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Sharks Eat Bear
Dec 25, 2004

Let the climbing training arguing commence! :effort:

Still B.A.E posted:

I have to confess that I've never read your mate's book, and maybe it does a good job of compiling existing training info, but so do a lot of other resources, and I bet its message conflicts with some of them, or at least would seem to, to someone new to the ideas.

I think your concerns are totally understandable, and tbh I felt pretty similar until I read the RCTM book. I know I sound like a shill, but I don't know the authors or have any special interest in the book -- it's just the only climbing training source I've seen that offers a comprehensive view of why to train, the physiological/scientific background, and how to train. The last part is important because "how to train" isn't just a list of exercises, it's a 16/17-week plan with a day-by-day breakdown of workouts. And there isn't just a single plan -- there's a number of plans depending on your objective (beginner, intermediate, advanced, bouldering, big wall, etc.) and there are recommendations for how to further tailor/individualize the plan to suit specific needs.

IMO, just because there's conflicting info about training, that doesn't mean you should write it off. I think it gets back to my first point -- be honest if training is something you really want to do or not, whether you're a beginner or a veteran. If it's something you really want to do, you should seek out the "best" info and be wary of a lot of the conventional wisdom.

Still B.A.E posted:

This is the main thing I took issue with tbh. Advocating strength work on a fingerboard as a substitute to a climbing session on one hand, but saying training exercises should incorporate skill development on the other? You may say one session could be a strength session, and one could be a technique development session, but I really think for a beginner, it's much more beneficial to combine the two into two hard climbing sessions before separating them.

I guess my main point is that training =/= only doing isolated exercises in a gym instead of climbing. To me, training is more about having a systematic approach to improving your climbing strengths and abilities, which should include some mix of climbing on real rock, climbing on plastic, and doing isolated exercises (e.g., hangboarding). To be fair, that mix probably should be much more concentrated on climbing than on isolated exercises for a beginner, though I don't think beginner's should necessarily feel obligated to avoid isolated exercises altogether. IMO "training" is in contrast to "just climbing", which is what I think most people do, and is when you show up to the gym, warm up on a couple V0s, then see that there's new problems in the cave and jump on the cool V4 dyno everyone's trying, then rest 20 mins and read the latest DPM, then crank out some pull ups on a hangboard, etc.

Again, I'm not saying that "just climbing" is A Bad Thing or that no one should ever take that approach -- just that if your primary objective is injury prevention and/or improvement, "just climbing" is not the best way to achieve that. Maybe your primary objective is just to have fun with your crew, and that's fine -- I know plenty of people that climb harder than me that still take that approach because to them, training is tedious and sucks the fun out. For me, now that my time in the gym and on real rock is limited, I want that time to be as efficient and effective as possible, and I find having a firm agenda and measurable progress is a lot more rewarding than just screwing around on projects.

Lastly, even if you are doing dedicated hangboarding, getting really warmed up is critical, as others have mentioned. Spending 30-45 minutes working on technique and skill development is a great way to warm up before a hangboarding session, so again, I really don't think it's an either/or situation at all.

armorer posted:

Lets take a typical beginner as an example. I have encountered "this guy" a dozen or more times climbing at the gym. He can push though a few V3s, but has trouble on others. V2 doesn't provide any real challenge any more. "This guy" says that his primary weaknesses are slopers and crimps. In truth, he is more than capable of making the moves involving slopers and crimps, but he falls off of them because his body position is poo poo. Should he get a hangboard and practice hanging on slopers and crimps? No, he should climb more and learn better footwork and body position. He has no idea what his problem is, because he hasn't climbed enough yet to really understand what his weaknesses are.

Hopefully some of my above :words: explain why I don't think saying that "this guy" could benefit from training necessarily means he should just start hangboarding. The other thing I think is worth emphasizing is that, "this guy" will probably learn better technique/footwork/body positioning relatively quickly if he's climbing a few times a week. Not to say he'll rapidly develop perfect technique -- everyone at every level can always improve technique -- but I'd guess that within a matter of months, not years, he'll have made significant improvements in his technique. If you're even moderately athletic and climb consistently, it's pretty easy to get to the point where finger strength is the main limiting factor in progression. Starting to work on finger strength earlier will put "this guy" in a better position to both improve and remain injury free when he inevitably does get to the point where it's the main limiting factor.

armorer posted:

Obviously training for climbing can help anyone climb better, without them first passing some magical 2 year mark or whatever. Without actual specific advice from someone who has watched the individual climb though, it is irresponsible to recommend something that can cause injury and may be completely unnecessary.

This is just nonsense. If it's irresponsible to recommend something that can cause injury, then recommending training and hangboarding is probably the only responsible thing you can do! In general, I think training reduces the risk of injury substantially vs. "just climbing", because it means the climber is taking a thoughtful approach to what they're doing, which entails sufficient time to warm up, and just as importantly, time to recover/rest. As I described above, I think "just climbing" typically involves a lot more half-hearted warm ups, random jumping between styles/grades (often associated with when new climbs are put up in a gym), and inadequate rest ("dude, I'm 3 days on, but so close to sending my proj!"). Totally anecdotally here, and small sample size, but every finger injury (and even ankle injury, for that matter) I can think of has happened while "just climbing", and in particular, bouldering in a gym.

Hangboarding is such a great way to strengthen your fingers and prevent injury because you can precisely control the amount of resistance you use and therefore the forces/loads on your fingers at any time. Sure, if you use a hangboard to just randomly crank out pullups on the two-finger pocket while wearing a weight vest, then you might be increasing your chance of injury. But there's no reason to use a hangboard to do pullups at all, really, and if you use it correctly (i.e., conservatively, and for someone new to hangboarding that means using a pulley system to remove weight from just about every single grip) then I don't understand how you could argue that it's irresponsible or more likely to cause injury than "just climbing". Actually, I understand how you could argue it, you'd just be wrong. :)

If anyone's interested, here's some good reading on the subject from the authors of the book I recommend:
http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2012/09/10/qa-3-when-should-i-start-training-for-climbing/
http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/why-train-for-rock-climbing/
http://rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/training-for-rock-climbing/rock-climbing-training-plan/

edit: whoops, a few more posts were made while I was writing this tome. Anyway, think a lot of what I wrote still addresses them, indirectly. Cheers!

Sharks Eat Bear fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Dec 11, 2014

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armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Sharks Eat Bear posted:

...Quote from me about "typical beginner" problems...

Hopefully some of my above :words: explain why I don't think saying that "this guy" could benefit from training necessarily means he should just start hangboarding. The other thing I think is worth emphasizing is that, "this guy" will probably learn better technique/footwork/body positioning relatively quickly if he's climbing a few times a week. Not to say he'll rapidly develop perfect technique -- everyone at every level can always improve technique -- but I'd guess that within a matter of months, not years, he'll have made significant improvements in his technique. If you're even moderately athletic and climb consistently, it's pretty easy to get to the point where finger strength is the main limiting factor in progression. Starting to work on finger strength earlier will put "this guy" in a better position to both improve and remain injury free when he inevitably does get to the point where it's the main limiting factor.

...Quote from me about irresponsible recommendations...

This is just nonsense. If it's irresponsible to recommend something that can cause injury, then recommending training and hangboarding is probably the only responsible thing you can do! In general, I think training reduces the risk of injury substantially vs. "just climbing", because it means the climber is taking a thoughtful approach to what they're doing, which entails sufficient time to warm up, and just as importantly, time to recover/rest. As I described above, I think "just climbing" typically involves a lot more half-hearted warm ups, random jumping between styles/grades (often associated with when new climbs are put up in a gym), and inadequate rest ("dude, I'm 3 days on, but so close to sending my proj!"). Totally anecdotally here, and small sample size, but every finger injury (and even ankle injury, for that matter) I can think of has happened while "just climbing", and in particular, bouldering in a gym.

Hangboarding is such a great way to strengthen your fingers and prevent injury because you can precisely control the amount of resistance you use and therefore the forces/loads on your fingers at any time. Sure, if you use a hangboard to just randomly crank out pullups on the two-finger pocket while wearing a weight vest, then you might be increasing your chance of injury. But there's no reason to use a hangboard to do pullups at all, really, and if you use it correctly (i.e., conservatively, and for someone new to hangboarding that means using a pulley system to remove weight from just about every single grip) then I don't understand how you could argue that it's irresponsible or more likely to cause injury than "just climbing". Actually, I understand how you could argue it, you'd just be wrong. :)

We agree that "training for climbing" (generic term, in this case lets say responsibly using a hangboard) can most likely help a climber at any level. I am not arguing about climbing training. I have not read the book you suggest, but I have read Training for Climbing. The first thing that it has you do it go through a detailed questionnaire to identify which types of training you are most likely to benefit from. From there, you go off and focus on specific things for a while and then eventually circle back around and go through the questionnaire again.

This whole discussion arose because a new climber asked the question "should I get a hangboard". You are repeatedly attempting to turn the discussion into one of "Is training for climbing worthwhile?" The specific question was "should I get a hangboard", but the undertone of the question was "I feel like I should be able to climb harder stuff, but my fingers keep giving out." Every new climber I have ever seen reaches a point where they think this, and the problem is always bad body position. When you start pushing into V3, holds get smaller and optimal body positions get weirder. When you start to push into V5 you start seeing stuff where core strength matters more than ever, and after that from my experience problems are too individualized to point to anything specific. That is the range of bouldering problems where I think it starts to make sense to identify your weak points and specifically work on them outside of your ordinary climbing routine. (And yes, obviously there are problems below V5 that have other specific quirks. These are general observations about a variety of bouldering problems.)

I personally think it is irresponsible to tell someone at that point in their climbing "career" (for lack of a better word) who wants to climb better to go get and use a hangboard. Sure, if used properly it might help. I guarantee you though that the person's time would be better spent working boulder problems with people and getting advice from more experience climbers. At all of the gyms I've ever climbed in (which admittedly is only 6 or 8) the bouldering crew has been super friendly and willing to help new climbers with technique.

Endjinneer
Aug 17, 2005
Fallen Rib

borapt posted:

Yuuuup. That's a me... I did a V3 yesterday, which was ok for me ... Then a guy that was doing V7s nearby went on the same route and made it look so much smoother and less difficult just by being more "balanced" than me.

The hard part is making it look easy. Here's some stuff I do during my warmup on easier routes, because I secretly want to be that guy:
Try to climb a route in continuous slow motion - no lunging, barn doors and frantic footwork - just steady upward progress. This makes you plan the route through before you start.
Climb normally, but right when you're stretched out for a new hold, pause for a second. To do this, you have to be stable not just on the holds, but between them too.
Work out the ideal grip position and limb line from each hold. The intersections of these on a route should determine where your body goes unless you have a devious route setter. Try to climb using the best grip position on every hold.
Climb slabs.

Sharks Eat Bear
Dec 25, 2004

armorer posted:

We agree that "training for climbing" (generic term, in this case lets say responsibly using a hangboard) can most likely help a climber at any level. I am not arguing about climbing training. I have not read the book you suggest, but I have read Training for Climbing. The first thing that it has you do it go through a detailed questionnaire to identify which types of training you are most likely to benefit from. From there, you go off and focus on specific things for a while and then eventually circle back around and go through the questionnaire again.

This whole discussion arose because a new climber asked the question "should I get a hangboard". You are repeatedly attempting to turn the discussion into one of "Is training for climbing worthwhile?" The specific question was "should I get a hangboard", but the undertone of the question was "I feel like I should be able to climb harder stuff, but my fingers keep giving out." Every new climber I have ever seen reaches a point where they think this, and the problem is always bad body position. When you start pushing into V3, holds get smaller and optimal body positions get weirder. When you start to push into V5 you start seeing stuff where core strength matters more than ever, and after that from my experience problems are too individualized to point to anything specific. That is the range of bouldering problems where I think it starts to make sense to identify your weak points and specifically work on them outside of your ordinary climbing routine. (And yes, obviously there are problems below V5 that have other specific quirks. These are general observations about a variety of bouldering problems.)

I personally think it is irresponsible to tell someone at that point in their climbing "career" (for lack of a better word) who wants to climb better to go get and use a hangboard. Sure, if used properly it might help. I guarantee you though that the person's time would be better spent working boulder problems with people and getting advice from more experience climbers. At all of the gyms I've ever climbed in (which admittedly is only 6 or 8) the bouldering crew has been super friendly and willing to help new climbers with technique.

Not to nitpick, but actually the new climber asked "[2 years] seems like a really long time to wait [before hangboarding] - is there some other benchmark I can use to know whether or not I'm going to gently caress up my fingers by using a hangboard?" which sparked my comments about conventional wisdom related to climbing being, for the most part, a bunch of hooey. As long as you're careful about controlling the resistance (using a pulley system for counterweight) hangboarding will not gently caress up your fingers; in fact, having precise control over the loads you put on your fingers is the best way to protect against finger injuries long term.

I understand your points about finger strength not being a limiting factor/weakness for most beginning climbers -- exactly where on the V-scale it typically becomes the limiting factor is debatable, but I stick by my main point, which is that for a reasonably athletic person who climbs frequently, getting to V3/V4 or 5.11+ really isn't that challenging. Not trying to sound snobby or anything; just saying that I think it's well within most people's reach to climb that hard within a matter of months, not years. Finger strength, on the other hand, is much longer term pursuit, and once you get to the point where finger strength is a limiting factor, making gains can be very difficult and slow. Since training, and even training that incorporates hangboarding, doesn't preclude spending plenty of time climbing and working on technique, and proper hangboarding is the best way to condition your fingers for the inevitably increasingly-tweaky holds you'll find yourself using in the future, I just can't see a good reason why a beginner should delay hangboarding, if it's something they're interested in.

It all comes down to what time horizon you really want to see improvement in. In the short term, sure, just go bouldering a bunch and figure out how to backstep and drop-knee and you'll probably see a lot of progress really quickly. But sooner or later, your finger strength will be lacking, and it will be increasingly hard to break out of a plateau by 'just climbing'. If you're interested in long-term improvement, it makes sense to start addressing finger strength sooner than later. And it comes with the added benefit of being the best way to protect against injury!

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

I have been pondering this quite a bit and I am still not sure he should be getting a hang board. Mostly because of how he says he is going to use it.

Just go climb and use that climbing to build what you want. For example I wanted to finish this bouldering problem outside and was just super stuck because I climb slabs. I had plenty of grip strength and technique but no power. So I have spent a few months basically just climbing overhung bouldering problems in the gym. I finally put down the stupid problem last weekend because I went to the gym with purpose. I just think purpose gym climbing is going to be safer and just plain more fun.

I do agree that if he wants to hang board train then he can and be safe like you have laid out.

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-
I mean if you're a beginner climber who has great knowledge of how to train safely and optimally on a hangboard and also perfect form, then I'm sure there is no problem with it (I guess essentially if you have a good coach to train with). But I think it's a little dangerous to recommend hangboard training to beginners in general, especially when as others have mentioned most beginners would benefit far more from concentrating on improving their horrible technique than their strength.

Even if they don't get injured it's just not as good a use of their time as climbing would be.

ndrz
Oct 31, 2003

Man, I really didn't mean to spark such a lengthy debate with my question. I totally get that what I should focus on improving is technique and that I just need to climb more. My technique is horrid and I just power through problems way more frequently than I should. I'm not trying to use a hangboard to replace gym time, but it's also not realistic to be at the gym every day. I was mostly asking if supplemental usage of a hangboard would have negative effects more so than positive effects.

I know that developing finger strength is a more lengthy process than muscle. Hopefully, at some some point in the distant future, my technique will have improved and the bottleneck will become strength. I was hoping to get a head start on that and develop it in parallel, so that when I get to that point, I'm already prepared for it. All that said, after reading everyone's comments, I probably won't be getting one just yet. I know that if I do, I'll use it all the time, and rest days are probably more important than finger strength at this point.

pokie
Apr 27, 2008

IT HAPPENED!

Speaking of which - what is a reasonable number of rest days?

I typically climb in the gym 5 days a week, 4 of which are 1-1.5 hour of bouldering and one is 2 hours of leading. I rest before and after the leading session.

French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience

pokie posted:

Speaking of which - what is a reasonable number of rest days?

I typically climb in the gym 5 days a week, 4 of which are 1-1.5 hour of bouldering and one is 2 hours of leading. I rest before and after the leading session.

I think climbing more than two days in a row is a bit much (unless you're on a climbing trip and you're pressed for time). You might even find that you perform better with a rest day every other day. But I'm almost 30...

FiestaDePantalones
May 13, 2005

Kicked in the pants by TFLC
Climbed outdoors for the first time this weekend! Highlights were flashing the first route I attempted (5.7), hang dogging a 5.10a (10b is the highest I've redpointed in a gym), and learning a good bit about lead belaying. Next I really wanna lead a 5.9. Why is this so drat addicting!?

big scary monsters
Sep 2, 2011

-~Skullwave~-

coldfire07 posted:

Man, I really didn't mean to spark such a lengthy debate with my question. I totally get that what I should focus on improving is technique and that I just need to climb more. My technique is horrid and I just power through problems way more frequently than I should. I'm not trying to use a hangboard to replace gym time, but it's also not realistic to be at the gym every day. I was mostly asking if supplemental usage of a hangboard would have negative effects more so than positive effects.

I know that developing finger strength is a more lengthy process than muscle. Hopefully, at some some point in the distant future, my technique will have improved and the bottleneck will become strength. I was hoping to get a head start on that and develop it in parallel, so that when I get to that point, I'm already prepared for it. All that said, after reading everyone's comments, I probably won't be getting one just yet. I know that if I do, I'll use it all the time, and rest days are probably more important than finger strength at this point.

Problem is it's really hard for us to know whether finger boarding is right for you because we know basically nothing about you, your ability or weaknesses. I wasn't being facetious when I mentioned a decent coach - if you don't have much time to climb and can afford it it might be worth looking around for one. They can continually assess areas for improvement and recommend a training plan. Often big names in the local scene will run private sessions that they advertise at climbing walls, and I've seen people who've benefited a lot and got a lot better really quite fast from that kind of attention once every week or two.

Of course being a strong climber doesn't necessarily mean you are also a good trainer so definitely look around for recommendations and see if you can get a trial session before committing to anything long term.

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

Did a "climb all the V1s and V2s, downclimbing the V1s" circuit today. Hadn't climbed for 2 weeks and I couldn't hold on to anything by the end. I always feel like complete poo poo whenever someone says "V3/V4 /5.11 should be doable in months" because it took me 2 years to get there of climbing 2-3 nights a week. Now I've been stuck in the same spot for a year (I've gotten 1 V5 in that time).

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA

bartlebyshop posted:

Did a "climb all the V1s and V2s, downclimbing the V1s" circuit today. Hadn't climbed for 2 weeks and I couldn't hold on to anything by the end. I always feel like complete poo poo whenever someone says "V3/V4 /5.11 should be doable in months" because it took me 2 years to get there of climbing 2-3 nights a week. Now I've been stuck in the same spot for a year (I've gotten 1 V5 in that time).

If you're talking about indoors then it entirely depends on the setters. I've been to gyms where the V4s would be easy V2s at my gym. That's why you shouldn't really worry about what grade you're climbing and instead just look for problems that you like.

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

Papercut posted:

If you're talking about indoors then it entirely depends on the setters. I've been to gyms where the V4s would be easy V2s at my gym. That's why you shouldn't really worry about what grade you're climbing and instead just look for problems that you like.

This can be hard to remember when one of my male friends goes from 0 to V6 in 6 months and then makes fun of me when I fall on a four for "not wanting it enough."

chami
Mar 28, 2011

Keep it classy, boys~
Fun Shoe

bartlebyshop posted:

This can be hard to remember when one of my male friends goes from 0 to V6 in 6 months and then makes fun of me when I fall on a four for "not wanting it enough."

Get better friends :v:

(I'm just bitter I'm not climbing V6 after 6 months, but everyone progresses at their own pace)

crazycello
Jul 22, 2009
I asked a V10 climber how he got there once. He said it was simple,

'All you have to do is climb harder'

tortilla_chip
Jun 13, 2007

k-partite
BJ Tilden once told me finger strength couldn't be trained. To be fair, we were drinking at the time.

Boneitis
Jul 14, 2010
Finally getting back into climbing after having taken months off at a time. Still managed to maintain a lot of my strength. Flashed a few V4's at Stonefort, but quickly realizing that what I missed most was the people. God, it's such a community up there. People who are clearly much, much, much better than you give beta in such a nice way and pretty much invite you to climb with them. Really refreshing from the gyms in the area where you'll always get the token douche who thinks he's better than you since he screams at the crimps on a V11.

El Marrow
Jan 21, 2009

Everybody here is just as dead as you.

FiestaDePantalones posted:

Climbed outdoors for the first time this weekend! Highlights were flashing the first route I attempted (5.7), hang dogging a 5.10a (10b is the highest I've redpointed in a gym), and learning a good bit about lead belaying. Next I really wanna lead a 5.9. Why is this so drat addicting!?

It's so drat addicting because you're doing amazing stuff with your body in some of the most beautiful areas in nature. Keep at it. It only gets more rewarding.

CoasterMaster
Aug 13, 2003

The Emperor of the Rides


Nap Ghost
What should I look for in a climbing shoe? I started climbing about a year ago and I climb recreationally 2-3 times a week mostly in a gym, but occasionally outdoors. When I started, I got a cheap pair of shoes, but I think they're a bit big on me since I'm having trouble staying on small foot holds and smearing my feet on the gym walls. I do mostly top rope and I've started to lead and can do 5.11a on TR and 5.10b leading.

I've done some reading online and I'm not quite sure what would work best for me and what I should be looking for when trying shoes on. I get that they should be tight, but that's about it. Any tips and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Still B.A.E
Mar 24, 2012

As little dead space as possible anywhere in the shoe. Try on as many brands as you can get your hands on. In my experience, Scarpa are wide in the toebox, five ten and La sportiva less so, I've not tried many other brands. Some people love five ten, but I can't get on with the heel in most of their shoes, so don't get a shoe just because everyone else swears by it. Are you likely to climb outside much? What's the rock like near you? What type of climbing do you want to do? Stiffer shoes are better for edging, softer for smearing, generally. Leather will stretch more than synthetic uppers, but most shoes will stretch a little bit at least, so size with this in mind. Tighter shoes will likely perform better (if they fit), but you'll sacrifice some comfort, so bear that in mind if you want a shoe you can also wear for long routes outside, or just don't like taking your shoes off once you've put them on. Laces are generally more adjustable than slippers or Velcro, so you can tweak the fit a little more, but I personally prefer the convenience of Velcro or a slipper as I like to take my shoes off a lot.

Hope that was at least slightly helpful and not too stream of consciousness.

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

My pair before my current (both La Sportiva) fit pretty well except there was one pressure point right on the knuckle of my big toes. My toes responded by growing a little nub of bone - it looks a little weird. The shoes would really start to hurt after about an hour, even though they fit great at the start. My current shoes fit very slightly better and don't have this pressure on the toe. I'm glad I spent the extra $20 on my new shoes because it hurts so much less. So watch out for pressure points I guess?

Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005

bartlebyshop posted:

My toes responded by growing a little nub of bone - it looks a little weird. The shoes would really start to hurt after about an hour, even though they fit great at the start. My current shoes fit very slightly better and don't have this pressure on the toe.
File it off! Chances are your shoes will fit great once the extra skin is gone too since they will have stretched to accomody it! Had the same prob. All good now after 20 mins with a glass nail file.

Tarnien
Jul 4, 2003
Champion of the World!!!
In addition to the sizing, there are really only a couple of other factors that go into a shoe: closing system (lace, velcro, slipper, etc), downturn toe, heel style, and type of rubber come to mind.

The closing system is personal preference. I use lace outside because they fit a little more snug, but velcro indoors for the convenience. Slippers are good too. If you're climbing strictly in the gym, I'd go with velcro or slipper.

Downturn: If you're climbing 5.11, you don't need any real downturn. Avoid shoes like Solutions, Dragons, Talons, etc. These will cost extra and won't be of any use until you start climbing on more overhung stuff. Look for something with a flat bottom, like Evolv Defy, Five Ten Galileo, Five Ten Coyote VCS, La Sportiva Katana, etc.

Heel style: Some heels are just rubber, some have teeth, some have grooves. This is really personal preference again, as none really work better than others. Just make sure your heel fits snugly inside the heel cup without a lot of dead space (Five Tens, in my experience, have a lot of dead space. La Sportivas fit my heel much better).

Type of Rubber: They're all different, but they all work well. If you buy from one of the big companies (Evolv, Five Ten, Sportiva, Mad Rock, etc.), the rubber will be fine.

The reason expensive shoes like Solutions and Team 5.10s and such are expensive is because they're designed to hold their shape (downturn) after lots of use, and because they drive your foot into an aggressive position. If you're not into hard overhung bouldering, they're wasted money. Buy something in the $70-120 range and you'll be happy with them. If you go to the store and there's a pair of shoes on sale for $20 that fit you well, buy them. There's nothing wrong with a cheap pair of climbing shoes.

Personally, I found a few types of shoes that fit me well, and just buy a new pair every time the old one dies out.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Tarnien posted:

In addition to the sizing, there are really only a couple of other factors that go into a shoe: closing system (lace, velcro, slipper, etc), downturn toe, heel style, and type of rubber come to mind.

The closing system is personal preference. I use lace outside because they fit a little more snug, but velcro indoors for the convenience. Slippers are good too. If you're climbing strictly in the gym, I'd go with velcro or slipper.

Downturn: If you're climbing 5.11, you don't need any real downturn. Avoid shoes like Solutions, Dragons, Talons, etc. These will cost extra and won't be of any use until you start climbing on more overhung stuff. Look for something with a flat bottom, like Evolv Defy, Five Ten Galileo, Five Ten Coyote VCS, La Sportiva Katana, etc.

Heel style: Some heels are just rubber, some have teeth, some have grooves. This is really personal preference again, as none really work better than others. Just make sure your heel fits snugly inside the heel cup without a lot of dead space (Five Tens, in my experience, have a lot of dead space. La Sportivas fit my heel much better).

Type of Rubber: They're all different, but they all work well. If you buy from one of the big companies (Evolv, Five Ten, Sportiva, Mad Rock, etc.), the rubber will be fine.

The reason expensive shoes like Solutions and Team 5.10s and such are expensive is because they're designed to hold their shape (downturn) after lots of use, and because they drive your foot into an aggressive position. If you're not into hard overhung bouldering, they're wasted money. Buy something in the $70-120 range and you'll be happy with them. If you go to the store and there's a pair of shoes on sale for $20 that fit you well, buy them. There's nothing wrong with a cheap pair of climbing shoes.

Personally, I found a few types of shoes that fit me well, and just buy a new pair every time the old one dies out.

I agree with you in general, but there is tons of overhung stuff easier than 5.11 which would benefit from a downturned shoe.

One other thing that also varies from shoe to shoe is the stiffness of the forefoot platform. Some shoes are better for edging because that section of the sole is more stiff and you can plant it more securely on a tiny protrusion.

Keep in mind also that there is a guy who works in my gym who regularly cruises through V6 problems in a pair of Vans, so for all the difference a pair of shoes can make, they won't work miracles or anything.

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

Sigmund Fraud posted:

File it off! Chances are your shoes will fit great once the extra skin is gone too since they will have stretched to accomody it! Had the same prob. All good now after 20 mins with a glass nail file.

I don't think it's just extra skin? If I poke it there's a nice layer of skin on top but a definitely noticeable hard bump of what feels like bone. These old shoes lasted me 1.5 years and finally developed a toe-hole so I'm fine sticking with my new ones. But thank you for the tip! If it happens again I will keep it in mind.

Tarnien
Jul 4, 2003
Champion of the World!!!

armorer posted:

I agree with you in general, but there is tons of overhung stuff easier than 5.11 which would benefit from a downturned shoe.

One other thing that also varies from shoe to shoe is the stiffness of the forefoot platform. Some shoes are better for edging because that section of the sole is more stiff and you can plant it more securely on a tiny protrusion.

Keep in mind also that there is a guy who works in my gym who regularly cruises through V6 problems in a pair of Vans, so for all the difference a pair of shoes can make, they won't work miracles or anything.

I'm not saying there isn't downturned stuff easier than 5.11, just that the downturned shoes are designed for holding onto little foot chips with very small edges under roofs. Most of the easier roof climbing involves big, flat feet that wouldn't necessarily be helped much by a downturned shoe. Regardless, the tradeoff you'd lose in terms of making flat wall climbing harder/more uncomfortable would make me recommend avoiding anything downturned until you're sure it's what you need.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Tarnien posted:

I'm not saying there isn't downturned stuff easier than 5.11, just that the downturned shoes are designed for holding onto little foot chips with very small edges under roofs. Most of the easier roof climbing involves big, flat feet that wouldn't necessarily be helped much by a downturned shoe. Regardless, the tradeoff you'd lose in terms of making flat wall climbing harder/more uncomfortable would make me recommend avoiding anything downturned until you're sure it's what you need.

That is probably true. I have a couple different pairs of shoes at this point, so I can pick and choose if I feel like it. Most of the time now I just wear a pair of Mythos, because they are remarkably comfortable and I can leave them on for extended periods of time. They are definitely not my best climbing shoe though.

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA

bartlebyshop posted:

I don't think it's just extra skin? If I poke it there's a nice layer of skin on top but a definitely noticeable hard bump of what feels like bone. These old shoes lasted me 1.5 years and finally developed a toe-hole so I'm fine sticking with my new ones. But thank you for the tip! If it happens again I will keep it in mind.

Is it a bunion?

sat on my keys!
Oct 2, 2014

Papercut posted:

Is it a bunion?

Nope, it's on the joint between the phalanges of the toe, not between the proximal phalanx and the metatarsal. It's not very big

jackchaos
Aug 6, 2008
Got invited to setter showdown, which is a comp for setters. Anyone have comp route setting tips?

MMD3
May 16, 2006

Montmartre -> Portland
just getting back into it after a few years of not climbing actively. Planet Granite opened a gym here in Portland and it's pretty incredible so I broke down and joined.

I realized I need some decent pants, can anyone recommend me some good climbing pants? We have a Prana store in town and I've always liked their stuff in the past but not really sure which models to look for. I can also hit REI or Patagonia to check out others.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Prana Zion Stretch are sweet climbing pants (and wear all the time pants, they are awesome pants).

Papercut
Aug 24, 2005

The quickest substitution in the history of the NBA

spwrozek posted:

Prana Zion Stretch are sweet climbing pants (and wear all the time pants, they are awesome pants).

I'm wearing them right now.

ploots
Mar 19, 2010

spwrozek posted:

Prana Zion Stretch

These are my favorite pair of pants.

French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience
Mad that below the knee prana mojos don't exist anymore! Anyone got a stretchy long short recommendation?

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
Not clothes-chat, but has anyone been bouldering at the Sportrock in Alexandria, VA? How is it?

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Ravenfood posted:

Not clothes-chat, but has anyone been bouldering at the Sportrock in Alexandria, VA? How is it?

It's pretty good. Relatively large bouldering area for a gym that has both bouldering and top rope. I don't go that often, but every time I've been the majority of the problems I've done were interesting. I'm not sure how common it is since I haven't seen it any of the other gyms I've been to, but they set routes 'E' routes, which are easier than a V0, which is nice if someone wants to come how doesn't climb often or has never climbed as some people will either struggle on V0s or just not be able to climb that many.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011
Awesome, thanks.

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Sigmund Fraud
Jul 31, 2005

jackchaos posted:

Got invited to setter showdown, which is a comp for setters. Anyone have comp route setting tips?
Bat hang finish and make a really reachy overhanging move to force people to do a figure-4. Avoid building dynamic moves between mono pockets and climb with your shirt off??

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