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Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!
One thing I had wanted to say but forgot was that the "serial numbers filed off" games mentioned in FMguru's post became quite different from their source material.

CP2020 arguably takes more influence from cyberpunk anime than from the novels directly, leading to a much more superhero-blockbuster-movie type of game. Vampire plays very differently from its source material, but unlike CP2020, it's not because the authors paid more attention to Near Dark and Lost Boys than they did to Anne Rice, but because of emergent gameplay. The game went from "personal horror" to "Mafia horror" to "action horror." Requiem is more-or-less explicitly Mafia horror.

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Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Halloween Jack posted:

One thing I had wanted to say but forgot was that the "serial numbers filed off" games mentioned in FMguru's post became quite different from their source material.

CP2020 arguably takes more influence from cyberpunk anime than from the novels directly, leading to a much more superhero-blockbuster-movie type of game.

I concur. It's very clear from CP2013 that they were getting influence from novels and cinema of the time, including marginal stuff like Overdrawn At The Memory Bank, which is where one of the interfaces for the Net made everything like '30s/'40s gangster pulp cinema came from. People forget that Walter Jon Williams was a playtester for CP2013 and that an adaptation of "Hardwired" was one of the first books published after the core system. But by the time CP2020 came out, cyberpunk anime like Bubblegum Crisis, Cyber City Oedo 808, and Megazone 23 had begun filtering in either legally or through bootlegs, along with manga like Appleseed and Ghost In The Shell and a lot of the visual style got copied by guys like Paolo Parente and Studio Straelibre, Mike Jackson, and others.

Grnegsnspm
Oct 20, 2003

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarian 2: Electric Boogaloo

theironjef posted:

It's always like just D&D except the author is really mad about the bullshit crossbow loading time, or the incubation period of old-timey diseases. Like "Man I like this RPG but I saw an episode of Ancient Warfare and I can no longer tolerate these crossbow loading shenanigans. It's time someone came up with a better way!"

So since we did the podcast already I was able to do some research on this guy. Turns out that he apparently just read a whole poo poo load of books on tips and tricks to be a better writer. Which means my "Favorite Thing" of the mechanic where you have a Motivation and then a Flaw that directly impedes that was just something he lifted wholesale from a book on writing. Also, he ended up using that Fairies in Nightgowns picture for a novel he wrote since the player's handbook for Fantasy Imperium never materialized...for some reason. I guess he always wanted to be a writer and the RPG thing was just a weird side project. Looks like it came from him probably looking at a roleplaying book and going "I could do that. How hard could writing an RPG be." Which explains why everything is just either written out with no explanation of how it works in game (like the spells) or in a chart because he didn't know or care about mechanics at all.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

The wet fairy art at the back is by comics artist Greg Land, who works or has worked on stuff like FF4 for Marvel. It's odd that it's him in the back of this book that's apparently just lifted directly from other sources, because Land has been called out a few times for not just tracing his pictures from porn, but also for just lifting art directly from other Marvel artists, as discussed here: http://lubbockonline.com/hero/2007/08/13/why-greg-land-is-a-rotten-excuse-for-an-artist#.VK2VaHtUVjY

LeastActionHero
Oct 23, 2008

Platonicsolid posted:

(-10) Is a Woman?

No, just a reference.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

The storm has a name... - Let's Read TORG


Part 5: Metaversal metaphysics

Okay, now it's time to get to the interesting stuff: how the Torg mulitverse works and how realities interact. (spoiler: confusingly and violently)

This post is going to cover the next two chapters ("The Possibility Wars and the High Lords" and "Everlaws and Axioms") because they're full of interconnected ideas. Get your psyduck emotes ready.

--

Every distinct reality is referred to as a cosm, and the Torg multiverse is referred to as the cosmverse. Under normal circumstances, cosms are all physically unconnected from each other with no way for people to move between them. Some cosms may be nearly identical, while others are completely unique. It's actually possible for two separate cosms to have completely different physical laws.

That was the multiverse for eons; each cosm evolving and changing by the actions of its inhabitants, and in turn shaping the people within it. But inevitably, someone had to throw the whole system out of whack.

Nobody knows who the first being was to discover other cosms beyond his or her own, but what is known is that this person created the first maelstrom bridge to travel between realities.

A maelstrom bridge is, well, a bridge created between two realities through a rip in space. People can walk back and forth over this bridge from one cosm to another. Picture a huge tower that drops out of a hole in space onto your world.

The discovery of the maelstrom bridge led to the discovery of the bridge's side-effect: reality storms. It's a multiversal rule that two realities can't occupy the same space at the same time. When the first bridge was created and activated, the two realities began clashing the instant the connection was made. Violent storms destroyed the bridge and everything in the surrounding area as the two cosms battled, and the expenditure of possibility energy from both cosms was enormous.

Of course, it wasn't long before someone learned how to harness that power for their own gain. Which brings us to the topic of Darkness Devices.

Nobody's really sure where the Darkness Devices came from; all that's known for certain is that they're not native to the cosms they've been discovered in. The popular theory is that they were created by an ancient entity known as The Nameless One as a means to destroy creation itself.

Every Darkness Device is unique, and all are seemingly intelligent (if not self-aware), and have one universal purpose: to destroy. To this end, they seek out those who can not only aid them in destruction, but are morally capable of spreading that destruction across realities. Darkness Devices allow their bonded master to create maelstrom bridges to other cosms, so they could suck those cosms dry of possibility energy. There are thousands of these possibility raiders, and they've destroyed countless worlds as they traveled across the multiverse.

Possibility raiders, also known as High Lords, have complete control over their cosms. Through their Darkness Devices, the High Lords were capable of altering cosms on a fundamental scale, stripping and altering the very possibilities that shaped that reality.

So how does one actually conquer another cosm?

As stated previously, you can't just drop a bridge into a new cosm and march troops into it. When the two realities meet, there's a huge storm that will destroy the bridge and everything in the immediate area on both ends. The trick to reality invasion is to create a realm, a sort of beachhead, in the cosm you're invading.

Prior to the full-scale invasion, a High Lord will drop a dimthread into the other cosm. Dimthreads are smaller maelstrom bridges that aren't intended to last for very long. It opens, drops off a few of the High Lord's possibility-rated agents, and is destroyed in a small reality storm. The agents are able to carry their own reality with them, and their primary mission is to plant artifacts called stelae.

Stelae have three very important functions. First off, when three stelae are set up in a triangle, they will form a boundary when a maelstrom bridge is dropped inside said triangle. This prevents the invaded reality from fighting back against the invading one, which "pours" down the bridge into the area defined by the stelae. Reality storms will still rage around the boundary, but the realm demarked by the stelae boundary will remain unaffected.


How reality invasions work

Second, stelae will absorb the possibility energy of those people inside the realm. Normally, possibility energy flows from a person to their cosm and back again, each supporting the other. But when that person is in an alien reality, the possibility energy that would normally flow to his home cosm will instead be siphoned from him by the stelae and stored in the High Lord's Darkness Device for his own use later.


The circle of life, interrupted

(As an aside, one side-effect of this disruption of flow is that worlds conquered by High Lords invariably stagnate because the inhabitants can't feed possibilities to the cosm. Orrorsh, for example, has been run by the British Empire for about 300 years, and almost no social or technological advancement has taken place during this time. Terra (Dr. Mobius's homeworld), on the other hand, was never conquered by Mobius, so it's still advancing socially and technologically.)

Third, stelae can empower the nearby agents of a High Lord, shunting stolen possibility energy to them.

Once the realm is established, expanding it is simply a matter of planing more stelae outside the realm's boundary and pumping some energy into them. Stelae will always link up in triangles, and cannot connect to more than six other stelae at a time.

Ultimately, the High Lord's goal is to completely conquer the new cosm by spreading his own reality and supplanting the invaded reality with his own.

quote:

In order to capture an area, two conditions must be met: the unliving reality of the High Lord's cosm must be successfully introduced within the stelae boundaries, and living beings who live in that reality, or living beings who are prepared to accept that reality, must be present. For a standard stelae area, it is estimated that 25,000 beings must be from the invading reality, or must be natives ready to accept the new reality.
(It should also be pointed out that a year or two later, a rule was added that stated that High Lords could expand their realms into areas without the believers, but it cost them a ton of possibility energy. Presumably this was to validate the fact that the Nile Empire was expanding into uninhabited desert and the CyberPapacy was expanding into the ocean.)

If the High Lord chooses a direct approach, armies or vast migrations of people from the invading cosm cross into the bounded realm as soon as the stelae are placed. Other High Lords are more devious, sending a greater number of agents to recruit natives prior to or just after the Bridge appears. These agents are often trained in rituals or processes for transforming converts, so they can help support the new reality.

Case in point: when Pope Malraux was preparing France for invasion, he sent his priests through months ahead of time to start converting people into the faithful of his particular brand of Catholicism. He managed to convert enough Core Earthers that, when he dropped his bridge (which appeared as a road of divine light) over Avignon, enough people in central France were prepped to accept Manga Verita's new reality. Baruk Kaah, on the other hand, just dropped a gigantic tree-bridge directly on Shae Stadium, sent thousands of troops swarming over, and called it a day.

As a High Lord expands the realm, new stelae-defined areas might not carry all of the invading reality through to the new part of the realm. Each zone (stelae-defined triangle) can be one of three types: pure, dominant, or mixed.

A pure zone contains one reality, period. Non-possibility rated people inside this type of zone will transform into inhabitants of the reality almost instantaneously as their possibilities are ripped away. Possibility-rated characters need to create reality bubbles around themselves to be able to use abilities not allowed by this reality.

In a dominant zone, there are two realities in conflict but one has the upper hand. People in mixed zones will still be changed to the dominant reality, but the process is much slower, taking weeks or even months as the steale drain their possibilities. People from other realities can use their abilities without needing a bubble, but there can be consequences if you're not careful.

Mixed zones are generally newly created zones. The two realities exist in a sort of equilibrium, but it's not a peaceful one. Mixed zones tend to be filled with reality storms as the two realities struggle for dominance. This struggle will also transform people into Storm Knights.

Speaking of normal people and transformation, this is an important bit of information to remember for when we get to the "How Do I Storm Knight" part of the review:

quote:

Eventually, an Ord in an alien pure or dominant area will be transformed into a close approximation of a "proper" denizen of that area. This transformation completely drains the character of possibility energy, as every iota of energy he possesses is used to survive the transformation. If a transformed character is later forced to transform again, he is destroyed.

Before we dive into the mechanics of how a reality operates, let's talk about Darkness Devices a bit more.

As stated, the ultimate goal of a Darkness Device is to destroy cosms, and to this end it will drain possibilities from a cosm and provide them to its High Lord.

Each Darkness Device is unique, and has its own "personality" and appearance. For example: Heketon, the Gaunt Man's Darkness Device, looks like a stone heart, whereas 3327's Darkness Device looks like a slim glossy-black laptop. Despite its appearance, a Darkness Device is immobile unless it choses to move. They're also drat near indestructible, with a Toughness of 200 (so -200 to your damage result if you try to attack it), and an effectively infinite amount of possibilities to spend. You could drop one in the sun and it wouldn't even scratch the paint. And yes, Darkness Devices have full stat blocks despite being effectively indestructible/literal plot devices.

On top of that, every Darkness Device has a few powers up its sleeve. These powers are common to all the Darkness Devices, and in addition each Device will have its own unique powers:
  • They can transfer possibilities to their High Lord or any willing subject, up to about four points an hour.
  • They can spend possibilities for their High Lord, getting around the "one point per action" rule.
  • They can communicate mentally with their High Lord or any being it has given possibility energy to.
  • Scan a stelae-bounded area for possibility-rated people, and "mark" them with a power called "soulstain" that marks these people for the High Lord and his minions.
  • Create stelae from scratch.
  • Reverse the High Lord's aging (or the aging of someone of his choosing) for three years.
  • Transfer itself to somewhere else in the realm or cosm.
  • Adjust the axioms of the realm or cosm, moving them up or down as desired (although this takes a while). We'll talk about the implications of this in a bit.
  • Increase the High Lord's stats based on how many realities he has conquered (1 reality = up to 7 stat points or 13 skill adds).
  • The creation of gospog.

A Darkness Device can only be bound to one person at a time, and the only way to break that connection is to kill the High Lord (good luck), for the High Lord to be transformed in a reality storm (again, good luck because High Lords generally stay put in their pure zones), or for the Darkness Device itself to sever the connection if it looks like its current owner isn't cutting the mustard.

Gospog are a High Lord's renewable mook resource. They are mindless slaves specifically designed to kill people, and are barely alive in any traditional sense.

Gospog are created by planting special Darkness Device-created seeds in specially prepared "gospog fields". And by "specially prepared" I mean "a field of corpses". This field can be used five times, and each successive planting will generate fewer, but stronger, gospog. The first planting will generate 10,000 gospog that look like traditional zombies and aren't much of an individual threat (although with that many, they don't need to be). Each successive planting will produce fewer but more powerful gospog, and their appearance and abilites wil vary from realm to realm. The fifth and final planting will only ever produce a single gospog, but it will be ridiculously powerful.

The Gaunt Man has also gifted his fellow raiders with ravagons. Ravagons are the survivors of a burned-out reality conquered by the Gaunt Man ages ago. Ravagons are winged lizard-people with the unique ability to track beings through their possibility energy. They're very dangerous, but fortunately for the most part the designers seemed to forget they existed for most of the adventures in the game line.

(And yes, this is the order things are presented in the book. We go from Darkness Devices to gospog and ravagons with no real transition.)

For those High Lords who want more than to just destroy worlds or rule with an iron fist, the point of doing all this is to get enough energy to become the Torg, the godlike ruler of the multiverse. This was the Gaunt Man's ultimate goal, and the reason he assembled his team of possibility raiders. But now that the Gaunt Man is trapped in a dimensional pocket getting destroyed and reborn every five seconds, the title is up for grabs and each High Lord is scrambling to get there before the others.

--

So now we understand how High Lords operate and what the Darkness Devices are capable of, and the types of rules and laws they can break. But what are those rules and laws, exactly?

The most important laws are called Everlaws, and they are universal to every cosm. In fact, they determine how cosms work and interact.

quote:

The Everlaw of One states that only one possibility from a set of two or more contradictory possibilities can become a reality at one time. In other words, a world in which you are going to die and stay alive at the same time is not allowed. Either you live or you don't.

The Everlaw of Two states that the living and the unliving are linked by the rules of their cosm, and this link causes possibility energy to flow between the living and the unliving. The living may use the possibility energy to create and change their world. Possibility energy is only generated when the living and unliving interact through the "axioms" of that world.

Basically, the Everlaw of One means that you can't exist in two states (or realities) at the same time, and the Everlaw of Two means that people are linked to their cosms through the flow of possibility energy. The Everlaw of Two is the weaker of the two laws, and as such it can be circumvented by Darkness Devices; this is how they drain possibility energy.

There were two more Everlaws added by the time Revised & Expanded Edition came out:

The Everlaw of Three states that in addition to the living and unliving parts of every cosm, there is a third part created from (or by) the cosmic force Aperios (who was mentioned at the start of my first Torg post). This part seeks to protect each cosm by manifesting as artifacts called eternity shards.

The Everlaw of Four is...uh...

quote:

The existence of the Everlaw of Four is a matter of some dispute; some see its effects as being a part of the Everlaw of Two while others consider it a companion to the Everlaw of Three. In effect the Everlaw of Four does fit somewhere between the second and third Everlaws. It’s placed fourth as a matter of convenience; the Everlaw of One stipulates that there is one outcome for every event, the Everlaw of Two states there are two sides of reality (living and unliving) and the Everlaw of Three adds a third part to reality, eternity shards.

The Everlaw of Four states that there is a second effect of the Everlaw of Two, and two twice is four. Also, its effect is seen as being complimentary but weaker than the Everlaw of Three so it has to come after it in the numbering scheme, which it couldn’t do if its effects are part of the Everlaw of Two.

Where the Everlaw of Three creates objects imbued with possibility energy that can be used to inspire and empower a reality, the Everlaw of Four creates living beings imbued with possibility energy that serve this same purpose. It does this by strengthening the connection that the living being has to the Everlaw of Two, which allows the being to amass and store larger amounts of possibility energy than normal. With this excess of possibility energy the being can change and affect the world much more dramatically than a normal living being. The Everlaw of Four is what’s responsible for the existence of possibility-rated beings.
So basically the Everlaws are there to fill in the metaphysical background that nobody cared about. For more fun, the Everlaw of Three is mentioned exactly once in the original core book, but was never defined until R&E came out.

Everlaws have no mechanical use, and are only there to validate the reality interaction mechanics and stuff. But...who cares? Why do they feel the need to set up all these complex rules to validate their fiction? There's nothing wrong with just saying "okay, here's how the various cosms interact" and leave it at that. It's like they're afraid people won't buy into their world unless they can back everything up with "facts" and weird-rear end laws.

Anyway. In addition to the Everlaws, each cosm is defined by its own individual axioms and world laws.

Axioms are the hard limits of what is currently possible in a cosm or realm. There are four axioms:
  • The Magic axiom determines the level and types of magic possible in the cosm.
  • The Social axiom determines the level of interaction and organization possible between the cosm's inhabitants.
  • The Spiritual axiom determines not only the types of religious metaphysical concepts available, but if miracles are possible.
  • The Technology axiom determines the highest level of scientific development possible.

Each axiom is rated from 0 (completely impossible) to 33 (transhuman perfection). The axiom values vary from cosm to cosm, and are always in effect. If someone tries to perform an action that is not supported by the local axioms, that creates a contradiction and the Everlaw of One kicks in. This can lead to devices and abilities not working at all, or complete transformation in the worst cases.

As an example, Core Earth has a social axiom of 21.

quote:

Pluralism, the balancing of many factions within a government and society, is possible. More inhabitants of a nation are enfranchised. Vast bureaucracies may be spawned to handle the increased social complexity.

The Living Land, however, has a social axiom of 7.

quote:

Village/agricultural organization possible. "Kings" are possible. The concept of land ownership is possible. Unfortunately, so is the concept of owning other intelligent beings. Semi-professional military and militia formed for common defense can exist. A combination sound/pictographic alphabet may be developed. Trade, epic poetry and sports are invented.

When the Living Land invaded, not only did Core Earth weaponry (tech axiom 23) just flat-out stop working in the Living Land (tech axiom 7), the military units sent in were unable to function because, when the troops entered the Living Land zones, the concepts of modern military structure stopped existing for them. It wasn't a case of them not being able to communicate with their immediate commander, they actually lost the ability to think "this guy is my military commander, representing a higher chain of command, and I'm supposed to listen to him."

Unfortunately, even though every reality has defined limits of how they fit into the axiom structure, the way the realms are presented doesn't always jive up with the numbers.

As the prime example of this problem, let's look at the Living Land. The cosm is basically "Jurrasic Park with lizard people" and has a tech axiom of 7. Not only that, but in the Living Land anything that is even remotely technological (such as, say, a lever or a rock for hittin' people) is forbidden by their race's main religion. Nunchucks are a tech 9 item, so they stop working in the Living Land. Whatever that means. Because while the game explains clearly that items above a reality's Tech axiom can't work, they don't clearly explain what that actually means in the game world itself. Do the chain links rot? Do people forget how the nunchucks work? As presented, the answer is "both".

Never mind that the Living Land's tech axiom is actually higher than the realm is described as having.

This is the tech axiom summary from the Living Land sourcebook:

quote:

The low Technological axiom of the Living Land makes only simple tools and weapons possible. Remember, the Tech axiom limits what a character can think of to solve a problem. A character from the Living Land with a high intelligence will be able to heal someone with primitive medicine, but could not perform brain surgery no matter what his skills, because thinking to that degree is simply not possible.

This is what's possible for a tech axiom 7 reality:

quote:

0 — No technology is possible.
2 — Fire making is invented. Small stone tools are possible.
3 — Advanced stone tool making possible. Animals may be domesticated and bred. Spears and clubs are state-of-the-art weapons. Armor made from animal products possible. Rafts and small river craft appear.
5 — Agriculture invented, but still practiced largely as a dietary supplement to hunting and gathering. Calendars based on easily visible phenomena maybe invented. The wheel or axled rollers first used for transportation. Fishing vessels (four or more beings, muscle powered)appear. Arithmetic may be invented.
7 — Metal is first smelted, alloys of softer metals appears. Potter's wheel appears, plow speeds agriculture. Glass, cloth, wine invented. Sea worthy ships are possible. Swords and daggers state of the art weapons. Bows are possible, but only with enough punch for small game. Oil lamps invented.

If anything, the Living Land should be tech axiom 2, maybe 3 tops to line up with all the fluff for the realm. Especially since metals in the Living Land decompse at an accelerated rate thanks to how reality works there.

A cosm's axioms can be changed by its inhabitants, although this is a slow process. For example, let's say we have a group of Core Earth scientists all working on some new technology. While they research and push the boundaries of knowledge, they're subconsciously spending possibilities and channeling them into the cosm itself. When they do enough research (and spend enough possibilities), the tech axiom will increase by one, and what is possible in the cosm will expand accordingly.

Unless you're a High Lord, in which case you can use the Darkness Device to alter a cosm's axioms at a much faster rate. This is what happened when Pope Malraux created the Cyberpapacy; the tech axiom there was originally around 7 or so (smelting metals and oil lamps were the highest "tech" possible"), but Malraux used his Darkness Device to crank it up to 26 (cybernetics) in a matter of weeks.

Where the axioms describe how a reality works, world laws are about how the reality operates within the structure of those limits.

Think of world laws as the "narrative physics" of a reality; they map out the overall tone and feel of the reality.

Some world laws are passive, meaning they're always in effect. One example is Nippon Tech's "Law of Profit", which states that the wealthier someone is, the less goods and services will cost them, whereas the poorer you are, the more things will cost. "The rich get richer" isn't just an economic theory, it's built into the fabric of that reality and has shaped the culture accordingly.

Other world laws are active, which means they have to be invoked by that reality's inhabitants. The prime example of an active law is the Nile Empire's "Law of Action", which lets the invoker spend two possibilities on a roll instead of just one like everybody else.

Every reality has three or four world laws, although Core Earth didn't get any until about halfway through the game line because I guess the designers forgot or something. Kind of like how they forgot that technically all of Core Earth should be a pure zone and thus make life incredibly difficult for characters from other realities.

I'll get more into axioms and world laws once I start talking about the individual cosms, but for now you've got the basics.

Now, the whole game is based around the idea of what happens when two realities with different axioms clash, right? What happens is you get a reality storm. These occur mostly around the borders of realms, but it's possible for them to happen inside realms if someone tries something outside the axiom levels. They appear as powerful reality-warping thunderstorms with winds of up to 100 miles an hour, and represent the changing of axiom values; in fact they're the physical manifestation of transformation.

Oh, and if you're p-rated, then you can actually invoke a reality storm on someone in an attempt to forcibly alter their reality. That will come up more in the next chapter, but a very common way for PCs to defeat bad guys was for them to invoke storms, change the bad guy to a reality where none of his powers or gear work, then proceed to beat him down. Exciting!

It's important to point out that some parts of a reality are so infused with the concepts of that reality, they actually can't be transformed. These are called hardpoints, and are like oases in the sea of a realm. Core Earth has a number of hardpoints, such as the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower. These objects project a bubble of Core Earth's reality out a number of miles, allowing Core Earth's axioms and world laws to function without interference. As a result, some major Core Earth cities such as Nee York or Paris have not changed despite being in enemy territory. Hardpoints can be moved if they're small enough, but it's not a good idea to do so because this causes their power to drain.

And now the book crashes headlong into another new concept (have I mentioned the book isn't organized very well?). I mentioned contradictions before; they're what happen when you try to use an item or ability not supported by local axioms.

When you use something you're not supposed to, you have to make a contradiction check. If whatever you're doing requires a roll, then that's effectively the check; otherwise you have to make a separate roll just to see if a contradiction happens. Depending on the type of contradiction and result of the roll, you can disconnect from your home reality.

The difficulty of the roll depends on the type of contradiction. There are three types:

A zero-case contradiction is what happens when the axiom level of your tool is below that of the reality you're in and the character using it. In this case, there's no check because the contradiction is so minor. So if someone from Core Earth (tech 23) brings a shortsword (tech 8) from Asyle to the Nile Empire (tech 24), that won't cause a contradiction because the technology level of the sword is possible in the Empire and Core Earth, despite the fact that this particular sword came from another reality altogether.

A one-case contradiction happens when the axioms of the tool are above than either the user or the realm, but not both. So a knight from Aysle (tech 15) is in Core Earth and tries to fire an assault rifle (tech 21). The rifle is allowed in Core Earth's axioms but not Asyle's so that's a one-case. If this happens, a roll of 1 means he disconnects.

A four-case contradiction is when the item's axioms are above both the user and the local axioms. This is someone from the Living Land trying to use an assault rifle in Asyle. In this case, you disconnect on a roll of 1-4.

Note that it doesn't matter how irrelevant the roll or item is; you still run a chance of disconnecting. If you're from Asyle, are currently in Core Earth, and are wearing blue jeans, then you might actually disconnect on a find roll because technically you're creating a one-case contradiction. With your pants.

Now, one question I know not a single one of you is thinking is, "but what happens if I throw something like a grenade somewhere grenades shouldn't be?" But don't worry; instead of not caring or saying "it holds on to it's axioms for a few seconds", it creates a long-range contradiction. Doing so can actually cause you shock damage if you roll low enough, but at least it won't make you disconnect.

So what does "disconnecting" mean? Well, it means that you're temporarily between two realities but not part of either. The multiple sets of axioms aren't allowed under the Everlaw of One, so it tries to settle you into one reality or the other. When you're disconnected, you can't create contradictions, collect Possibilities, or do anything that violates local axioms.

In case you're wondering what this looks like in-game, keep on wondering. They never describe disconnection in a non-mechanical sense, so I don't know if you just look out of it, or if there's any kinds of special effects where you kind of flicker between appearances or what.

What you can do is try to reconnect by rolling your reality skill. Doing so requires you to still have the item that cause the disconnection in the first place if you're not in your home reality. Attempting to reconnect just needs you to make the skill roll, with the difficulty number depending on both your original cosm and the cosm that caused the contradiction; the further apart the realities are, the harder it is to reconnect. If you're from the Cyberpapacy and disconnect in Core Earth, the reconnection difficulty is only 9, but if he was in the Living Land then it's 21.

It's important to note that you don't have to try to reconnect right away, but until you do reconnect you're cut off from a lot of things (such as gaining Possibilities/XP) so it's not something you want to put off.

Disconnecting sucks, but if it happens around or near a reality storm, then you run the risk of transformation. When this happens, you physically and mentally transform to a new reality; you lose all your Possibilities, your personal axioms change, you get a new set of world laws, and all your abilities and gear change to match your new axioms. The rule for transformation is living to living, unliving to unliving, which means that living things can't turn into inorganic things and vice versa. Transforming to Cyberpapal reality won't cause you to spontaneously grow cyberware (despite this happening in the game fluff), and a guy with a cyberleg transforming to Asyle doesn't grow his leg back (it'll probably change into a pegleg). We'll talk more about this next chapter.

Obviously, contradictions can be a huge pain in the rear end. Having all kinds of bad poo poo happen to you because you rolled a 1 crossing the street can slow a game down. To avoid this happening, you can spend a Possibility to create a reality bubble around yourself. For 15 minutes, the only axioms that matter are your own personal ones, and you only create contradictions if you're using something above your own axioms.

And smash cut the end of the chapter.

--

So. Confused yet?

I hate to keep repeating myself, but goddrat this book is organized terribly. Part of the reason it's hard to wrap your head around the game concepts is because they're not laid out in a logical order. The game talks about High Lords and Darkness Devices and reality invasion before it talks about the basic poo poo like axioms, then tangents into monster stat blocks. They keep describing the exceptions before they get to the rules.

They also spend way too much time trying to validate setting concepts. They didn't need Everlaws at all,
all they needed to say was "the axioms of two realities can't mix, and you can only be under one set at a
time". That's it. Everything else flows from that. You don't need this big metaphysic backing for it
because it doesn't matter. If I'm going to play your game, odds are I've bought into your setting already. But they have this strange need to explain why this is the case despite it not mattering.

And throughout the discussion of contradictions and transformation they keep bringing up the Everlaws. Contradiction doesn't happen because you did something not supported by local reality, it's because the Everlaw of One is trying to do a thing but you can use the Everlaw of Two to stop it by blah blah blah.

I mean, the Everlaw of Three only exists to give an in-setting reason why eternity shards exist, despite nobody apparently caring in the howevermany years it was before they added it to the rules.

It's like if you wanted to play Pokemon, and the first hour of the game was Professor Oak explains how evolution and/or genetic engineering made all these strange creatures that replaced "normal" animals and how they've affected society throughout history. That's not what I'm here for. I'm not here for a lecture, I'm here to play a cyberpunk who goes to the Forgotten Realms to punch ancient-Egyptian-themed bad guys in the face.

I feel like one of the big problems with the game is that the designers were worried their concepts wouldn't stand up on their own, so they had to shore them up to the point where the supports overshadow the thing they're supporting. (The other is one-way design, but I'll talk about that more later.)

NEXT TIME: Storm Knighting 101!

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Mostly, I'm wondering why I'd want to play a character from the Living Land or other low-axiom places, because while being a dinoman is cool it seems like the game punishes being the low-tech guy very heavily indeed.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Mors Rattus posted:

Mostly, I'm wondering why I'd want to play a character from the Living Land or other low-axiom places, because while being a dinoman is cool it seems like the game punishes being the low-tech guy very heavily indeed.

Characters from the Living Land do have access to interesting weapons (they have plants they can use as spears then re-plant) and some impressive miracles, so they're not useless in a fight or anything. But yes, they're going to have all sorts of problems since they're going to constantly be outside their axiom levels and thus have to worry about 1's or 1-4's all the time.

In fact, the Renegade Edinos template (the only Living Land template in the core set) has two items in his starting equipment (a musical greeting card and a TMNT t-shirt) that would cause him to risk disconnection constantly.

In fact, looking now I think there's three templates all told that come from The Living Land between the core set and the cosm sourcebook.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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That kinda sucks. I like reptiles in general and playing dinomen and lizardmen and poo poo, but I don't really like being punished for being the giant aztec doom lizard.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010
If the system wasn't intent on simulating everything then it'd be possible to be a Dinoman in Cyberpunkia, but it is so you can't. If the system ignored the relative "power levels" (ugh) of the realities and put these things on an even keel (Evil Mastermind points to Fate a lot and I agree), then you could have stuff like a dwarf blocking lasers with his shield and a cyborg riding dinosaurs without worrying about either of them being pasted.

There's also the problem that the way the axiom/reality system works is adversarial. Your characters have to spend their XP in order to avoid risking turning into cavemen and forgetting what they're doing, and the system doesn't care how irreverent your equipment is so you HAVE to do that constantly. Here's a better idea - this doesn't happen. You're the legendary Storm Knights, you can go where you want. OR, you turn into something that parallels what you are, but you keep your mind and knowledge and stuff. A cyberpunk sniper with an active camouflage system going to dinosaur world turns into a raptor-man with a longbow and chameleon skin, and then he whines about it. Maybe spending possibilities turns you back and gives you an advantage over the measly primitives!

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
And the dinos are all cutters too.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Evil Mastermind posted:

In fact, the Renegade Edinos template (the only Living Land template in the core set) has two items in his starting equipment (a musical greeting card and a TMNT t-shirt) that would cause him to risk disconnection constantly.

"Hey guys, what's that screaming coming from the bathroom?"
"Oh I think Thog went to take a dump and disconnected."
"I'm not cleaning that up."

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Technically it's possible to be a cyberlizardman, but this would require having your reality (and therefore axioms) transformed to those of the CyberPapacy. Which means that you lose access to all the neat stuff from your old reality (like miracles). There's zero mix-and-matching.

And it'd be so easy to fix! You could just say "what makes p-rated people dangerous is that they can mix their personal realities" or "you have to spend more possibilities to get ability X if you're not supposed to have it". But because of the Everlaws this can't happen. I'm guessing it's another "game balance" thing because if everyone can get cybernetics and implant a retractable magic sword then of course EVERYBODY would.

What makes it even sadder is that the cover of R&E shows a woman with a pistol, magic sword, and cyberarm, which is not technically possible without her risking disconnection all the time.

The Deleter
May 22, 2010

Evil Mastermind posted:

I'm guessing it's another "game balance" thing because if everyone can get cybernetics and implant a retractable magic sword then of course EVERYBODY would.

And everybody should. :colbert:

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
Yeah it seems odd that the storm knights are still beholden to the laws of the cosms, considering that they're obviously capable of conceiving of things outside of their cosm.

If I'm reading this correctly an Ord from the living lands wouldn't even be able to concieve of a gun. Where as a storm knight from the living lands could be taught about them but would paradoxically risk disconnection from actually utilizing that knowledge.

The game would be so much cooler if you could eventually become a 27/27/27/27 godking and start smashing faces in with your divine technomagic powered cyber-t-rex.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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I don't even need to be a cyberdino, I mean, I'd just like to be able to play a dinosaur without constantly getting hosed because I enjoy being able to sit in a car with my storm knight buddies on our way across town.

Especially because riding in my foot-powered flintstones car is not going to gently caress over Cyber-Kyosuke, the Corporate Ninja.

e: Because really, that's the thing, isn't it? Guys with higher axioms can use anything from lower-axiom places without any problems at all.

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jan 8, 2015

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Kurieg posted:

If I'm reading this correctly an Ord from the living lands wouldn't even be able to concieve of a gun. Where as a storm knight from the living lands could be taught about them but would paradoxically risk disconnection from actually utilizing that knowledge.
Correct on both counts.

quote:

The game would be so much cooler if you could eventually become a 27/27/27/27 godking and start smashing faces in with your divine technomagic powered cyber-t-rex.
Like, even just saying "you can only up your personal axioms X amount of times before you risk ripping yourself apart" would be fine. If Blarg the Barbarian wants a cyberarm, then let him have one, but I think it's also fair to say that doing that prevents him from getting pulp powers or something.

Ultimately it comes off as a lack of trust of the players. They seem to feel that OF COURSE everyone's going to make cybermagical T-Rexes if they can because the whole point of an RPG is to win, right? Gotta reign in those PCs or they might get too powerful!

Case in point: Nile Empire characters have access to pulp powers. Getting a power costs Possibilities of course, but you also have to keep paying out at the end of every adventure or you lose the power forever. Oh, and if you don't use the power at least once during an adventure you'd lose it forever. poo poo like spells and cybernetics, though? Those are one-and-done. You buy spells for a flat Possibility cost, and cyber just costs money. And both of those are way more powerful than pulp powers.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Mors Rattus posted:

e: Because really, that's the thing, isn't it? Guys with higher axioms can use anything from lower-axiom places without any problems at all.

Yyyyyyup. Even if those things are from other realities, it'd be a zero-case and therefore not risk anything.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011

ErichZahn posted:

Are you sure? Last I checked Posthuman and Catalyst parted ways.

I might be working on old info by now, so if I'm wrong it would be far from the most surprising thing in the world.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!

Evil Mastermind posted:

Ultimately it comes off as a lack of trust of the players. They seem to feel that OF COURSE everyone's going to make cybermagical T-Rexes if they can because the whole point of an RPG is to win, right? Gotta reign in those PCs or they might get too powerful!

Case in point: Nile Empire characters have access to pulp powers. Getting a power costs Possibilities of course, but you also have to keep paying out at the end of every adventure or you lose the power forever. Oh, and if you don't use the power at least once during an adventure you'd lose it forever. poo poo like spells and cybernetics, though? Those are one-and-done. You buy spells for a flat Possibility cost, and cyber just costs money. And both of those are way more powerful than pulp powers.
What kills me about it is that it's pain in the rear end to everybody. It doesn't just stop you from making a wizard zombie ninja dinosaur monkey cheese, I can't even play a pulp hero killing robots or a vampire slaying soldier without the game trying to cram a bunch of dumb situational rules up my rear end. And this is a game where the basic settings are already combining genres, then combining that genre with a region on earth.

(Question: Orrorsh in Indonesia. One, why is it called that? Two, doesn't everybody get really, really hot in Victorian clothing?)

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Halloween Jack posted:

(Question: Orrorsh in Indonesia. One, why is it called that? Two, doesn't everybody get really, really hot in Victorian clothing?)

It's "horrors" with the h moved to the end.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Halloween Jack posted:

What kills me about it is that it's pain in the rear end to everybody. It doesn't just stop you from making a wizard zombie ninja dinosaur monkey cheese, I can't even play a pulp hero killing robots or a vampire slaying soldier without the game trying to cram a bunch of dumb situational rules up my rear end. And this is a game where the basic settings are already combining genres, then combining that genre with a region on earth.
When I made my Nile Empire PI character, I wanted her to be someone who always gets the weird supernatural cases and managed to get her hands on a tome of spells; basically getting Pulp Sorcery, which lets you fake other pulp powers. However, it turns out that this would have cost me 6 Possibilities plus a reduced cost for the powers I wanted. Each power tends to cost about 4 or 5 points per adventure. So if I had three powers in the tome, that'd be about 12-15 Possibilities I'd have to pay out at the end of every adventure to keep my tome, or it just stops working forever.

quote:

(Question: Orrorsh in Indonesia. One, why is it called that? Two, doesn't everybody get really, really hot in Victorian clothing?)
Technically the original world is called Gaea, Orrorsh is what the Gaunt Man named it. (spoiler: Orrorsh is technically an anagram of "horrors"! :ssh:)

I'm sure they do get hot, but the main reason the Victorians are sticking around is White Man's Burden; they're there to protect these ignorant backwater darkies from the terrors from another world, donchewknow.

And yes, the Victorians are just starting to come around to the idea that the natives are actually more technologically advanced than they are, but it's still hard for them to wrap their heads around the concept. Again: 300 years of social stagnation.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Evil Mastermind posted:

When I made my Nile Empire PI character, I wanted her to be someone who always gets the weird supernatural cases and managed to get her hands on a tome of spells; basically getting Pulp Sorcery, which lets you fake other pulp powers. However, it turns out that this would have cost me 6 Possibilities plus a reduced cost for the powers I wanted. Each power tends to cost about 4 or 5 points per adventure. So if I had three powers in the tome, that'd be about 12-15 Possibilities I'd have to pay out at the end of every adventure to keep my tome, or it just stops working forever.

Pulp powers sound like a giant trap. Why on earth would anyone want them unless they're super powerful?

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Kurieg posted:

Pulp powers sound like a giant trap. Why on earth would anyone want them unless they're super powerful?

Here's the thing: they're really not. I talked about it my first time through the Nile Empire book, but the powers are very narrow in scope, have tech levels (so you can disconnect while using them, just like everything else), and require you to pay out constantly.

Like, let's take the basic flight power. All it does it let you fly. Period. No roll or anything, it just happens. That costs you 3 Possibilities per adventure. If you don't pay out, or don't use the power, then you lose it forever.

The Flight spell, on the other hand, only costs you one Possibility up front to write it in your spellbook, and that's it. The only cost beyond that point is the skill roll to cast. Yeah, there's a backlash mechanic, but that hardly balances out against the other guy who has to pay 3 XP every mission to keep his power.

Second Example: Super-hearing, the power, costs 3 Possibilities per adventure. The rough equivalent in cyberware would cost you about $10k and that's it. Again, yes there's a limit to how cyber-y you can get, but at the end of the day that's nowhere as big a problem as having to constantly spend XP.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

Kurieg posted:

Pulp powers sound like a giant trap. Why on earth would anyone want them unless they're super powerful?

Everything about TORG sounds like a giant trap to be honest. Skimming over these writeups it falls into the same category as Rifts, namely dramatically overcomplicating and over-crufting what should be a very simple process of "take a dozen nerdy things from your video collection and/or toybox, stick in a blender, done."

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!
I don't know how well this maps to TORG itself, but the Masterbook system had a really clunky (if simple) system for handling superpowers that aren't spells. Basically, it has an Advantages & Disadvantages system, and they're leveled by "Categories"from I-IV with only rough guides as to what constitutes a Category II vs. a Category III advantage, and so on. (It's not just for powers, it also covers things like having a magic sword, an armory of guns, a military rank, or tons of money.) Most of the pulp superpowers (I've skimmed the Nile sourcebook) would be a Category III or IV advantage. I know we're talking about somewhat different systems here, but what I'm getting at is that the WEG designers were accustomed to overcharging PCs for fairly minor superpowers.

It's ironic that they ended up doing a DC Universe game that covered everything from Robin to Superman and the Flash.

Edit: By the way, Torg is now owned by Ulisses Spiele, a company that publishes Das Schwarze Auge (The Dark Eye) and stuff for Pathfinder, Iron Kingdoms, and Warmachine. They've sat on the copyright for quite some time, but according to DriveThru they're going to produce new Torg stuff in 2015.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jan 8, 2015

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
I know Shane Hensley's done some blue-sky talking about wanting to do TORG in Savage Worlds before, since he used to work on the line (And on Bloodshadows for Masterbook.)

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Halloween Jack posted:

I don't know how well this maps to TORG itself, but the Masterbook system had a really clunky (if simple) system for handling superpowers that aren't spells. Basically, it has an Advantages & Disadvantages system, and they're leveled by "Categories"from I-IV with only rough guides as to what constitutes a Category II vs. a Category III advantage, and so on. (It's not just for powers, it also covers things like having a magic sword, an armory of guns, a military rank, or tons of money.) Most of the pulp superpowers (I've skimmed the Nile sourcebook) would be a Category III or IV advantage. I know we're talking about somewhat different systems here, but what I'm getting at is that the WEG designers were accustomed to overcharging PCs for fairly minor superpowers.

It's ironic that they ended up doing a DC Universe game that covered everything from Robin to Superman and the Flash.
That's a different system from Torg powers. In Torg, powers don't have "ranks" or anything, you just buy them. And keep buying them.

quote:

Edit: By the way, Torg is now owned by Ulisses Spiele, a company that publishes Das Schwarze Auge (The Dark Eye) and stuff for Pathfinder, Iron Kingdoms, and Warmachine. They've sat on the copyright for quite some time, but according to DriveThru they're going to produce new Torg stuff in 2015.

Yeah, as it stands right now all the old Torg products except some of the novels are available on DriveThru.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks
Anyone have a good idea why CP2020 went with making up "Night City" instead of using one of the actual West Coast cities? That was always something that annoyed me.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Evil Mastermind posted:

Ultimately it comes off as a lack of trust of the players. They seem to feel that OF COURSE everyone's going to make cybermagical T-Rexes if they can because the whole point of an RPG is to win, right? Gotta reign in those PCs or they might get too powerful!

Also note: Cybermagical T-Rexes sound rad and if your game has the reasonable possibility to make them, maybe your game would be better served by having cybermagical T-Rexes. Like, that's what kills me. Genre blending and being a fish out of water with weird abilities is like goddamn point of dimension hopping!

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
I also seem to remember that even if the faith axiom of the culture you're in is high enough if your faith is different you still invoke disconnection by using your differently faithed powers. Where as a high magic axiom just lets whatever happen no matter where you learned how to do it.

Like is there any way in which the Living Land is not the worst possible place to start a character?

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Kurieg posted:

I also seem to remember that even if the faith axiom of the culture you're in is high enough if your faith is different you still invoke disconnection by using your differently faithed powers. Where as a high magic axiom just lets whatever happen no matter where you learned how to do it.
Yes, incompatible religious beliefs can cause problems, but I don't think you can disconnect from that.

quote:

Like is there any way in which the Living Land is not the worst possible place to start a character?
Not really, no.

In all honesty, WEG had no loving idea what to do with the Living Land apart from making Baruk Kaah the setting's whipping boy. Hell, only about half of the Living Land sourcebook was about the Living Land.

I mean, you'd think it'd be pretty awesome: Jurrasic Park meets Land of the Lost, how can you gently caress that up? Answer: by gimping characters who come from there, and not having anything interesting happen in the Land besides people doing supply runs, and ignoring how loving terrifying the place should be. In a poll at the end of the game line, Living Land was the least popular cosm by a pretty wide margin.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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How the hell can you take a world of dinosaurs, doom lizards and endless, mighty jungle and make it both boring and unlikable?

Come on, guys.

Also why would you not have your literal lizard god-king not be a terrifying figure

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Mors Rattus posted:

How the hell can you take a world of dinosaurs, doom lizards and endless, mighty jungle and make it both boring and unlikable?

Come on, guys.
Because the Torg writers were utterly incapable of writing tone. 90% of the setting info is just mechanics and gazeteers, but there's very little on how to make each reality's foibles come alive.

I mean, take the Living Land. This is a reality that is composed of a hostile jungle perpetually covered in a thick fog that confounds all attempts to find your way through. Technology doesn't just not work, "unliving" things rot to dust in a matter of days; a car will be a rust stain on the dirt within a week. Actual dinosaurs and stranger, alien beings stalk the mists, and they see you as nothing but food. The edinos, the native inhabitants, are all fanatical followers of the goddess Lanala. They believe that Lanala has been cut off from the world she created, so they worship her by never using "dead things" (like rocks) as tools, and by feeling the sensations of the world for her.

The play of light on a dewdrop on a leaf is a prayer to Lanala. The feeling of wind on your face as you run is a is a prayer to Lanala.

The pain of a spear tip entering your lung is a prayer to Lanala. The shock of the impact of your weapon stabbing your opponent in the head is a prayer to Lanala.

And the edinos are very religious.

The books barely say any of that.

quote:

Also why would you not have your literal lizard god-king not be a terrifying figure
He was at first, but he very quickly devolved into a joke because, again, they didn't seem to know what to do with him.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Kemper Boyd posted:

Anyone have a good idea why CP2020 went with making up "Night City" instead of using one of the actual West Coast cities? That was always something that annoyed me.

Probably as so not to irritate/break immersion with the people who actually live in those cities by getting things wrong?

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!
Cities are hard to get right, especially if you're not from that city or aren't from a large city at all. Extrapolating into a city's cyberpunk future without doing a ridiculous job of it is even harder.

Kai Tave posted:

I'll be honest, a number of conditions that people make up for Monsterhearts remind me of that guy who makes Fate aspects based on how cool he thinks they sound, not whether or not they convey what they're intended to represent appropriately.
Coming back to this again, I am finding that a lot (a lot) of homebrew Skins are based entirely around a gameplay tactic of "Apply specialty Condition, exploit it." Bonus if it's something esoteric that other PCs and NPCs can't reasonably use.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 8, 2015

Hostile V
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Which is a bummer because like King Koopa in the Mario movie, he is the literal king of the dinosaurs. He is a warlord. He is a multiversal plunderer of cosms. He is literally worthy of the name "tyrannosaurus rex" and doesn't even have those little stubby arms. There's a lot you can do with that but instead he probably gets made a fool of like constantly like he's a Jonny Quest bad guy.

Young Freud
Nov 26, 2006

Kemper Boyd posted:

Anyone have a good idea why CP2020 went with making up "Night City" instead of using one of the actual West Coast cities? That was always something that annoyed me.

Pondsmith grew up in Oakland, CA, and R. Talsorian was based out of Berkley, so Night City being the wrong side of San Francisco made some since they grew up there and were familiar with it. If you look at the city map, it's pretty much a dead-on with the SF metro area, with the exception that the Tenderloin is now further south and much larger.

Robindaybird posted:

Probably as so not to irritate/break immersion with the people who actually live in those cities by getting things wrong?

I think I remember Pondsmith citing this as well. When he moved up to Washington when working at Microsoft in the late 90s, he made a lot of notices that FASA screwed up a lot of in the portrayal of Seattle, which is understandable since they were pretty much located in Chicago during the first 3 editions.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

pkfan2004 posted:

Which is a bummer because like King Koopa in the Mario movie, he is the literal king of the dinosaurs. He is a warlord. He is a multiversal plunderer of cosms. He is literally worthy of the name "tyrannosaurus rex" and doesn't even have those little stubby arms. There's a lot you can do with that but instead he probably gets made a fool of like constantly like he's a Jonny Quest bad guy.

More or less, yeah. He's definitely stuck holding the Idiot Ball through the whole game line. He has no real allies, his Darkness Device hates him and is trying to replace him, and he drat near publicly violates the worship of Lanala all the time.

Hell, in the first year alone he actually loses two of his three bridges and most of the associated territory. He's the only High Lord who really suffers any major setbacks throughout the whole line.

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FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually
Living Land was also the first book in the line, and I think the mechanical blandness of the setting was intentional (its a pretty simple cosm without too many moving parts). Basically, they were figuring the game out as it went along, and they needed to successfully establish a no-frills setting book before moving on to make books with magic spell construction systems and pulp equipment and cyberdecking and all that.

I remember reading that the original GURPS playtest setting was a low-tech post-apocalypse world so it was just the skill system and basic combat - no firearms, no magic, no psi, no robots, no spaceships - so they could make sure the basic systems of the game worked before they started piling on more crunch. I suspect Torg's first setting was the way it was for much thesame reason.

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