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jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


Tab8715 posted:

On the same subject is Windows Server DHCP the most widely used DHCP Service? It seems immensely popular and I've never seen anything else dishing out addresses.

I'm sure in windows shops it is. Doubtful anywhere else though. I wouldn't use it on a huge network.

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skooky
Oct 2, 2013

Zero VGS posted:

Please don't run a DHCP server on Windows, use your L3 switch or router.


Jesus loving christ..

Roargasm
Oct 21, 2010

Hate to sound sleazy
But tease me
I don't want it if it's that easy

Tab8715 posted:

On the same subject is Windows Server DHCP the most widely used DHCP Service? It seems immensely popular and I've never seen anything else dishing out addresses.

I use Zentyal at home because I'm a nerd but Windows DHCP comes out of the box with easy to use filters, multiple scope assignments, premade options, WDS support, etc.

e: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2132.txt I'm going to use a monitor and a mouse thanks for the advice though :v:

Roargasm fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Dec 28, 2014

BurgerQuest
Mar 17, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Is this whole dhcp chat not some confusion about ip-helper ?

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

Tab8715 posted:

On the same subject is Windows Server DHCP the most widely used DHCP Service? It seems immensely popular and I've never seen anything else dishing out addresses.
I would guess that dhcpd is the most popular, since it ships on every linksys and netgear router. Windows DHCP is probably the most popular in businesses above 50 users.

jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


adorai posted:

I would guess that dhcpd is the most popular, since it ships on every linksys and netgear router. Windows DHCP is probably the most popular in businesses above 50 users.

You got that backwards. Dhcpd is the most popular but once you get above 50 users you're going back to dhcpd.

Bhodi
Dec 9, 2007

Oh, it's just a cat.
Pillbug
Of all the things to get spergy about... Come be in IT! Isn't this wonderful? We have MULTIPLE sections on the forums to be pedantic about this stuff.

Also: spanning tree what what?

Bhodi fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Dec 28, 2014

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
I've always seen it deployed on the local domain controller or DNS server, with whatever device is handling layer 3 functions relaying requests via ip helper.

adorai
Nov 2, 2002

10/27/04 Never forget
Grimey Drawer

jaegerx posted:

You got that backwards. Dhcpd is the most popular but once you get above 50 users you're going back to dhcpd.

I've been in multiple enterprise environments, including fortune 50 environments, and never seen anything other than windows dhcp (except for the one place that still had novell running, lol).

jaegerx
Sep 10, 2012

Maybe this post will get me on your ignore list!


I don't care, I highly doubt it, but whatever I've been wrong before. I really doubt Apple is running Windows DHCP but whatever. Point Click have fun.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy

skooky posted:

Jesus loving christ..

Oh screw you guys, never in my life have I seen anything go wrong with DHCP on a catalyst, but I've also done a decade of Windows 2003 dhcp servers and holy hell why would you trust your network's connectivity to anything running Windows?

Full disclosure, my shop is currently running DHCP on Windows and both the other IT guy and me took one look and both said yeah we gotta put this on the switches.

What is the big objection? That it is harder to manage?

adorai posted:

I've been in multiple enterprise environments, including fortune 50 environments, and never seen anything other than windows dhcp (except for the one place that still had novell running, lol).

I came into a fortune 500 a few years back and for a year straight we were running static addresses with a spreadsheet. The Windows DCs were so hosed that a CCIE couldn't even figure out why they were slow to assign IPs or failed altogether, he was the guy who eventually put DHCP on the core switch and all was right in the world.

Bhodi
Dec 9, 2007

Oh, it's just a cat.
Pillbug
I don't disagree with your comments but

Zero VGS posted:

The Windows DCs were so hosed that a CCIE couldn't even figure out

:lol: that you even asked him to try, of course he instantly went "gently caress this gui poo poo" and stuck it on what he knows.

Bhodi fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 28, 2014

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


I'm sure a totally hosed switch also does a pretty bad job at DHCP, I don't get your point.

Running DHCP on Windows allows you to have redundancy, it's all included in your existing backups, anyone who can use Windows Server can reserve addresses, and it all ties in nicely with DNS so people don't have to gently caress around with IP addresses, which is important if we ever go to IPv6.

I've never seen a reason not to let Windows handle DHCP duties, even less so since Server 2012.

Obviously this assumes you're running a Windows network (AD etc.) before someone gets all :smuggo: about that.

Lord Dudeguy
Sep 17, 2006
[Insert good English here]
Holy poo poo the DHCP rage.

Use what is best for your environment and move on (As long as you're not running your business DHCP on a WRT54G :colbert:).

We're a Windows shop where I'm the only admin with non-Windows experience. We want redundancy, policies, and ease-of-use. We're using Windows 2012 DHCP. Them's the breaks.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy

Thanks Ants posted:

Running DHCP on Windows allows you to have redundancy, it's all included in your existing backups, anyone who can use Windows Server can reserve addresses, and it all ties in nicely with DNS so people don't have to gently caress around with IP addresses, which is important if we ever go to IPv6.

Counterpoint, switches can easily have redundancy too, and your switch/router configs had drat well better be in your existing backups.

Bhodi posted:

I don't disagree with your comments but


:lol: that you even asked him to try, of course he instantly went "gently caress this gui poo poo" and stuck it on what he knows.

To be fair we were just trying to get back in spec with the rest of the organization and they have the CCIE guys basically on-call so we figured might as well have him take a crack at it.

I dunno, maybe my Windows servers have blue-screened one too many dozen times and I just can't trust them to actually serve any more.

Lord Dudeguy
Sep 17, 2006
[Insert good English here]

Zero VGS posted:

Counterpoint, switches can easily have redundancy too, and your switch/router configs had drat well better be in your existing backups.

Not trying to feed the fires here, but is there a way to centrally manage all your DHCP configs? Just sounds like you're going to have a lot of switches with unique configs that you need to juggle.

Our environment has two Win2k12 DHCP servers in dynamic failover mode, and all our routers and layer 3 switches just IP-Helper to them. That way, I only make a DHCP change once, and it applies to all of our sites, and is redundant and backed up regularly.

Bitch Stewie
Dec 17, 2011

Zero VGS posted:

I dunno, maybe my Windows servers have blue-screened one too many dozen times and I just can't trust them to actually serve any more.

Not to get into a pissing contest but servers these days just don't blue screen for fun - if they are, and given your comments about how unreliable your Windows DHCP server are, it might say more about something in your Windows environment than it does Windows DHCP as a product.

Lord Dudeguy
Sep 17, 2006
[Insert good English here]

Bitch Stewie posted:

Not to get into a pissing contest but servers these days just don't blue screen for fun - if they are, and given your comments about how unreliable your Windows DHCP server are, it might say more about something in your Windows environment than it does Windows DHCP as a product.

I understand his argument where if you want something with a few million years' uptime, you'd use Cisco IOS or a *nix of some sort. I've built a DHCPD server or two about 6 years ago that I'm pretty sure are still running.

Hell, I get a little nervous when I see a Windows server with an uptime longer than 100 days... like it's some sort of glitchy time bomb. Completely unfounded, I know, but the reputation is there and it's hard to shake.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


Some things only let you pick one IP helper / DHCP relay target :argh:

Thanks Ants fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Dec 28, 2014

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Zero VGS posted:

To be fair we were just trying to get back in spec with the rest of the organization and they have the CCIE guys basically on-call so we figured might as well have him take a crack at it.

I dunno, maybe my Windows servers have blue-screened one too many dozen times and I just can't trust them to actually serve any more.

Well of course a CCIE is going to say "use this Cisco solution". And if you have CCIEs there, odds are you have people who should be able figure out WHY the Windows servers are BSOD all the time. "I dunno, just don't trust those shifty-eyed Windows Servers" is not a root cause. BSODs happen for a reason, it may be obscure, but there is always a reason.

Bitch Stewie
Dec 17, 2011

Lord Dudeguy posted:

I understand his argument where if you want something with a few million years' uptime, you'd use Cisco IOS or a *nix of some sort. I've built a DHCPD server or two about 6 years ago that I'm pretty sure are still running.

Hell, I get a little nervous when I see a Windows server with an uptime longer than 100 days... like it's some sort of glitchy time bomb. Completely unfounded, I know, but the reputation is there and it's hard to shake.

So just run a pair like you would domain controllers or anything with a SPOF.

I'm not trying to claim that Windows is more stable, reliable, whatever term you want to use than a switch/router where the vendor has 100% control over the code and hardware, but in an AD environment, given how nicely Windows DHCP and DNS integrates, I'd need a compelling reason not to use them.

Plus the way it was written kind of sounded like "The Cisco guy said we should use Cisco" which is little bit like saying Turkeys don't vote for Christmas :)

Proteus Jones
Feb 28, 2013



Lord Dudeguy posted:

I understand his argument where if you want something with a few million years' uptime, you'd use Cisco IOS or a *nix of some sort. I've built a DHCPD server or two about 6 years ago that I'm pretty sure are still running.

Hell, I get a little nervous when I see a Windows server with an uptime longer than 100 days... like it's some sort of glitchy time bomb. Completely unfounded, I know, but the reputation is there and it's hard to shake.

DCHPD is something else, and I don't see anyone saying that's a bad idea (it isn't). What is dumbfounding is the idea that a switch is good place to host a dhcp server in any kind of robust network. The only time I might consider it is if I'm rolling out, say, 100s or 1000s of identical retail environments (same VLAN design, same subnets, etc...) and NATing back in to the DC. Even then, I'd probably look at setting up a little 1U BSD/Linux/Windows server to handle things like trap forwarding, forwarding syslogs to an aggregator and DHCP.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Zero VGS posted:

Oh screw you guys, never in my life have I seen anything go wrong with DHCP on a catalyst, but I've also done a decade of Windows 2003 dhcp servers and holy hell why would you trust your network's connectivity to anything running Windows?
I ran a Windows NT4 server with more than a year and a half of uptime. It hasn't gotten any less stable since then. There's security issues to manage, and that's precisely why you configure failover clustering with whatever solution you choose so you can do rolling restarts. This is sysadmin 101 stuff.

Zero VGS posted:

Full disclosure, my shop is currently running DHCP on Windows and both the other IT guy and me took one look and both said yeah we gotta put this on the switches.
You appear to be confusing cause and effect. I have no idea what the value of this statement is.

Zero VGS posted:

What is the big objection? That it is harder to manage?
The DHCP options in most L3 switches are pretty loving crippled if you want to do any kind of real integration with an Active Directory environment (and NX-OS notably doesn't support DHCP servers at all). They don't do DNS dynamic updates with Kerberos unless you poo poo CPIPE all over your infrastructure, they don't have any IPAM features, they don't have any per-scope access control. Auditing is abysmal. Scripting options are very, very limited. It might work great for a shop full of static IP addresses where the sysadmins and the helpdesk are also the network admins but it's inappropriate for an environment where people don't want to wait two days to get a new computer set up.

By no stretch does everything need to be Windows, though DHCP in 2012 is leaps and bounds ahead of most other offerings. But ISC dhcpd and the various wrappers like Infoblox or Men and Mice are much better, much more full-featured offerings than the bullshit you're gonna get from your core.

Zero VGS posted:

I came into a fortune 500 a few years back and for a year straight we were running static addresses with a spreadsheet. The Windows DCs were so hosed that a CCIE couldn't even figure out why they were slow to assign IPs or failed altogether, he was the guy who eventually put DHCP on the core switch and all was right in the world.
I had a Windows computer where all my documents were all over the place, it was a huge mess. I moved over to a Mac and organized all the documents in folders and surprise, the Mac is much cleaner!

Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 28, 2014

Proud Christian Mom
Dec 20, 2006
READING COMPREHENSION IS HARD
if you havin' dhcp problems i feel bad for you son
i got 99 problems, but bad windows admins aint one

Lord Dudeguy
Sep 17, 2006
[Insert good English here]
Got it. I was just afraid I was about to venture into crazy-town here with the heated pro/anti-2012 argument.

2012 w/ IP-Helper remains King Under the Mountain for me.

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
I so want to be the infrastructure guy now that puts in a purchase order for layer 3 switches and justifies it with "for DHCP, duh"

abigserve
Sep 13, 2009

this is a better avatar than what I had before
A reminder to make sure you backup your DHCP databases off box if you're using routers/switches instead of servers!

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009


Holy gently caress someone else has heard of Infoblox :stare:

I used to work at a moderately large ISP (not Comcast huge, but > 100,000 customers) and they were all in on Infoblox for DHCP and IPAM. Mostly because of the slick GUI and API, since anything having an actual API in like 2008 was semi impressive. We (and by we I mean the horrible executives that drove me to quit) paid them an enormous amount of money per box, like a 20x markup on what the hardware alone must have cost. Wonder if they've changed their business model since in today's market there can't be that many idiots willing to pay $alot for a loving ISC DHCP appliance.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Docjowles posted:

Holy gently caress someone else has heard of Infoblox :stare:

I used to work at a moderately large ISP (not Comcast huge, but > 100,000 customers) and they were all in on Infoblox for DHCP and IPAM. Mostly because of the slick GUI and API, since anything having an actual API in like 2008 was semi impressive. We (and by we I mean the horrible executives that drove me to quit) paid them an enormous amount of money per box, like a 20x markup on what the hardware alone must have cost. Wonder if they've changed their business model since in today's market there can't be that many idiots willing to pay $alot for a loving ISC DHCP appliance.
I'm laughing at the notion that InfoBlox's API was "actual." You mean that thing with binary blobs called from Perl, where each successive firmware release is incompatible with all other API library versions, and the only way to test that your scripts will continue working is to break your cluster and try a new version pair? I've heard it got better and added a stable REST-style API recently, but gently caress that thing a few years ago.

Server 2012 as a DHCP server is amazing for no other reason than that PowerShell is not a complete piece of poo poo (and the cmdlets are actually, in general, rather good). The only thing keeping it from going from good to great as a complete solution is the total lack of IPAM features.

Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Dec 29, 2014

Docjowles
Apr 9, 2009

Misogynist posted:

I'm laughing at the notion that InfoBlox's API was "actual." You mean that thing with binary blobs called from Perl, where each successive firmware release is incompatible with all other API library versions, and the only way to test that your scripts will continue working is to break your cluster and try a new version pair?

... yes :smithicide: Apparently I'd repressed quite how awful it was. It's all flooding back. Jerk.

Though really my point is how far we've come as an industry. Less than 10 years ago, having some semblance of an API--even a loving awful one--was unusual and commanded a huge price premium. You could write custom functionality yourself without paying a consultant high six figures to implement it. Now that capability is basic table stakes, not a high-priced selling point.

This is an awesome time to be in tech.

BurgerQuest
Mar 17, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Misogynist posted:

I'm laughing at the notion that InfoBlox's API was "actual." You mean that thing with binary blobs called from Perl, where each successive firmware release is incompatible with all other API library versions, and the only way to test that your scripts will continue working is to break your cluster and try a new version pair? I've heard it got better and added a stable REST-style API recently, but gently caress that thing a few years ago.

Server 2012 as a DHCP server is amazing for no other reason than that PowerShell is not a complete piece of poo poo (and the cmdlets are actually, in general, rather good). The only thing keeping it from going from good to great as a complete solution is the total lack of IPAM features.

I thought there was an IPAM role?

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-au/library/dn268500.aspx

disclaimer: i am not a windows admin.

1000101
May 14, 2003

BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY BIRTHDAY FRUITCAKE!

Zero VGS posted:

Counterpoint, switches can easily have redundancy too, and your switch/router configs had drat well better be in your existing backups.

As a CCIE I would blow my brains out before I tried managing DHCP leases for servers, PXE, phones, desktops and wireless clients on a switch or router. Set up DHCP relay and leave that poo poo to server admins and make sure helpdesk monkeys can get read-only access through MMC or some web based management. Nevermind the whole "dynamic DNS updates" aspect of it.

Windows 2012 makes it pretty easy and if you're the network guy it's nice to delegate poo poo like DHCP management to others.

quote:

I've also done a decade of Windows 2003 dhcp servers and holy hell why would you trust your network's connectivity to anything running Windows?

We trust windows to provide authentication services for several thousand users every day which is pretty important for accessing network resources.

I don't mean to dogpile here but Window is pretty reliable these days and even in 2003 if you're seeing frequent blue screens you should determine the root cause.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?
Anyone looking at a windows PC with a problem and just goes "heh, windows" shouldn't be giving anyone windows advice.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
More like Windblows, am I right, guys? :chord:

We need a version of smugdog with like a big ol' neckbeard.

kujeger
Feb 19, 2004

OH YES HA HA

Roargasm
Oct 21, 2010

Hate to sound sleazy
But tease me
I don't want it if it's that easy
"If nothing else, Linux users are smart, and their greatest challenge is to find smart ways to prove it to you"

-Powershell In A Month of Lunches

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair

Roargasm posted:

"If nothing else, Linux users are smart, and their greatest challenge is to find smart ways to prove it to you"

-Powershell In A Month of Lunches

That book teaches so much more than just PowerShell :allears:

mayodreams
Jul 4, 2003


Hello darkness,
my old friend

dogstile posted:

Anyone looking at a windows PC with a problem and just goes "heh, windows" shouldn't be giving anyone windows advice.

This. My computing life started off at 13 years old with a Performa 600CD Mac, and that begat about a decade of winblows, windoze, etc type of disdain for anything other than the chosen platform. Around the age of reason, I finally had built my first pc (Althon XP 1700+) running XP but continued to be a Mac evangelist through college. It should be pointed out that was just finishing college when the Intel transition started, and Apple was not the consumer favorite it is now. I came to love Windows with 7, and I even enjoy 8.1 a lot as long as it has a Start Menu replacement.

The point of this story is that 'WINDOZE LOL' is perpetrated pubescent and pre-pubescent trolls, or are minimally the uneducated. I willing admit to being a raging Apple rear end in a top hat for a long time, but I see value on in all 3 platforms now, and can use any one of them today both on the desktop and the data center. I am primarily a Windows Engineer and love things like AD/DNS/DHCP and wouldn't imagine separating them out for a business of any legit size because 'zomg bluescreens!'

Gucci Loafers
May 20, 2006

Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?


Wow, DHCP Chat...

Yea, that kind of proves my assumption that Windows Server is the dominant DHCP Provider but it's interesting to hear about the other players. Hell, you can even setup IBMi to be DHCP.

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psydude
Apr 1, 2008

Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*.
I really don't care which enterprise operating system an organization uses as long as it meets the organization's mission and is properly implemented and supported. As my current client demonstrates, you can run an almost fully *nix environment and have it be about as useful as a steaming pile of poo poo if your sysadmins don't know what they're doing and management never bothers to implement nor enforce a framework for documentation or change control.

I think I can also safely say that I keep my prejudices and preferences for consumer products out of my professional life. So, much in the same way that I realize that it's impractical to use a $16,000 stackable layer 3 switch on my home network, I also recognize that my preference regarding iThings versus kickin' rad gaming rigs running Windows is pretty much useless when applied to an enterprise network.

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