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Crazy Achmed posted:You're right, but I was thinking more of those times when someone decides to lunge from extension distance. I guess you should still be getting the hell out of dodge if you see that coming at you, though. I protect my flank with 2, because I can't count to eight.  Sabre joke. kznlol posted:I did Fencing in high school (I was a weird rich kid at a weird rich kid's school), and my abiding memory is that it did actually hurt (not enormously, but enough to be more than simply unpleasant) to get hit, even with foils, let alone epee/sabre. It is entirely possible we had badly fitted equipment and whatnot, though. Starting with the French grip can be used for a number of reasons by coaches. There is likely something to forcing the action to come from the fingers rather than the wrist, but, even still, newer caches are starting to break way from that. You're definitely find coaches nowadays quickly getting their student into using pistol grips, because, in the end, that's what most will use, outside of a handful of epee pommellers. The second is funny because it was a question similar to what Achmed had in the martial arts thread that caused this thread. The simply answer is muscle memory with a good bit of intuition. Is my opponent doing a beat from outside? Probably going to attack my outside line. Even the exchange posted by Gadamer is is relatively simple.Chamley-Watson parries (lateral) 7 and ripostes with a flick to the back. Once you're no longer thinking "drop the tip, move hand, and lock tip," you're parries will get much quicker.
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Jan 14, 2015 19:03
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Crazy Achmed posted:
Octave is more versatile and safer imo
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Jan 14, 2015 19:37
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Stabbychat: Do you think that separating tournaments by gender is an appropriate thing to do in fencing? What about a woman's tournament and a unisex tournament both as an option? This is apparently a hotbutton issue on the historical swordfighting group I read.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:24
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Zeitgueist posted:Stabbychat: Do you think that separating tournaments by gender is an appropriate thing to do in fencing? What about a woman's tournament and a unisex tournament both as an option? It is in kendo for most tournaments in the adult categories. While it's mostly a technical discipline, strength and speed are still significant factors.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:40
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Thanks Achmed for starting the thread. Novice epee fencer in Melbourne Australia checking in. Fencing twice a week plus a couple of local tournaments last year. Stabbychat: We were taught octave for outside low line with an occasional mention of seconde, could be our school or instructor preference, or just the fact we're too rubbish as yet for seconde. Are there particular situations where seconde would definitely be a better choice? In our tournaments where the attendance is low, the poules and DEs are both mixed but the awards are gender-separated. Joining in on the flick hater bandwagon.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:50
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Without starting a goon sexual dimorphism holy war, my own opinion is that it's not appropriate. I don't feel that men or women have a particular advantage, at least in historical fighting, which is what I do. One of the most dominant fighters in some of my groups recently was a woman, and I've found that if anything, women tend to be the faster fighters. Strength doesn't seem to come into play as the swords are only a couple of pounds, and if you're stuck wrestling in a longsword/arming sword bind, you're doing it wrong.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:56
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Zeitgueist posted:Strength doesn't seem to come into play as the swords are only a couple of pounds. Without even taking the sword into account (it's only 500grams in kendo), men are faster. Pounds for pound, men can generate more force, can accelerate faster and generate higher speeds.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:22
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Crazy Achmed posted:There's a kendo club that uses a room at the gym directly above where I usually fence. I always see them on the way to training and am pretty curious about the structure, techniques and rules. thrakkorzog posted:Right of way makes sense, if you consider not being stabbed is more important than stabbing someone else. After all, if you get stabbed, you're kind of hosed, but if you can stab someone without getting stabbed yourself then you're golden. In Kendo, your middle guard stance points to the throat, so it is entirely possible to impale your opponent if they come in recklessly. However, despite this, great players in Kendo are able to move in and strike without getting hit themselves. Here's an example of "ippon" compilations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaObX3mcy-I Note that in most cases, the players are able to pick the right time to strike their opponents when they're caught unaware, or got "tricked" into moving somewhere vulnerable. Also note that these are mostly old farts - younger players fight faster and more aggressively. One of the criteria for a score in Kendo is having "awareness", i.e. you can't finish a hit with a super cool pose, but rather you need to position yourself in a way that your opponent is not able to attack you - generally by running past them, away from them, or running in close to go into a "guard-lock" position. I guess essentially a "right of way" in Kendo exists as well, but it's not part of the rules - just that it has a direct impact on judging whether your strike scores or not. Here's a question - Kendo is mostly two-handed, so as a result we fight square-on facing the opponent. The left hand holds the sword at the bottom, and the right hand just under the guard. Generally it is said that "left hand is power, right hand in control" - because using the right hand for power results in a "bashing" motion, as opposed to slicing. If Kendo players must choose a hand to fight with, I think most would pick their left. Fencing however, only uses one hand. While I'm right-handed, my left hand is stronger. What sort of benefits/difficulties would I have with left-handed fencing? Should I try switch around and learn to fence with both hands (so I can reenact The Princess Bride)? Another thing to keep in mind is that in Kendo, the left foot is behind the right, and is the one doing all the pushing. However since fencing is fought sideways, and thus the back foot is perpendicular to the line, I'm not sure which side would be better. Any advice? Thanks again for the thread and sorry for the questions.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:30
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Men are not automatically better fencers, but the divide in physicality would let a less talented man beat a much more talented woman. The gender divide is much clearer in epée and sabre imo, but it's still a big factor in foil. You'll even see it in WS when a smaller girl fences, she tries a lovely parry but her blade is blasted back into her face by a hippo in britches. Vezzali is probably one of the greatest fencers of all time in either gender. That said, I can't see her beating any of the top 20 or so men even at her peak. 
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Jan 15, 2015 02:33
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I'm not dealing with athletes in top physical condition though. I realize I said I didn't specify, but I don't know that I expect the high end modern fencing world to change, I'm thinking more along the lines of casual or historical fencing where you have a mix of skills and conditions. One of the top fencers in my class is a 5'2" 90lb woman. Sure, the 6'5" guy with crazy long arms gives her fits but that's also true of the teacher who is stronger but not much taller than her.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:38
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Zeitgueist posted:I'm not dealing with athletes in top physical condition though. There will always be exceptions but even at club level if you mixed all the boys and girls and took into account years of fencing on average the buckeens would win. Not saying guys are more inherently talented, just that usually they have too much brute force and speed.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:47
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Zeitgueist posted:I'm not dealing with athletes in top physical condition though. No, but with all other things being equal, the men will win. So, if you are having a tournament and the idea is to make skill the key determining factor in who wins, then you need to segregate the genders. Now, I've competed in anything from tiny local competitions to big internationals* and typically the smaller comps will be mixed and as they grow and have enough female competitors to make it worthwhile to have a separate category, so it really depends on what you are trying to achieve with the tournament. *And yeah, I've been beaten by women too.
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Jan 15, 2015 03:00
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I'm going to drop because I don't want it to take over the thread, but I've found that more often than not the physicality that tends to matter in historical fencing is height and reach. I don't know if that's true of modern fencing or Kendo, I have no experience with either. I've seen tall fighters with long range do very well against more skilled fighters. I'm not sure if a 6'5" guy versus a 5'2" person matters if the shorter person is a man or a woman. Presumably a tall women would have similar advantages(and I've seen that in action).
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Jan 15, 2015 03:12
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Tsunemori posted:... Fencing, in the sense of foil/sabre/epee is much more about speed and control than power. If you fence righty long enough what you'll probably find is that your right arm catches up to your left in terms of strength just from using it that much more, but the control you're used to exerting with it will be a big advantage over trying to use the stronger, less refined left arm. Also, and this is from watching the video you posted, the stances look fairly similar. Right foot is forward and pointed towards the opponent. Left foot is behind, though I can't see which way it's pointing. If you're going forward in fencing and you're right handed, the left foot is still the one doing all the pushing unless you're maybe doing some kind of cross-over movement with the legs. Basically fencing left handed will be awkward as hell at first because you'll have to put your right foot back and now everything is on the opposite side of what you're used to. Try switching your grip and stance in kendo for an idea of what that might feel like. In the long run if you fence left handed you'll probably wind up with a bit more versatility in that you'll be able to fence decently well on either side. If you fence right handed you'll be even better at all the right handed stuff you're already doing anyway. Buried alive fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 04:59
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Zeitgueist posted:Stabbychat: Do you think that separating tournaments by gender is an appropriate thing to do in fencing? What about a woman's tournament and a unisex tournament both as an option? Which group is that? From what I've seen, most people in HEMA are ok with a separate women's tournament along with a unisex tournament. The pool for women is generally smaller, and they have a fairly similar ratio of good to bad fencers that the men do. While it's true that a weapon equalizes the playing field, there are some distinct advantages I think men have overall regarding physicality, and many times (at least from what I've seen) it's attribute fighters dominating the upper level of the playing field in unisex tournaments (that is dudes who are really tall, have really long reach, are really fast and really strong without necessarily showing a lot of technique). They don't usually win against the really, REALLY technical fencers, but they do have a presence in the semi finals. It takes a lot of technique to overcome really strong attributes, especially against someone who trains to fight in tournaments rather than trains to fight accurately. That being said, some of the most technical fencers I know are women, and one of whom is a world champion at sword and buckler. You can see a great video of her fighting against an attribute fighter for the gold in 2011. She's pure technique, especially apparent against her opponent's obvious attribute fencing. At one point he hits her in the arm so hard it fractures, but she goes on to win the fight regardless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7bh9RHfOnI
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Jan 15, 2015 06:36
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Verisimilidude posted:Which group is that? Good post and I agree with a lot of it. I read the HEMA Alliance facebook group from time to time, and I remember reading somebody comment that they should ban discussion of contentious issues like women's tournaments. Anyhow, my thought was that I"d be for unisex tournaments at the current stage of maturity in the community because while tall long fighters have an advantage, and men tend to be taller, they also have an advantage over men and that's just the nature of things, like how tall folks have a natural advantage at basketball. A really skilled fighter can lose to someone who's fast and has range, and separating tournaments isn't going to change that. I agree if we were talking a developed sport with a high tier of people all at roughly the same level, like olympic fencing, minor physiological differences would probably come into play but I don't think the community is anywhere near there.
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Jan 15, 2015 07:01
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Tsunemori posted:Here's a question - Kendo is mostly two-handed, so as a result we fight square-on facing the opponent. The left hand holds the sword at the bottom, and the right hand just under the guard. Generally it is said that "left hand is power, right hand in control" - because using the right hand for power results in a "bashing" motion, as opposed to slicing. If Kendo players must choose a hand to fight with, I think most would pick their left. Left handed fencers can punch above their weight when it comes to fencing, since their body is on the "wrong side" compared to right handed fencers. Right Handed fencers are used to dueling with other right handed fencers. It's usually a right to left motion to score a point. In the rare case of a southpaw showing up, the southpaw has an advantage because most fencers aren't really used to going left to right to score a hit. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 12:08
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So, how many of you have a sharpened sword for dispatching villains in real life? If not, why not?
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Jan 15, 2015 12:48
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Zeitgueist posted:I'm going to drop because I don't want it to take over the thread, but I've found that more often than not the physicality that tends to matter in historical fencing is height and reach. I don't know if that's true of modern fencing or Kendo, I have no experience with either. Skill, guile and reaction time are just as important as brute strength and speed if you just fence one or twice a week like I do. Reach too, especially for epee... On a related note, I don't know if the same thing is emphasised as much on kendo, but leverage is a huge thing in fencing. If you contact the upper, more flexible part ("foible") of your opponent's blade with the lower, stronger part of yours ("forte"), the physics are such that they can never overpower you unless you gently caress up. There's a neat little example I always like to show newbies: engage their forte to my foible, and then I try to move their weapon. Even with me using both hands, it's pretty much impossible for me to move theirs. Incidentally, this is the other reason why we drill the same parries over and over again - they work. Parry properly and you have complete control over where your opponent's blade is pointing. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 14:06
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Also, yes, left-handers are usually more difficult for most people to fence because everything's mirrored from what they're used to. The power vs control thing doesn't come into play quite as much given the leverage stuff that I mentioned earlier, and also given sport fencing's origins in dueling to first blood rather than the death. Given kendo's origins in cutting people in half with a samurai sword, needing to finish your attack in a position where you can't be hit sounds like a pretty sensible rule  There's definitely some asymmetry at work in my body, too. My right side (weapon arm) serratus muscles are a bit more developed, and if I am climbing up on to something I'll instinctively put my left leg on it first and use it to lift my body up, like coming up from a squat. I don't have any sharpened swords, but I do have an old foil that I plan to sand clean, cut off the tip and blunt the end, then season with olive oil and use it to make giant kebabs. Also, the princess bride is pretty much required viewing for any aspiring fencer. It's a pity, though, that the younger guys at my club don't know the insult swordfighting lines from monkey island...
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Jan 15, 2015 14:52
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Zeitgueist posted:Good post and I agree with a lot of it. I read the HEMA Alliance facebook group from time to time, and I remember reading somebody comment that they should ban discussion of contentious issues like women's tournaments. Oh boy, I finally gave up on that place maybe a month or two ago. Are you going to Longpoint this year? If so we should get drunk and wrassle. Bitter Mushroom posted:So, how many of you have a sharpened sword for dispatching villains in real life? If not, why not? Oh boy do I! I mean, it's not for dispatching anything but tatami mats, but it does a great job at that.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:18
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Crazy Achmed posted:There's definitely some asymmetry at work in my body, too. My right side (weapon arm) serratus muscles are a bit more developed, and if I am climbing up on to something I'll instinctively put my left leg on it first and use it to lift my body up, like coming up from a squat. 
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Jan 15, 2015 18:21
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My sharp is hidden inside a cane that is styled to match my fedora. Look out, ruffians.
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Jan 15, 2015 18:45
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Zeitgueist posted:I agree if we were talking a developed sport with a high tier of people all at roughly the same level, like olympic fencing, minor physiological differences would probably come into play but I don't think the community is anywhere near there. Just take a look at these two videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC1O2zoc2II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrNUXXdfS4A The men are clearly faster, move better and have way faster weapon speed. In kendo this is somewhat compensated for with the women being allowed to use a lighter shinai. As for height/reach: A taller opponent can hit you before you can hit him. Now, in general, this is something that can be overcome with skill and tactics and there's been several famous 'short' kendo players, so it's by no means a deciding factor.
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Jan 15, 2015 19:22
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ImplicitAssembler posted:The men are clearly faster, move better and have way faster weapon speed. In kendo this is somewhat compensated for with the women being allowed to use a lighter shinai. I said I was going to stop but I don't get the sense that this is at all a thread destroying conversation, so I'll keep responding. I don't feel that "move better" is a gender-based thing, I think that's footwork training and technique, and I can't imagine there's a specific biometric reason men would "move better. I also don't know that the men are significantly quicker than the women, maybe slightly but not a massive difference. Here's a quick unisex bout in rapier from the first SoCal swordfight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVmxMbeuleU I don't feel that the woman is any slower here, and she does win the match against a taller, presumably stronger opponent. Verisimilidude posted:Oh boy, I finally gave up on that place maybe a month or two ago. Are you going to Longpoint this year? If so we should get drunk and wrassle. I'm west coast.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:22
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Zeitgueist posted:I don't feel that "move better" is a gender-based thing, I think that's footwork training and technique, and I can't imagine there's a specific biometric reason men would "move better. I was referring specifically to the 2 videos I posted.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:46
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ImplicitAssembler posted:I was referring specifically to the 2 videos I posted. Right, I'm saying I'm not sure why that would be relevant to the gender discussion....if folks move better, I would assume they are better trained.
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Jan 15, 2015 21:09
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Bitter Mushroom posted:So, how many of you have a sharpened sword for dispatching villains in real life? If not, why not? Around here it's just easier to just to get a concealed gun permit and a gun, and law enforcement will go easier on you than if you carry a butterfly knife or anything approximating a sword, with a possible exception of machetes for gardeners. You can carry a 9mm in your pocket, and with the right papers, no cop is going to arrest you just for carrying a gun. Getting busted with a swordcane, brass knuckles, or a switchblade is usually a one way ticket to jail though. It's dumb, but what can you do? I've also got a kitchen drawer filled with knives designed to remove flesh from bones in the odd case somebody tries break in. Which is statistically unlikely. If I just wanted to be some internet tough guy, I'd go get a gun and a concealed carry permit. Or maybe study Krav Maga or Muai Thai, and get my fists registered as lethal weapons, because I'm that badass. Or I can just admit that I'm probably never gonna be the guy that happens to be in the other room when terrorists take over Nakatomi Plaza, but fencing is a pretty fun way to get some exercise. Crazy Achmed posted:Also, the princess bride is pretty much required viewing for any aspiring fencer. It's a pity, though, that the younger guys at my club don't know the insult swordfighting lines from monkey island... How appropriate, you fight like a cow. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 11:48
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This all sounds pretty fun. What socal clubs do you recommend for a "never even done anything similar" beginner?
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Jan 17, 2015 01:01
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Epee Fencer checking in. Why Epee? You have a longer competitive shelf life. Foil is dominated by very tiny 14 year olds. Saber is too crazy pants. There are older epee fencers who are still competitive at the national levels.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:09
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Stolennosferatu posted:This all sounds pretty fun. What socal clubs do you recommend for a "never even done anything similar" beginner? I got into it myself through my university club, they are a pretty social bunch and didn't mind that I wasn't a student (I'd just graduated and figured that I should do some sort of sport now that I had done semblance of free time). There's also an old joke that there aren't really any fencing clubs, just drinking clubs that have a fencing problem.
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Jan 17, 2015 12:31
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BirdOfPlay posted:I protect my flank with 2, because I can't count to eight.
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Jan 17, 2015 14:18
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For someone who is more familiar with Hollywood sword fights its amazing how short and undramatic both HEMA and fencing bouts are. Both seem to end roughly half a second after the participants are in range of each other. I'm sure for the knowledgeable there's a lot of skill on display but if there is it's happening too fast for me to follow. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 16:01
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Rent-A-Cop posted:For someone who is more familiar with Hollywood sword fights its amazing how short and undramatic both HEMA and fencing bouts are. Both seem to end roughly half a second after the participants are in range of each other. This does bring up an interesting point, though - I've yet to see a really well-commentated fencing match. There was some token effort made at the last Olympics to explain what was going on, who the participants were and point out any particularly interesting moves, etc. If someone did decent commentary, I'd watch a lot more fencing, kendo, HEMA etc.
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Jan 18, 2015 08:03
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I had my first kendo practice yesterday after breaking my foot back in August. I'm now fat(ter) & slow(er) and can't breathe. Sensei apologized for not putting me in the 'competitors' group, but frankly, I was very very grateful.
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Jan 18, 2015 08:50
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Crazy Achmed posted:As I mentioned before, next time you see a Hollywood sword fight, think about whether the people are trying to hit each other, or just trying to hit each other's weapons... King is awful but Bashir is pretty good
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Jan 18, 2015 20:00
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For anyone who cares, Imboden got gold and Massialas got bronze Challenge International de Paris. Steam link.
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Jan 18, 2015 20:11
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Stolennosferatu posted:This all sounds pretty fun. What socal clubs do you recommend for a "never even done anything similar" beginner? Where in SoCal are you, and what are you looking for? Historical or Modern? (if historical) Longsword or rapier?
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Jan 19, 2015 04:27
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Zeitgueist posted:I said I was going to stop but I don't get the sense that this is at all a thread destroying conversation, so I'll keep responding. I will quickly point out that this bout is from the first round, where, typically, higher seeded competitors fence against significantly lower seeded ones. Also, the woman appears to be a much better fencer, especially at the technically level. She moves more comfortably and is in control of the bout for its entirety. As to the point of contention, yes there is a difference between men and women, and high level competitions should be separated. There are some pretty basic physiological differences between men and women and to pretend otherwise hinders one gender's development over another, typically women. If you look at the current world records for runs, the women's times are slower than the men's. In fact, for the 100 m, mile, and marathon, no woman makes it into the men's top ten results. Crazy Achmed posted:Waaaait a minute, is that actually a sabre thing? My coach is a sabreur and he loves seconde for that. I find it a bit slower than octave, just because I have to spin my wrist from supinated to pronated. Yes, 2 covers flank, or inside low line, and, for sabre, is the only one that does so. After 4 the numbers for sabre and the point weapons no longer line up. Hell, sabre has two less parries than the others, with 7 instead of 9. Thinking technically, using 2 in sabre doesn't have the same limitations as it does in the other because it's a cutting weapon. A cut to back is a pretty quick riposte from 2.
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Jan 19, 2015 06:05
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nvm HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 08:03
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