking his behavior, but he finds out that it's not just a matter of saying he's sorry — he's actually going to have to change, and it's not entirely clear that he will. I actually really liked that, and the way that your spare prose distanced the reader from the implications of what was happening, I'll give you a quick few line critiques. quote:Ricky clutched his back on the ground. Sarah leaned down to help the short boy off the ground. There's nothing wrong with this section in particular but it's illustrative of the biggest problem I have with this piece. You tend to write everything in short, declarative sentences that say what happened and little else. And while that's a viable technique (and done well I think works well for the tone of this piece), it gets really grating if you don't work to break up the staccato bursts of your sentences occasionally with a longer one, or at the very least give a lot of thought to the rhythm that the language creates. The quotes sort of serve to break it up, but since there are long stretches where nobody says anything you can't rely on that entirely. Here, these two sentences back to back are like two unstressed notes one after another, your brain kind of slides right over them without registering it. Also, you use the word ground twice in as many sentences and the descriptor "short" seems thrown in as a telling detail which actually doesn't tell me anything. My advice would to be to read this out loud to yourself and really pay attention to the cadence of your speech to figure out the points that seem really monotone, and then work to spruce them up a bit. quote:Billy took Sarah by the shoulders and turned her toward his friends. Putting his arm around her, his muscle completely enveloped her. No it doesn't. I know that you're trying to draw parallels between Billy's muscular beefiness and how small the girl is, but unless he's the Tetsuo blob from Akira muscle isn't literally enveloping her. Figurative language like this only really works if the image your conjuring bears some relation to the actual situation, and especially given how literal your prose is in this piece I tend to stumble on images that don't seem entirely realistic. Maybe try sometihng along the lines of "He draped one beefy arm around her shoulders. The tanned bulk of his forearms completely eclipsed her thin neck. She looked like a doll that he'd picked up and tucked into the crook of his armpit." quote:"How's that going?" Alex grinned at Billy ... Billy and the two others laughed. This is the best part of the whole story. I really like how the detached tone of the narration works in relation to the violence that they're watching, especially when contrasted with the childish dialog. Actually, I think the dialog in general is pretty true to how high school kids actually talk, so kudos on that. There's some stuff that doesn't quite work (I don't think he'd say "Got a little making out yesterday afternoon, but she never lets me get under her shirt." rather than "We made out a little but she never lets me get under her shirt.") but overall they shouldn't be too eloquent and you mostly get it right. quote:Practice ended... He microwaved dinner, took it up to his room and locked the door. This, on the other hand, is probably the weakest bit, which is a problem since it's basically the emotional climax of the story. You seem to have tried to get a little bit looser in your prose, maybe to give it a slightly different feel then the rest of the story, which is a good impulse. But because you don't commit to it fully, what we end up with is Hemingway sentences about details that don't actually add anything to our understanding of the drama. There's sort of a trap that a lot of writers fall into when they're starting out in that they over-describe actions that are boring and contribute nothing to the story. Like, you don't have to say that someone opened the door, walked into the room, turned to his left and flicked a light switch to turn on the light when the only thing the reader needs to know is that the light is now on. This section has a lot of this. Also, partially as a result of the looser approach to description you get some sentences that are more florid then they need to be and don't fit. Like this one: quote:The afternoon sun bounced off the pale render in a blinding lustre. I have no idea how to parse this sentence. Where is the noun, even? My biggest problem is with the confrontation with Sarasota's dad. I don't get a clear sense of why Billy backs down, and since the only details you give about her dad is that he's a big muscular dude I get the sense that Billy just pusses out because he figures he'll get his rear end beat despite having a weapon, and that just isn't as satisfying as some of the other possibilities. By all means, show don't tell. You want to keep Billy's motivation unspoken and perhaps somewhat vague. But you can influence the reader's impression of what happened with the details you choose to focus on and how you choose to present them. Does Billy realize that he's a bully just like this guy? Maybe make the physical details you reveal track to your physical description of Billy (which, BTW, you never actually describe Billy physically) and you register his shock as he realizes he looks just like him. Does he realize that the dad is sort of a victim too? Maybe he has some bruises, just like Sarasota, or you focus on her reactions when she sees Billy at the door with a pipe in his hand. Maybe you can even subtly tie her nervousness around her dad with the nervousness the first girl displays after Billy pushes Ricky at the beginning of the story. Is Billy suddenly aware of and horrified by a cycle of violence that he realizes he's only perpetuating? Maybe focus on the pipe and how heavy it suddenly seems in his hand. There's a lot of different ways you could push this scene, but as it stands I think most readers will default to a reading that's the least thematically interesting. If I had to choose one part of the story to focus on, this would be it. quote:"Go. gently caress. Yourself." Ricky turned and walked away. Again, I really love the ending. You don't go for the easy payoff of Billy and Ricky becoming friends after Billy's change of heart, and ultimately he doesn't save Sarasota or even really become closer to her in any way because of the experience. If anything, it drives him away. This ending is what saves this from being an after school special and makes it more realistic and affecting. Good job.
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Dec 17, 2014 23:40
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Yeah given the overall competence of the piece I'd almost take it as a compliment that you pissed someone off enough that they told you to abandon writing altogether. I mean, hey, at least you got a reaction other than indifference! That is harder than it sounds.
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Dec 18, 2014 00:10
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